Monger Personal Partner Preferences Vs. Sex Worker Personal Privacy

Btw, this issue is not restricted to p4p contexts. It is the same in casual and brief np4p situations, such as ONSs.

It is also not restricted to a conflict between the privacy of the woman and the man's right to know things about his sex partners. It can equally well be the other way around, women can perfectly well prefer or very strongly prefer not to have sex partners of certain types, men who are married (to someone else) is a very common one. Another is men who are bisexual, which was a major one back when the AIDS epidemic was in full swing.

-Ww
 
Mixing together two @User#8628 posts here:

Something that happened in a long ago past and that doesn't effect the clients if they don't find out... No. I think workers have all right to keep that to themselves!

I don't think providers would have to disclose to everyone but i think if someone specifically asks them they should not lie.

The above two quotes may not be consistent...as I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind. But anyway, my opinion is that sex workers and partners in brief/casual type encounters have a right to keep their personal lives/details private, and I would say even when asked. They should be able to decline to answer certain questions (e.g., about their politics or religious beliefs or family histories or...). Even lying on some topics, while not ideal, is also not such a terrible thing in some cases...and certainly is common enough. For example, you will be hard pressed to find an experienced sex worker with a serious SO who has not lied about it to customers. On the one hand, lying is bad; on the other hand, so is poking your nose into your sex worker's private life.

In a serious relationship i'd like my partner to tell me such a things as a matter of trust (i wanna know all the big things they went through in their past) but it wouldn't make any difference in how i feel about them.

I very much agree with this point; the standards are quite different in a serious and long-term relationship. In my one major personal experience in this area, that is what happened basically. I was seeing a transwoman casually, and she did not mention the fact to me (nor did the possibility ever remotely cross my mind), but when things began to get more serious and a real bond began to form, she felt I should know and so then informed me. Doing so was fairly scary and stressful for her, but that is another story/issue.

-Ww
 
Sorry to say, but there are differences between trans and real (= born) women, even given the progress of medicine and surgery. The attitude, also is different, I definitively found out that she was a trans, so there must have been a reason for me to find these differences. .No judgment, nor right or worng, but just stating my facts.

While I agree with much of what you said in your post I quote above, gave it a like and admire your reaction to your experience with a transwoman in Singapore, there are two other comments I'd like to make:

First of all, distinguishing between a transwoman from a "real woman" is ***extremely*** offensive to most transwomen, akin to calling a homosexual man a faggot or a black person a nigger. In a way it is worse; it is not just a derogatory terminology but in effect denies that they are entitled to regard themselves as "real" or "valid" in a fundamental human characteristic. I am far from a political correctness nazi on words, but this is a seriously hurtful way to talk about someone. Fwiiw, my strong hunch is that you did not intend it to be so.

Second, just because you could detect the difference between a trans and a cis woman on one specific occasion and for one particular woman does not carry any major implications about whether or not such there is a noticeable difference in general. It all depends on the details of the particular case...on her, on what modifications she has had, on you, on how you are interacting etc. Also, it sounds like this occurred some time ago, and the medical/surgical/hormonal technologies involved have been and are being improved greatly. There definitely are transwomen for which almost no one would ever guess, and there will be more of them in the future.

The obvious implied question is if you can't tell, why would you care?

-Ww
 
Should the word "willingly" in the above quote be something like "unknowingly"?

This would be my answer to someone who feels like @roots reggae expressed in the other thread. If you feel that mistaking a transwoman for a ciswoman would be horrible or traumatic for you, you should at least mention the fact to any potential partners and probably should ask them outright. Why should the burden be on them to guess that you might care and proactively inform you?

-Ww

Hai, Sensei! It's a different world now and perhaps I'm still in the process of catching up. I never would have considered that prior to making a "date" I would have to further clarify my preferences.

Still, I have no apologies for my preferences when it comes to paying for intimacy. As I've stated in many other posts, on any other level, I believe I am a true egalitarian.

I see it as on the same level as my dietary preferences. I do not like sushi. That does not mean I discriminate against Japanese or am racist. Sushi is just one part of Japanese culture.

However, when I first met my wife's parents, out of respect, I ate the sushi with feigned gusto. I even had a second helping of whole baby octopus, which I found most disgusting.

Sexual preferences are intimately personal, and not necessarily logical nor conformist. Whatever two consenting adults do in private is nobody else's business and we have no right to judge their actions and preferences.

I truly admire you, Alice, Anna, and all the other folks who disagree with me on this issue. It shows the amazing depth of your humanity.
 
I have no apologies for my preferences when it comes to paying for intimacy.

Sexual preferences are intimately personal, and not necessarily logical nor conformist. Whatever two consenting adults do in private is nobody else's business and we have no right to judge their actions and preferences.

While it makes no *intuitive* sense to me to care about some feature or characteristic a person had in the past, much less to have it trump what they have currently (for example, I don't consider a person with a bad sunburn to be attractive but don't see why it matters that they had one five years ago or whatever), I completely agree with you that sexual preferences are personal, may be illogical and should not be judged by others (so long as no one is being coerced or injured etc). I have no trouble with or criticism of your preference; you are definitely entitled to it. Nor do I draw any conclusions about how you feel about or treat trans people in non-sexual contexts.

HOWEVER, that is NOT the topic of this thread (or at least not the topic I had in mind when I started). What I am trying to get at here is to what extent do you consider your preferences to give you a *right* to know things about a person that they wish to keep private. In this particular context, it is the question of whether a trans person should feel obligated to tell you (proactively or when asked) a fact of their life which they may strongly prefer to keep secret from nearly everyone. I'd be interested (seriously, not being sarcastic) to hear your opinion on this clash of rights, since you nearly always have something wise and insightful to say on tricky topics. It may well be helpful to discuss examples other than the trans one if you think that your personal feelings might interfere with your thinking on the topic. For example, the pregnancy one (#4) or the having an SO one (#2). Is a guy who has strong feelings on those topics (and quite a few men do) entitled to know those personal details of a sex worker's life if she prefers not to share them? To me at least, this general question is more interesting, and certainly affects more sex workers and their customers, than the particular case of trans women.

-Ww
 
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Whoa, I really did not mean to get into any storm of controversy here. I believe we are mixing up morals and customer service.

I happen to prefer organic food. I usually pay a little extra for that. I have to trust the source, since in consuming, it's almost impossible to tell the difference. Most organic foods have labels for certification. To mislabel would not be right.

Nothing may be tangible here in either case, sex nor organic food, except peace of mind. What's peace of mind for you may not be the same for me-that's OK. It's merely a case of giving the customer what she/he pays for. It's the prerogative of the customer to make those conditions.
 
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While it makes no *intuitive* sense to me to care about some feature or characteristic a person had in the past, much less to have it trump what they have currently (for example, I don't consider a person with a bad sunburn to be attractive but don't see why it matters that they had one five years ago or whatever), I completely agree with you that sexual preferences are personal, may be illogical and should not be judged by others (so long as no one is being coerced or injured etc). I have no trouble with or criticism of your preference; you are definitely entitled to it. Nor do I draw any conclusions about how you feel about or treat trans people in non-sexual contexts.

HOWEVER, that is NOT the topic of this thread (or at least not the topic I had in mind when I started). What I am trying to get at here is to what extent do you consider your preferences to give you a *right* to know things about a person that they wish to keep private. In this particular context, it is the question of whether a trans person should feel obligated to tell you (proactively or when asked) a fact of their life which they may strongly prefer to keep secret from nearly everyone. I'd be interested (seriously, not being sarcastic) to hear your opinion on this clash of rights, since you nearly always have something wise and insightful to say on tricky topics. It may well be helpful to discuss examples other than the trans one if you think that your personal feelings might interfere with your thinking on the topic. For example, the pregnancy one (#4) or the having an SO one (#2). Is a guy who has strong feelings on those topics (and quite a few men do) entitled to know those personal details of a sex worker's life if she prefers not to share them? To me at least, this general question is more interesting, and certainly affects more sex workers and their customers, than the particular case of trans women.

-Ww
Well....that's kinda a toughy actually. On the one hand, if we're still using transsexuals who have had sex reassignment surgery as an example, I understand and respect the desire to put their past behind them and label themselves the gender they now associate themselves with. But I also think a partner of said person also has the right to ask if he/she has had the sex change if it has a great effect on their relationship, regardless if it's simply a P4P situation or something far more serious. Now if the transsexual person (or should I say, "former transsexual) decides to share such info or not is their choice, and I don't know if I'd call it the "right" way but there are "better" ways on handling it. If they want to share such info is ultimately their choice and theirs only, but that doesn't mean there may be some potential consequences with the choice they make.
 
Well....that's kinda a toughy actually.

Exactly so...kinda tough, a very tough call indeed I would say. Both the customer and the trans sex worker have valid rights, and those rights are in conflict. There is no possibility of compromise as far as I can see. One person has to give up their right so the the other can have his/hers. Which should it be? This is the question that motivated me to start this thread (though I still think the issue does not and should not be restricted to the trans case).

But, for the moment, let's talk about the trans case since everyone seems to prefer to debate it.

Well, I have posed the question repeatedly and asked a few specific people their opinions, but I have not really given my own. Fwiiw, my opinion is that the trans woman's right to privacy, to keep the fact that she is a trans secret...even to lie about it in some circumstances, trumps the "consumer rights" and/or "sexual preferences" rights of the guy. In other words, I disagree with @Ches and @roots reggae and probably with the large majority of mongers in this case. (I hope needless to say, I of course still respect both of my TAG friends and their opinions.)

Here's why I feel that way: I might well not give the same answer in an "ideal world" or in a sort theoretical moral sense, but my actual answer is grounded in the imperfect, in fact just terrible in this regard, real world where the trans sex worker has vastly more to lose than the customer. At worst he is going to have an experience he may find extremely upsetting, maybe even traumatically so, and perhaps quite disgusting. Maybe he will have nightmares about it or something. However the reasonably plausible consequences for her are enormously worse. The problem is that the information on her trans history that she shares with a potential customer may not stay with just him; it may "get out" and become widely known with consequences for her ranging from very bad to catastrophic or even fatal.

Consider some of the things that actually happen to trans women who have been outed or who have come out of the closet voluntarily: They have been socially ostracized, lost their friends. They have been discriminated against in all manner of ways (e.g., been kicked out of their apartments, denied medical treatment etc). They have become an "embarrassment to their families" and in some cases basically disowned by them. They have lost their jobs. They have been bullied, harassed and intentionally humiliated and shamed publicly. They have been assaulted physically. And they have been murdered in cold blood. Of course and fortunately, the less severe consequences are more common, but the more severe ones are shockingly and horribly far from rare if you look into the statistics. Put briefly, the trans woman's right is to a privacy on which the whole quality of her life and even her physical safety may well depend. Someone's sexual preferences, though valid and totally within their rights to have, are simply less important imo.

To be clear, it is not the person to whom the trans woman might reveal her secret that would do anything bad to her himself in most cases. He will probably simply forego seeing her and, if he is a decent human being, he will keep her confidence. However, how is she to know what he will do? Most likely he is a total stranger to her, and she has no way of knowing how he will react. It is indeed "kinda tough" to put it mildly.

I doubt that many of us would gamble with our own social, professional, fiscal, mental and physical well being to allow someone else to avoid violating their (perfectly valid) sexual preferences. Neither should we expect trans people to do so imo.

-Ww
 
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Put briefly, the trans woman's right is to a privacy on which the whole quality of her life and even her physical safety may well depend. Someone's sexual preferences, though valid and totally within their rights to have, are simply less important imo.
Which I agree on actually. But the issue I find is that a person's sexual preference, regardless of what level of importance it is, is still ultimately valid. But that's the conundrum: a trans woman should have the right to keep her past private, but her (potential) partner also has the right to full disclosure should he ask for it. I feel it's almost impossible to accommodate for both in such a situation.

This is a head scratcher...
think.jpg
 
Not to cut anyone off, but this is my final post in the thread, mostly because I really have nothing more to say after this.

I realize the topic of the thread relates to sex workers, but for me, the core of the issue is how we treat others and this case, "otherness."

It's much more important how we treat each other in the everyday, real world rather than the relatively small world and transient world of paid and unpaid sex.

Sex, as nice as it is, takes up almost an infinitely smaller amount of our time and energy than other human relationships.
 
I do think that if someone has a particular "dislike" in bed then it is upon themselves to ensure that they do not willingly enter into a situation involving that, asking outright if need be.

So I should outright ask any woman whom I'm about to pay for sexual services: "excuse me but were you born as a boy?" Dollars to donuts that would piss off most women I've ever met.

It is clear that the man here had some mental issues and if the woman had been to his "preference" he might have just as easily found something else to his disliking and murdered her still.

Thats assuming quite a lot.

Now let's hope all you guys don't ask us providers if we were 'trans' or so haha. That would be awkward.

Well according to the above and below, I should ask you that before money changes hands were I to reserve your services.

but if a guy has really strong feelings against having a p4p partner of some particular sort, so strong that he will be really freaked out or furious or traumatized, then it is up to him to find out in advance and/or warn the sex worker before money changes hands or any action starts.

Seriously? Its mentioned elsewhere that some men would find this pretty traumatic even they didn't know it would be a problem beforehand. Also again as above, a man should ask a provider if she was born with a penis?

I happen to prefer organic food. I usually pay a little extra for that. I have to trust the source, since in consuming, it's almost impossible to tell the difference. Most organic foods have labels for certification. To mislabel would not be right.

The organic stuff is the product with double the cost and half the size ;)
 
Also, in my opinion, physical looks are not what makes a woman.

I didn't say anything about looks.

Many serial killers

Whoah now! The incident in question did not involve serial killing. If you read the article in the end it was ruled as manslaughter. Very different things here. Additionally there is no evidence of any mental illness or aggression problems on the part of the convicted man.
 
If not about looks, then what would bother you about having sex with a woman who was born in a man's body?
I've had some amazing sex with women across the spectrum of looks. To the best of my knowledge they were all born as female as well. Even I can understand "on paper" that some people get corrections to gender dysphoria, that doesn't mean that I would be OK with myself having sex with that person.

Do I care about working with, living next door to or otherwise the fact that they exist? No. It doesn't bother me. But for even the most meaningless mechanical sex acts, I personally only want it to be with a woman who was born female inside and outside. Thats just me.

When it comes down to it, I'd really really hate to have to ask or to be asked the question before engaging in a sex act for money or otherwise.
 
Seriously? Its mentioned elsewhere that some men would find this pretty traumatic even they didn't know it would be a problem beforehand. Also again as above, a man should ask a provider if she was born with a penis?

When it comes down to it, I'd really really hate to have to ask or to be asked the question before engaging in a sex act for money or otherwise.

Fwiiw, I agree with you that asking is extremely awkward, unnatural and potentially offensive to some. It is NOT a good solution. However, can you suggest a better one? Especially in view of what I say in this post above:

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads...rker-personal-privacy.11107/page-2#post-63990

-Ww
 
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Just a couple of comments:

One idea would be to ask someone who has seen the escort in question previously for their opinion on the subject.

That is certainly a more graceful and polite approach than asking the escort directly, especially if the question can be asked privately (as opposed to being posted on an open forum for all/many to read). But obviously it is not a general solution. For one reason, the potential customer may very well not know anyone who has seen her before or might not have any idea whom she has seen previously; this is far more common than that they do I'm pretty sure. (Most prostitution is not rooted in TAG-like online communities where there are a lot of people who know each other.) Another more important reason is that previous customers may well not be aware that the escort is a trans woman even after/during intimacy. This happens routinely in fact.

If it helps, one common indicator of birth gender is jaw angle: women tend to have a more acute jaw then men.

This is true, but of course it is only a statistical difference, not a sure thing, and jaw lines can be reshaped by reconstructive surgery, though it is a pretty intense/unpleasant process for the patient. Some trans women do have this surgery.

More generally, many secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics can be influenced by HRT (hormone replacement therapy), especially if it is started at the onset of puberty. Young trans girls who receive such treatments will, for example, develop breasts precisely the same as those which cis girls develop in response to the hormones their bodies produce. Basically, almost all sexual characteristics develop either in utero or during puberty; the latter are now largely under the control of HRT. Bringing it back to your point, I don't know if jaw lines are influenced by HRT or if they are set in utero, but my guess would be the former since it is often extremely hard to judge a young child's gender from their facial appearance alone. It becomes much easier after puberty as we all know.

-Ww
 
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However, can you suggest a better one? Especially in view of what I say in this post above:

The post you referred to was well written. Were I ever to learn of a person currently presenting as a different gender than birth, I certainly would not "out them". In some cyberpunkish future, we as customers may be presented with DNA readouts if we want to know the birth gender of a provider. Until then unfortunately surgery and artful presentation can be "used to deceive".

I've been thinking about this and can't actually suggest a "better" way to find out but I sure as heck don't want to find out post facto.
 
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Until then unfortunately surgery and artful presentation can be "used to deceive".

I think that you and I now largely understand each other's points of view, and I appreciate your honest post (which I quote above)...which is why I gave it a like.

However, I did want to make a point I consider important about the part of your post I made bold in the quote. Namely, trans women are typically NOT using surgery, HRT and "artful presentation" for the *purpose* of deceiving you/others, though doing so may be a consequence. Rather they are usually trying to become more comfortable in their own bodies; their intention is to improve their own mental health and happiness/contentment. Moreover, it is at least somewhat effective. Suicide rates drop quite a bit for trans people following gender reassignment procedures. In this sense it is not at all "unfortunate", imo. Btw, I am not attributing the views I dispute here to you; you may well have meant nothing like that. It is just that "used to deceive" suggests a quite different intent than the actual one.

Put a little differently, a trans person would tell you that it is/was her/his birth body that is/was deceptive, making her/his gender appear different to others from what she/he knows it to be.

-Ww
 
While I agree with much of what you said in your post I quote above, gave it a like and admire your reaction to your experience with a transwoman in Singapore, there are two other comments I'd like to make:

First of all, distinguishing between a transwoman from a "real woman" is ***extremely*** offensive to most transwomen, akin to calling a homosexual man a faggot or a black person a nigger. In a way it is worse; it is not just a derogatory terminology but in effect denies that they are entitled to regard themselves as "real" or "valid" in a fundamental human characteristic. I am far from a political correctness nazi on words, but this is a seriously hurtful way to talk about someone. Fwiiw, my strong hunch is that you did not intend it to be so.

Second, just because you could detect the difference between a trans and a cis woman on one specific occasion and for one particular woman does not carry any major implications about whether or not such there is a noticeable difference in general. It all depends on the details of the particular case...on her, on what modifications she has had, on you, on how you are interacting etc. Also, it sounds like this occurred some time ago, and the medical/surgical/hormonal technologies involved have been and are being improved greatly. There definitely are transwomen for which almost no one would ever guess, and there will be more of them in the future.

The obvious implied question is if you can't tell, why would you care?

-Ww
My apologies to whoever I may have offended. It was a very wrong choice of words, and as you kindly say, not intended.

I, in fact, have a lot of respect and, dare I say, admiration for people who have enough courage to undertake such changes, facing a society which is still so conservative and retrograde. Hats off to them. Some of them are part of my close range of (sexual as well as non sexual) friends.
I, though, do not understand the comparison you make with black people and/or homosexuals... But never mind..

I also disagree with your second point, especially the last sentence. I mean when you have sex with them. I don't kwow how much experience you have, but I have more than the one I have described, and quite recent... Again, saying this is not derogatory in any way. It is just stating what is , for me, a reality. And not saying it just because that would be considered inappropriate by some well meaning people, would be self censorship.

I realize that just writing what I wrote above will attract some comments that I discriminate between trans women and women. And that I should not even mention those words, that there are only women, trans or not. Perhaps. But my point is that we are all human beings with our differences. Mentioning differences between men and women does not mean judgment, just, again, stating the facts, and in doing so, improving better understanding between the groups.

With all due respect to you, and I mean those words, I think that, yes, there is a little bit of mild political correctness in this.. YMHO...

And for your last sentence, , of course, you are right. But my point is that in most , if not all, cases, one can tell, when it comes to sexual acts.

At then end, no disagreement, I think, here, just a slight different approach.
 
At then end, no disagreement, I think, here, just a slight different approach.

Agreed. It is pretty clear that we are basically on the same page here. But let me try to fine tune or clarify our points of possible disagreement a little:

On the comparison I made to extremely derogatory terms of black and homosexual people, it was perhaps a poorly chosen way to express it, but in any event what I was trying to say was that you could offend or hurt a trans woman by explicitly or implicitly saying that you do not consider her to be a "real woman" to a degree comparable to that involved in the use of those very negative/insulting terms for black and homosexual people.

On the point of "mild political correctness", I have to agree with you that there is some of that in play but also say that I have no problem with PC as long as it doesn't get too extreme and crazy. After all it really just means (in this context at least) taking other people's feelings into account in how you express yourself. It should not, of course, extend to self-censorship...or other people censoring you.

Perhaps our main point of direct disagreement, and factual disagreement at that, is about whether or not a man can tell whether his partner is trans when he has sex with her. As best I understand it, you are saying that you have been able to tell the difference on some, maybe many, occasions in the past. One comment and one question: The comment - I know personally of cases in which men had extended relationships including numerous sexual encounters with trans women without even suspecting anything. The question - how would you know it if you had not realized your partner was trans on other occasions (unless she later revealed it to you); couldn't this have happened to you too?

Finally, my point is that the medical technologies involved are constantly improving, and HRT for trans girls entering puberty, once extremely rare, is becoming more common. I even know of one case personally. So, it seems reasonable to expect that situations when men have sex with trans women and do not realize it will become steadily more common.

-Ww
 
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