Passivity and Busy OLs: I can't gauge interest

[lurk3r]

First post here so it 's a little long, mainly to avoid wasting time on questions that can be answered before they're even asked. Also, I'm not sure if this belongs in the dating section? There's so much overlap between 'PUA' and dating that I'm not sure which is more appropriate.

Background

I'm 32. Six-years-a-gaijin. Coming out of a 3+ year relationship so I'm rusty. I've only been in 3 relationships and had a smattering of hookups here in Japan, all from online dating. I hate bars/clubs and I'm not a drinker outside of some wine or beer with a meal. The common denominator of my previous successes has been the attitude of the women: They were all students or freeters with a lot of free time to text or set up dates, they were proactive about reciprocating kino, and they were super easy to read. Even the girls I had bad or lackluster dates with were easy to read, and I knew I was going to get ghosted before they even did it. Back then, I never experienced ghosting after a good date. Only after bad or mediocre dates.

At the time I really didn't have much value on the dating market. I'm now tenured in a secure, well-paying job, bilingual, and I spend a lot of time in the gym and pursuing my own hobbies and interests, a few of which have gotten me quite a bit of female attention on top of being relatively attractive. I have seen my value increase, but I can't seem to do anything with it, and I am becoming demoralized by my inability to gauge interest because everyone I've gone out with recently has been extremely passive and/or a Busy OL. Unlike before, I cannot tell when they will ghost me, and I end up ghosted after some amazing dates. I don't know how much of the problem is me just sucking, and how much of it is a cultural thing, and that's why I'm here.

Specifics

I'm easing back into the scene with Tinder since it interferes less with my routine and I dislike stereotypical nightlife. Started in October, got 100 matches. Solid response rate. Solid date rate if I actually ask them out. I don't ask a lot of them out because they're stupid boring, or I can't squeeze them into my schedule. If I were less picky and had more time I'd probably be going out twice a week but whatever. My dates are always something active and conducive to kino: billiards, rollerskating, etc. Occasionally I'll have just dinner and drinks the first time then do the fun active stuff the second date. But let's move to a specific example:

Casper

Let's call her "Casper." 26 or 27, OL working fairly late on weeknights, recently moved to Tokyo from the countryside. Zero appeal to her Tinder profile. Literally just half of her face and "I want to make friends" and that's it. Super plain. Not sure why I swiped right but I did. Matched and set up a same day date. She specifically said she was going home (alone) that night. Okay, whatever. Went for dinner and a couple drinks. She was super plain, but attractive in her plainness, with a fun, interesting personality. LTR material from my perspective, so I went less hookup approach and more date approach. We both had a lot of fun talking and I felt a connection that I rarely feel on dates. I did some leg-rub kino under the table and some light hand kino. Clear attraction in her eyes and caught a triangle gaze a couple times from across the table, but couldn't take action on it. She brought up how she hates "bad guys who try to make her miss the last train." Okay....plausible deniability....whatever. Enthusiastic interest in a second date, we went home fairly early. She proactively sent me her LINE info to take things off Tinder (and she unmatched/quit shortly after, apparently). We set up the second date two-weeks out. Now, I'm not much of a texter and only use it to set up dates, but her responses were always incredibly slow. One or two texts a day, always between 6-9am or 11pm-1am. Three days for her to get back to me and finalize our date. Compared to my past experiences with students and freeters this was just baffling to me. Still, we had the second date.

Second date, roller skating then billiards. I turned up the kino. Way up. But she was extremely shy about reciprocating. She was still having a blast, laughing and smiling from ear-to-ear, caught the triangle gaze a few times, but she was so shy about PDA and really didn't contribute much to the sexual vibe other than that triangle gaze and a couple sheepish touches from her. In the past most girls would at least contribute to proximity so I could lean in for a kiss. Didn't help that I was getting distracted by sleepiness and a nauseated stomach from something I ate, so I let the kiss slide. Still, really good vibes. She was enthusiastic about meeting again. Texted me "I want to play billiards with you again" with 500 exclamation marks. Tried to set up a date but she was busy the days I offered and said she wasn't sure about weekday nights yet. New Years, travel plans with her family, borderline black company, all reasonable excuses and her texts still seemed positive. I checked in after the holidays settled down and got a positive response. Invited her out again. Ghosted.

Conclusion

This is not a unique experience. I have gone out with many Caspers. The signals of interest on the date are quite strong, but still they're passive and don't put much effort into a dance that requires two active participants. The signals between dates are the complete opposite of the signals on the dates. It's totally different than the experiences I had years ago.

Am I really expected to do 150% of the work? Is a kiss/bang close that important on the first date? Is it normal for OLs to be so busy and distant? Is it normal to be ghosted after great dates? It's making me very jaded and distrustful; almost reclusive because I know that I'll just get ghosted anyway no matter what I do, so what's even the point? How much of this is cultural crap that I just have to deal with, and how much of it is just me that can be fixed?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm extremely frustrated about the situation.

 

[TAG_Member]

I think she is one of those who get on Tinder just for ‘dates’ for when she is bored.

Usual signs were there with the slow responses, in matching etc. On LINE, they see the messages but pick which ones to respond to - if you ever notice a girls LINE, you’ll see many unread messages being ignored while they read and respond to friends. They even do this to ‘friends’ who are annoying.

You didn’t push too hard, didn’t seem like a treat on the first date and so again she decided to meet up as she was probably bored and lonely.

Based on what you wrote, you had no chance from the second date because you couldn’t get anything and ended up with not even a proper kiss. The message saying she wanted to go and play billets with you again was just a typical Japanese girl response. They all do this shit all the time and it means nothing. There is a standard line in Japanese but I can’t remember what it is. When Japanese guys here this day no it’s just being polite. I think many girls translated differently into English and saw for a nice miss understand what the girl is trying to say. She tried to be polite and replied that she was busy with troops and work but basically gave up in the end and ghosted you because you kept on asking.

 

[lurk3r]

How do you avoid this? Or at least understand it's happening so as not to be blindsided? So far the only girls I've had success with have honestly been on the clingy side and I tire of being around them, so when I meet someone like "Casper" I feel a bit more confident that I'm dating an adult.....only to find out that I got used by a child who was just lonely and bored?

 

[Lukes]

Can't tell if it's worse being married or being single, lol. I'm around your age but am married so I don't date anymore, at least not for "free" (nothing is ever free, you just pay in different ways).

Let me drop some knowledge on you son. Females that use Tinder or basically any online dating service are either (1) emotionally damaged, (2) mentally unstable or (3) suffer from acute borderline personality disorders. Sometimes all of the above. So it should be no surprise that those things keep happening to you. You should assume it's going to happen and not worry about it. That's why you should be fucking these bitches on the first or (at most) the second date.

You know why you can't find a mentally competent female online that you enjoy spending time with and who won't just cut and run after being lavished with meals and gifts right? Because all those fine women are already locked down and probably have been since either high school or college. What that leaves you with are all the rejects that the desirable men didn't want.

So how do you stop that shit from happening to you?

You don't and you're doomed to repeat that cycle over and over again.

How much of it is cultural?

A lot. Western culture is incompatible and if you don't understand that, you won't succeed except by accident.

How much of it is you?

Probably a lot. Let me clue you in here. You're talking about "gauging interest" when you should be concentrating on how you're going to bang these women. That should be your endgame.

 

[lurk3r]

Gauging interest is a big deal for me since I'm not interested in coerced sex.

In a strange turn of events, I got a message from "Casper" out of the blue, saying she decided to stop seeing people she met on Tinder (supposedly) and she apologized about the situation. I much prefer that to ghosting like a coward.

 

[TAG_Member]

In a strange turn of events, I got a message from "Casper" out of the blue, saying she decided to stop seeing people she met on Tinder (supposedly) and she apologized about the situation. I much prefer that to ghosting like a coward.

same thing. Just a slightly more polite or cautious method on her side. At the end of the day, they don’t mean any harm or mean to be rude, it’s just how the game is to them

 

[Durg50]

Sounds like she was expecting you to take the lead and take her home or to a LH on the first date, then after the second when you still didnt give her some cock she gave up. A girl that doesnt have one night stands /hook ups would never even think to mention they are ‘going home alone’ in advance of a date, nor would they talk about ‘bad guys’ making them miss the last train.

Girls go on tinder for the same reason guys do; to pick someone they find sexually attracted to and then have sex with them.

If you want a LTR look elswhere. You want a hook-up, use Tinder or go to a club.

 

[lurk3r]

There wasn’t enough effort on her part to tell me she wanted that, which goes back to the passivity thing. What’s with putting in so little effort beyond showing up? That’s what I don’t get. Makes me feel like they’d be dead fish in the bed even if I did take them home. There’s a big difference between leading and micromanaging. From what I’m reading here it seems like they’re expecting the latter?

 

[Durg50]

What’s with putting in so little effort beyond showing up? That’s what I don’t get.

Cultural thing I think.
Pretty sure dating in the US or UK wouldbe been the same in the 1950. The man is expected to chase, although in reality both parties are as keem as each other.

And on your next point; personality outside the bedroom is rarely an indicator of ability in it.

The loudest girls socially are often boring in bed. The quieter ones often leave it until the bedroom to show you their other side.

 

[lurk3r]

Is that also why they don’t say what they want; “I’m going home tonight,” etc.?

personality outside the bedroom is rarely an indicator of ability in it.

I wish women understood that....

 

[TAG_Member]

There wasn’t enough effort on her part to tell me she wanted that, which goes back to the passivity thing. What’s with putting in so little effort beyond showing up? That’s what I don’t get. Makes me feel like they’d be dead fish in the bed even if I did take them home. There’s a big difference between leading and micromanaging. From what I’m reading here it seems like they’re expecting the latter?

Did she meet other foreigners before?

 

[Lukes]

Gauging interest is a big deal for me since I'm not interested in coerced sex.

In a strange turn of events, I got a message from "Casper" out of the blue, saying she decided to stop seeing people she met on Tinder (supposedly) and she apologized about the situation. I much prefer that to ghosting like a coward.

Sorry, maybe my post wasn't quite what I intended. Let me try again.

Your problem is that despite being an attractive, successful foreigner that has integrated well into Japanese society - your dating prospects are poor and you're not sure why.

The earlier point I was making is (1) that online dating generally brings you girls that have issues and (2) that it's not too worthwhile to try and gauge interest. Here's why:

To my first point, one does not find long term relationship material online. You might if you're lucky but most aren't.

To my second point - If a woman agreed to a proper date with you, then she's already expressed interest (even if it's "meh" level). Then the ball is in your court. She expects to show up and let you handle the rest. Your job is to run through a serious of motions that ultimately lead to sex and she will put on the brakes when (or if) she reaches the limits of what she's willing to do at that time. That's how it works.

There is no coercion but there are cultural norms. Japan is a society of expectations. She expects you to try and get her in bed and probably pressure her a little, you expect to pretend that you're not right up until the moment that you are. Ok so in the States that might be borderline coercion but in Japan that's called Tuesday evening.

 

[lurk3r]

She expects to show up and let you handle the rest. Your job is to run through a serious of motions that ultimately lead to sex and she will put on the brakes when (or if) she reaches the limits of what she's willing to do at that time.

Wow that’s incredibly one-sided. Guys don’t get burned out on having to do everything all the damn time?

 

[Durg50]

Wow that’s incredibly one-sided. Guys don’t get burned out on having to do everything all the damn time?

Well, in return we get to enjoy things like meeting a stranger for a date and our biggest worry is she will be fat or unattractive, whereas the lady’s biggest worry will be if she will literally be raped and murdered.

You are a guy, im guessing straight and white, from a developed country living in another developed country. Please dont complain about stuff like having to put in some effort to get laid.

 

[Frenchy]

Well, in return we get to enjoy things like meeting a stranger for a date and our biggest worry is she will be fat or unattractive, whereas the lady’s biggest worry will be if she will literally be raped and murdered.

You are a guy, im guessing straight and white, from a developed country living in another developed country. Please dont complain about stuff like having to put in some effort to get laid.

good point. Although in all fairness she could be fat, unattractive, and also a murderer . Rare but it happens

 

[lurk3r]

TIL "some effort" equals doing all the work.

I'm having some cognitive dissonance here:

the lady’s biggest worry will be if she will literally be raped

Meanwhile I'm supposed to do borderline coercion to get her in my bed......the fact that she expects it to be borderline coercion doesn't make it feel like fun, consensual participation....How do you get over the psychological block of "this feels rapey"?

But this brings me to an interesting question: How many of you guys prefer "conquering" the woman (for a lack of a better term) over feeling desired? Personally, I prefer feeling desired, and when my date puts zero effort into the sexual tension I simply do not feel desired. If I don't feel desired I'm less inclined to aggressively lead.

 

[UnicornHunter]

TIL "some effort" equals doing all the work.

I'm having some cognitive dissonance here:



Meanwhile I'm supposed to do borderline coercion to get her in my bed......the fact that she expects it to be borderline coercion doesn't make it feel like fun, consensual participation....How do you get over the psychological block of "this feels rapey"?

But this brings me to an interesting question: How many of you guys prefer "conquering" the woman (for a lack of a better term) over feeling desired? Personally, I prefer feeling desired, and when my date puts zero effort into the sexual tension I simply do not feel desired. If I don't feel desired I'm less inclined to aggressively lead.

Unfortunately I feel I am in the Feeling Desired category. I hate ghosts with a passion.

 

[Durg50]

TIL "some effort" equals doing all the work.

I'm having some cognitive dissonance here:



Meanwhile I'm supposed to do borderline coercion to get her in my bed......the fact that she expects it to be borderline coercion doesn't make it feel like fun, consensual participation....How do you get over the psychological block of "this feels rapey"?

But this brings me to an interesting question: How many of you guys prefer "conquering" the woman (for a lack of a better term) over feeling desired? Personally, I prefer feeling desired, and when my date puts zero effort into the sexual tension I simply do not feel desired. If I don't feel desired I'm less inclined to aggressively lead.

I dunno man you seem like you are really overthinking things.
Just meet girls through work or hobbies. Things will be a lot more normal and even-sided.
Online dating of any kind you are always going to be scraping the barrel.

But if you must use Tinder or whatever... if you genuinely believe that you are doing ‘all the work’ when you are on a date with a stranger from the internet who agreed to come out and meet you then I guess empathy isnt your strong point.

 

[Durg50]

But this brings me to an interesting question: How many of you guys prefer "conquering" the woman (for a lack of a better term) over feeling desired? Personally, I prefer feeling desired,

Pretty sure any non-socipath prefers the latter, but you knew that.

 

[lurk3r]

if you genuinely believe that you are doing ‘all the work’ when you are on a date with a stranger from the internet who agreed to come out and meet you then I guess empathy isnt your strong point.

If I lacked empathy I wouldn't even be in this situation....I'd just be mindlessly coercing women into my bed. That said, what really is the difference between going out with someone you met on the internet and someone you met at a bar or on the street? In both cases you're strangers. "Oh but you had a chat when you met at the bar." Yeah and we had a chat online too. What's the difference? You can get catfished online. That's about it. Going out with a stranger you met at the bar/club/street has the exact same risks as going out with a stranger you met online. A stranger is a stranger, regardless of where you met them. The murder/rape risk is the same either way, so I fail to see how that’s at all relevant to justifying one person putting in way more effort than the other.

 

[Durg50]

So like i said, try and meet girls through hobbies, work, mutual friends etc.

 

[Durg50]

Going out with a stranger you met at the bar/club/street has the exact same risks as going out with a stranger you met online. A stranger is a stranger, regardless of where you met them. The murder/rape risk is the same either way, so I fail to see how that’s at all relevant to justifying one person putting in way more effort than the other.

Did anyone suggest otherwise?

 

[Durg50]

Ok I just googled ‘kino’ and ‘triangle gaze’.
Jesus christ that is sad.
Mate, please just speak to women normally.

 

[lurk3r]

Ok I just googled ‘kino’ and ‘triangle gaze’.
Jesus christ that is sad.
Mate, please just speak to women normally.

"Hey I saw you triangle-gazing there."
"Yeah you like dat kino bb?"



Yeah I totally don't calibrate my speech to my audience at all. It's straight up PUA lingo with every single person I talk to.

 

[Durg50]

"Hey I saw you triangle-gazing there."
"Yeah you like dat kino bb?"



Yeah I totally don't calibrate my speech to my audience at all. It's straight up PUA lingo with every single person I talk to.

Thats clearly not what I meant.
I mean dont use the techniques, just be yourself.