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Solong said:
However, I find it curious that if men speak out about their personal experiences, a lot of "white knighting" starts to happen. And it seems that instead of debating openly, some or a lot of this happens behind the scenes. I'm wondering if it's to silence opinions they disagree with.
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Personal opinion is not the same as conjecture. I see you doing quite a lot of the latter. Step back and consider your position here: this is a punting forum. You presumably have significant disposable income to spend on women who wouldn't normally fuck you. And you're complaining about being taken advantage of for your money? It's YOUR money! Don't give it away if you don't want to! Not for love, sex, affection, nothing! If a woman wants to drain your wallet, don't you think the first step would be dumping her and finding a woman who doesn't want to do that?

Men who can't find a woman who doesn't want anything but their money might want to consider that money might be their only redeeming quality.
 
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johnnyboy84 said:
Our jobs just transferred us to places that forced us apart and that experience really devastated me. Even after 3 years, I am going through it.
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That is a tough fallout man. There's another one out there for you. Don't give up.
 
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TheDutchElm said:
Personal opinion is not the same as conjecture. I see you doing quite a lot of the latter. Step back and consider your position here: this is a punting forum. You presumably have significant disposable income to spend on women who wouldn't normally fuck you. And you're complaining about being taken advantage of for your money? It's YOUR money! Don't give it away if you don't want to! Not for love, sex, affection, nothing! If a woman wants to drain your wallet, don't you think the first step would be dumping her and finding a woman who doesn't want to do that?

Men who can't find a woman who doesn't want anything but their money might want to consider that money might be their only redeeming quality.
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Well said.

Separately:

For every terrible woman there is an equal man to match her position. How long have women taken the abuse form *some* men? I think it's just equalizing in some form or fashion.

I feel sorry for the lot of men out there that are jilted and jaded.

Please keep these threads civil and don't go attacking each other for views you may or may not share equally.
We do not want to deal with putting people into moderation or locking threads.
We will do so if things begin to get out of hand.
 
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Yes, please don't get me wrong: men definitely get abused and exploited. And that abuse and exploitation is under-reported for the same reasons female abuse is under-reported: shame. Shame at potentially being put down and shunned by other men for being weak (read: feminine). In short, traditional gender roles hurt everyone regardless of sex, which is why I stack my chips on the feminist side of the table.

I think what I find a bit worrisome is exactly what meiji pointed out: that sex and relationships are being framed as a war game in which only one side can win when it's obvious (at least to me) that this is not an optimal solution for anyone involved. But I think it's worth reiterating that if a common thread of exploitation or bad behavior plagues all of your relationships (of any type), it might be worth stepping back and wondering if there's a commonality. Is it your personality? Your approach? Your values (or lack thereof)? These are questions worth asking before jumping to the conclusion that you're at war with the opposite sex.
 
@TheDutchElm

I'm not one to be politically correct or feel the need to white knight for those that wouldn't spit on a man if he was on fire. But with that stated, I don't go out my way to start any beef and I do try to be polite to others.

I think everyone should be allowed to give their opinions and experiences freely. That is where arguably here has value.

We should be mindful that not everyone is a punter, only does punting, or that's the only way that they interact with women. Each person has their own style and preferences.

It's also about ROI (Return on Investment). And what level is acceptable is different for everyone. A man, a woman, or a customer has every right to express how they feel about a service or experience.

Here is also the "Dating & Relationships" section, so isn't only about punting.
 
You'll never have to knock someone off a pedestal if you've never put them there to begin with. That's why I've never understood misogyny. Misanthropy? Yeah, I can get behind that.
 
@Solong

I think I was pretty specific that the "money grubber" problem is not limited to punting. Your resources, as you rightly point out, are yours to spend. When guys gripe about women mistreating them in relationships they choose to be in, I don't have much sympathy. When someone repeatedly puts themselves in that situation and then claims women, as a class of people, are the culprit for their bitterness and objectification of the same, I have even less. This is a cycle that can be broken by self-examination and a reassessment of personal values and the kind of woman they want to associate with.

I want to impress is that male-female relations are not a defacto war. The PUA narrative that asserts that and labels any guy who doesn't buy into it as a "gamma male" loser is insulting to both men and women who value equal representation and respect in hetero-normative relationships.
 
TheDutchElm said:
@Solong

I think I was pretty specific that the "money grubber" problem is not limited to punting. Your resources, as you rightly point out, are yours to spend. When guys gripe about women mistreating them in relationships they choose to be in, I don't have much sympathy. When someone repeatedly puts themselves in that situation and then claims women, as a class of people, are the culprit for their bitterness and objectification of the same, I have even less. This is a cycle that can be broken by self-examination and a reassessment of personal values and the kind of woman they want to associate with.

I want to impress is that male-female relations are not a defacto war. The PUA narrative that asserts that and labels any guy who doesn't buy into it as a "gamma male" loser is insulting to both men and women who value equal representation and respect in hetero-normative relationships.
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I can understand where you are coming from, but politely disagree with various statements you have made.

1) Every person has the right to make an assessment, complain, or review the level and quality of service they have paid for.

Your argument seems to be shut up and tolerate ANY level of service given by a P4P provider. I hope that's not the argument you are putting forth.

2) Your view of male-female relationships is NOT the view of all other men and women, or the only one.

It would be great if we can accept differences and diversity of opinion.

3) There is no PUA narrative, as I'm not PUA. If you must forcibly place a label on me, the closest would be a swinger or polyamorous. And there are some very distinct differences between common PUA positions and my own.

I'm very aware of PUA, but even in their community, they have a very wide diversity of opinion. Even opinions that are likely similar to yours.

And I haven't seen where anybody is stating that every man must comply with any specific type of PUA.
 
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Scotty said:
it flies in the face of biology and evolution. You believe in evolution, right? If you do, then marriage is created out of whole cloth, is an affront to our natures, and men ought to be having sex with as many women as they can.
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Oh no, you didn't!

There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't know where to begin. Marriage was the ultimate form of kin selection before the advent of low cost paternity tests. The ancient Hebrews understood this very well.
 
TheDutchElm said:
Personal opinion is not the same as conjecture. I see you doing quite a lot of the latter. Step back and consider your position here: this is a punting forum. You presumably have significant disposable income to spend on women who wouldn't normally fuck you. And you're complaining about being taken advantage of for your money? It's YOUR money! Don't give it away if you don't want to! Not for love, sex, affection, nothing! If a woman wants to drain your wallet, don't you think the first step would be dumping her and finding a woman who doesn't want to do that?

Men who can't find a woman who doesn't want anything but their money might want to consider that money might be their only redeeming quality.
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The problem is that we aren't allowed to take care of ourselves and adopt mercenary attitudes like women can.

White knighting and feminism cow men who would otherwise stick up for themselves.
In the U.S. refusing to date morbidly obese women is condemned on the same level as Nazism.

I'm often of the " can't get a dollar outta me" mindset, but you have a lot of simps and blue pillers out there complicating things.
 
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GoldenDalton said:
In the U.S. refusing to date morbidly obese women is condemned on the same level as Nazism.
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That's because it's now acceptable to be 'obese' in the U.S. --- 10, 15 years ago? Those folks were shunned and then schools begin spewing that soft bullshit, which now gives us these passive teenagers and early adults who don't know how to manage their lives.

Disclaimer: I'm not fat. I'm just average, I guess. South of 70kg.
 
TheDutchElm said:
There's lots of women who want a permanent partner but don't want to get married. Don't give up. :) Might be hard to find one in Japan unless she's older (late 30's at least I would say), as the must-conform-to-social-mores mindset here is barely one step above tribal sheep-herders. lol Interestingly, I've found that foreign women staying in Japan (not English teachers) are more likely to take a skeptical view of the marriage institution. My last girlfriend (white, American) told me she just wants to wear the fancy dress and have the reception party and didn't care about the legal status at all. She didn't even care about (gasp) "the ring"!
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I think permanent can be hard to define for various women, but there are a lot of women (to include young women) in Japan that want a long term relationship without marriage.

I've been in long relationships where the women didn't want to marry me for 1 to 2 years, and when she felt that she wanted marriage, we parted ways amicably.

Many women will enter in a relationship for 1 to 3 years, without making marriage an issue. It depends on what stage in life that she is at and her mindset.

Many a 22 year old woman isn't trying to get married and wants to pursue her career or explore life. And many a 35 year old woman has given up on wanting kids and traditional marriage life.

From my experience, it's the 26 to 33 year old range, where you can find a lot of women panicking about marriage and kids, so may be pushing the issue or looking really hard.

A man can enjoy long lasting non-marriage relationships, and if he chooses so, end them if the woman explicitly insist on marriage or kids.

I think the issue is more birth control, pregnancy, and various women trying to trap a man or force marriage by using pregnancy. That is often how various women apply leverage or how many men get trapped into marriages they didn't really want.

When a woman explicitly agrees not to get pregnant or try to trap a man into marriage, it is often the foundation of where you can have stable long-term non-marriage relationships.

If male birth control pills ever come out, it could dramatically solve and reduce unwanted pregnancies and unwanted marriages. In the meanwhile, as women have more birth control options (that many don't use) and control over abortion, men need to rely more on women complying with agreements or having a certain view about marriage and pregnancy.
 
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I tell women in my life....."you want kids" look on ebay"
 
TheDutchElm said:
I'm done. This won't end well.
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Angus Beef said:
I read an article that stated married men don't want escorts, they want a controllable mistress.
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Why? So they can have twice as many headaches? Charlie Sheen said it best:

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Controllable mistresses don't cause trouble. Myth. In fact, mistresses that blog, state that drama only starts when both decide to take things to marriage level. Otherwise the man gets an exclusive gal (no threat of disease to wreck the man's life), the gal gets financial rewards and other perks. I don't know of any problems that a controllae mistresses causes. A fling with different women is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a woman that knows you are married, doesn't care, is not interested in doing you harm, and does not need you 24/7. It could be done in Japan. Lots of J chics will bang married men with no strings. Happens everyday. They don't care. Charley Sheen's goal was to fuck as many women of all types as he could.
 
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Emma-Emerio said:
I'm not quite sure about the culture here in Japan, but where I come from most escorts never frown upon clients who are married or in a relationship. As an escort you never know their circumstances and as polyamority is becoming more accepted I think this kind of behaviour exhibited by escorts will diminish. I'm surprised some of your companions have even brought it up, but to me it sounds like those types of predjudiced escorts aren't very skilled at socializing or understanding their clientele.
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Some escorts will not have any dealings with married men at all.
 
Angus Beef said:
I don't know of any problems that a controllae mistresses causes.
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So, when you wrote "I read an article..." and didn't link it to it, you really meant, "man, I want a stepford wife, but without the wife part" :whistle:
 
If I were married, I'd rather have a controllable mistress like Hugh Hefner had. Since I think the article on this was pretty much something I myself would do, I am swaying that way and would reject P4P if I were married. When I had a woman I had another. Between the two of them, I was satisfied. I love a blonde, but I love a brunette too. The brunette new about the blonde, but it never was a problem. I left them both upon entering rehab. Had to put down Jack, Jim, SoCo, and well shagging 3 times a day, everyday. They don't call me Sudden drivel for nothing.
 
I am not saying a mistress won't bring harm, but from what I can see, P4P is very destructive in a way when thinking of fucking outside of marriage.
 
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