Post-approach Game

[Ascent]

I have been reading the dating, pickup and approach related discussion on TAG for some time (particularly from the likes of Solong and lately Sinapse - thanks to everyone for such constructive advice threads!), but sadly have not had much to contribute in the way of useful experiences myself. In particular there is something of a yawning gulf between my own experiences and the kind of dazzling day game successes described here and on other forums, and I've been starting to wonder what is going on.

Having read about daytime approaching on here and from various PUA sources (in particular, Roosh's "Day Bang") I set about putting it into practice, and began observing and approaching solitary girls in various local venues (predominately Starbucks, Excelsior, McDonald's, and certain shops and bookshops, along with some efforts in night time venues).

Initial results were reasonable - discretely taking seats next to promising girls and rambling about books and smartphones segued into personal conversations and warm rapport far more often than it did outraged blowouts and aggressive disinterest, and invitations to meet again at a future date were accepted and Line details exchanged, boyfriends and other such obstacles permitting. Girls were generally high quality, many were internationally minded, and "drunken bar rats" were notable by their absence.

However, a complete absence of future dates, let alone sex or ongoing relations, was also sadly noted - no matter how warm the conversation in person, on Line they were either procrastinating, refusing to meet or outright ignoring all communication. Even the girls it was possible to move from Starbucks to a bar went cold immediately afterwards.

Of 70 approaches, about 15 led to Line exchanges or contiguous dates. Nothing came of these 15. This encompassed a month or two of serious daily effort.

The only lady who did come out on a subsequent date as a result of all this came home with me (since she was a Japanese bar rat in her thirties I assume she knew what was up) but then inexplicably ran off.

Although quite inured to this sort of treatment from my experiences online, with even the most aggressive efforts to filter out uninterested girls and even the most friendly and evidently interested girls still showing absolutely no interest in future meetings, it is difficult to see how it is possible to rack up the hundreds of such approaches needed to assure success - even 70 took drastic effort. I am looking at pursuing alternative methods, but would like to continue approaching if I can ever get anything out of it...

These results, assuming I eventually experience any success, probably put me below 1%, which is worse that the local nampa-shi gang tell me they get sidling up to random girls by the station and trying to pull them to a venue.

Regarding myself, the other side of the equation, I have been living in Tokyo for some years now, speak fluent Japanese (N1) and am in good physical condition. I have had some success (to the tune of several dozen girls) online on various dating sites over the last year, but gave this up as the results were not exactly satisfactory for a number of reasons, in order to focus on approaching, at which I am a complete and utter novice.

My texting strategy has been to stick to scheduling, as in my experience with online girls lengthy texting gets a man nowhere and I have in any case mostly chatted for at least 30 minutes to an hour with them in person.

My only theory to explain all this is that for any number of reasons most Japanese girls don't want anything to do with cold approach strangers and so drop me for whatever reason, real or imagined, as soon as they are out of sight, or as soon as their unseen friends warn them off such a dangerously handsome playboy. Escalating to sex in the same day seems a possible way round this, but is extremely difficult of course.

That said, the local nampa guys did tell me girls in my area were "cold" (not that this lot could have been said to have been any friendlier), and I have never seen anyone else approach a girl in any of my venues. Whether that is an adequete alternative explanation and how it helps me is another matter though.

I'm curious about how others with approach experience deal with actually getting the Japanese girls they pick up out to meet them again, or even to read their messages!

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

I have been reading the dating, pickup and approach related discussion on TAG for some time (particularly from the likes of Solong and lately Sinapse - thanks to everyone for such constructive advice threads!), but sadly have not had much to contribute in the way of useful experiences myself. In particular there is something of a yawning gulf between my own experiences and the kind of dazzling day game successes described here and on other forums, and I've been starting to wonder what is going on.

Having read about daytime approaching on here and from various PUA sources (in particular, Roosh's "Day Bang") I set about putting it into practice, and began observing and approaching solitary girls in various local venues (predominately Starbucks, Excelsior, McDonald's, and certain shops and bookshops, along with some efforts in night time venues).

Initial results were reasonable - discretely taking seats next to promising girls and rambling about books and smartphones segued into personal conversations and warm rapport far more often than it did outraged blowouts and aggressive disinterest, and invitations to meet again at a future date were accepted and Line details exchanged, boyfriends and other such obstacles permitting. Girls were generally high quality, many were internationally minded, and "drunken bar rats" were notable by their absence.

However, a complete absence of future dates, let alone sex or ongoing relations, was also sadly noted - no matter how warm the conversation in person, on Line they were either procrastinating, refusing to meet or outright ignoring all communication. Even the girls it was possible to move from Starbucks to a bar went cold immediately afterwards.

Of 70 approaches, about 15 led to Line exchanges or contiguous dates. Nothing came of these 15. This encompassed a month or two of serious daily effort.

The only lady who did come out on a subsequent date as a result of all this came home with me (since she was a Japanese bar rat in her thirties I assume she knew what was up) but then inexplicably ran off.

Although quite inured to this sort of treatment from my experiences online, with even the most aggressive efforts to filter out uninterested girls and even the most friendly and evidently interested girls still showing absolutely no interest in future meetings, it is difficult to see how it is possible to rack up the hundreds of such approaches needed to assure success - even 70 took drastic effort. I am looking at pursuing alternative methods, but would like to continue approaching if I can ever get anything out of it...

These results, assuming I eventually experience any success, probably put me below 1%, which is worse that the local nampa-shi gang tell me they get sidling up to random girls by the station and trying to pull them to a venue.

Regarding myself, the other side of the equation, I have been living in Tokyo for some years now, speak fluent Japanese (N1) and am in good physical condition. I have had some success (to the tune of several dozen girls) online on various dating sites over the last year, but gave this up as the results were not exactly satisfactory for a number of reasons, in order to focus on approaching, at which I am a complete and utter novice.

My texting strategy has been to stick to scheduling, as in my experience with online girls lengthy texting gets a man nowhere and I have in any case mostly chatted for at least 30 minutes to an hour with them in person.

My only theory to explain all this is that for any number of reasons most Japanese girls don't want anything to do with cold approach strangers and so drop me for whatever reason, real or imagined, as soon as they are out of sight, or as soon as their unseen friends warn them off such a dangerously handsome playboy. Escalating to sex in the same day seems a possible way round this, but is extremely difficult of course.

That said, the local nampa guys did tell me girls in my area were "cold" (not that this lot could have been said to have been any friendlier), and I have never seen anyone else approach a girl in any of my venues. Whether that is an adequete alternative explanation and how it helps me is another matter though.

I'm curious about how others with approach experience deal with actually getting the Japanese girls they pick up out to meet them again, or even to read their messages!

I know that people always like to discredit any advice I give and just flame me but I don't care. I want to try to help you out anyway.

In my experience, I used to have trouble hitting on women even when they were alone in a quiet area because I was too focused on whether on or not could close the deal. I improved upon my game over the years and now I can confidently say that I can get numbers and get laid no problem, when I meet the right type of woman that is.

One thing I did notice though...no matter how much my game improved...there were always a large number of women that I could never seem to hook up with. I could get their numbers or Line ID's but when it came down to setting up a date...nothing. What I'm trying to say is that it might not all be you. A lot of women, especially women here don't usually like to hook up with random guys. I have noticed that guys who hit on women randomly are instantly singled out as dirty or just looking for sex, which is true of course.

After getting tired of women like this and getting the same results, I changed my approach. I will slam some beers and get a good buzz going and I hit on a woman pretty hard. I make it obvious that I'm into her and try to get her number all while making sure she knows that I'm looking to hook up down the road. If I notice the woman seems innocent and just doesn't get it or seems hesitant or nervous like a rabbit about to go full-retard, I abort the mission. I don't even want to waste my time. Who wants to have sex with a goddamn rabbit anyway? Surely not me. The sex friends I have had in the past were always women that caught on to the signal or sometimes just said maybe or yes when I asked if we could meet up again for dinner or go to a hotel sometime. This was only after I talked to them for about 10 or 20 minutes about some random bs of course.

Once in a while, I went around the downtown area and just tried hitting on a large number of women once and noticed that even though it is a numbers game and eventually a ton of no's will lead to a maybe and lead to a yes...I ran into the same flaky results as you. I found that the most successful I have been was when I had a beer in me and I talked about maybe going to a hotel sometime in a really casual voice. I would literally mention casual sex as if I were talking about going to dinner. Hey, let's maybe go to dinner, see a movie or I could take you to a cool love hotel in the area. Just like this. I never give a shit if they make a snooty face when they hear me say that. If they aren't interested, I just keep trucking along. I have a wife and trying to make marriage work, so I don't really mess around as much as when I was single.

You can tell me my advice sucks or to fuck off and that is alright. I just wanted to let you know what has worked for me personally.

 

[Sinapse]

I have been reading the dating, pickup and approach related discussion on TAG for some time (particularly from the likes of Solong and lately Sinapse - thanks to everyone for such constructive advice threads!), but sadly have not had much to contribute in the way of useful experiences myself. In particular there is something of a yawning gulf between my own experiences and the kind of dazzling day game successes described here and on other forums, and I've been starting to wonder what is going on.

Having read about daytime approaching on here and from various PUA sources (in particular, Roosh's "Day Bang") I set about putting it into practice, and began observing and approaching solitary girls in various local venues (predominately Starbucks, Excelsior, McDonald's, and certain shops and bookshops, along with some efforts in night time venues).

Initial results were reasonable - discretely taking seats next to promising girls and rambling about books and smartphones segued into personal conversations and warm rapport far more often than it did outraged blowouts and aggressive disinterest, and invitations to meet again at a future date were accepted and Line details exchanged, boyfriends and other such obstacles permitting. Girls were generally high quality, many were internationally minded, and "drunken bar rats" were notable by their absence.

I'm curious about how others with approach experience deal with actually getting the Japanese girls they pick up out to meet them again, or even to read their messages!

Yeah, flakes will always be a part of the game and no matter how good you get there will always be girls who flake (though they definitely do decrease). For the most part, I dont see it as malicious or even disinterested necessarily, but often simply due to the girl being busy and not being super invested in you. As long as she's reasonably cute she's got lots of options and the more time passes the less she feels the need to meet you - a foreigner with which time spent might be slightly awkward compared to her countrymen.

In general my advice is definitely not as the above poster, to make it aggressive and forward. This will work on drunk girls or girls with whom you have a large initial connection with and/or are lonely and not used to such approaches. Most of the time my approach is pretty subtle, not really giving any compliments based on her physical characteristics or saying I like her unless its for her values and possibly her fashion choices.

If you're doing cafe approaches you do have some time to talk to the girl, but in general I havent found a correlation between time spent with her and meeting again. Actually, perhaps counter-intuitively, I've found that most of the time, a short 5-minute interaction is more effective for getting them to come out again. Their curiosity is higher and they wonder what kind of person you are. If you've spent 45 minutes talking about smartphones, they already know what they're going to get and it isn't necessarily exciting. You can take some of the pressure off by simply parting ways after finishing your coffee.

Roosh, RSD or other foreign teachers' game are not always entirely suited to Japan, and I've seen guys mess themselves up by following some of that advice. The fundamentals are good, but the specifics can be off or false. Specifically, trying to bounce girls around for instant dates (only bounce her to another venue if you think she has time and you have the logistics to go all the way) and spending a lot of time with them, in this case.

Try instead, to make your interactions shorter and sweeter. Sit down, briefly state what you've been /are planning on doing today, cut in a little bit into her values and try to understand what kind of woman she is and what choices she makes (ideally not by asking, but by telling or cold-reading), get her number, and leave. Not really much need to stay past five or ten minutes unless you're having so much fun you just want to talk. This should decrease the amount of time you spend on this stuff, increase the chances / approaches you can get in, and increase her curiosity about who this cool stranger who came and talked to her is.

The benefit you get of fewer blowouts in a cafe setting means you also get fewer girls who are actually genuinely interested, and possibly more 'polite' numbers because theyre sitting next to you and cant really escape. You might try your hand at street approaching! It's definitely a lot more blowouts, but that means you get more practice at making a good impression and going for the number relatively quickly.

For the messaging, I'll probably go in more depth at a later point, but you definitely want to be talking more than scheduling. A simple message saying it was fun talking to her and lets hang out next time is good enough to begin with, sent right after meeting her. After that, you want to cycle between talking about yourself and her, and proposing dates. If she can't come to one date, go back to random fluffing/sending her various media and things about yourself - showing your world. Food is the easiest example - a picture of something delicious you ate! Theres loads that could be said about this, but J girls definitely DO want to chat, and proposing date after date after date when rejected once isn't going to help you, in fact they'll just not meet you at all!

In the meantime, don't get discouraged -- this isn't an easy skill to learn, but the path is extremely rewarding if you put the time in.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

In general my advice is definitely not as the above poster, to make it aggressive and forward. This will work on drunk girls or girls with whom you have a large initial connection with and/or are lonely and not used to such approaches.

Ok, this is totally not true. I have successfully closed multiple deals with completely sober women using this more forward approach.

You can always be more subtle and get friendzoned until the end of time. Be my guests. Japanese women are polite, but they will not hesitate to walk all over you if they know they can.

 

[Ascent]

Aggressively escalating definitely seems inappropriate in a daytime venue... and decent local venues with sufficient traffic and women are not infinite in supply so I'm keeping things strictly low key. Staff and other regulars do notice me.

I'd prefer to be meeting more girls at bars and so on as they are definitely more responsive (although I'm not interested in alcohol and dislike tobacco so these venues are not well suited to me), but logistically there just aren't enough venues with high proportions of girls who can physically be approached at a counter or otherwise, so it is a losing proposition.

Sinapse's comments regarding flakes certainly ring true - although from my perspective all I see are obvious lies, flakes and other such poor treatment, I try to keep in mind that a complex variety of unseen factors contribute to this behaviour, so rather than worrying about these I just delete them after a week or two if no meeting is in sight and move on to pursue new prospects.

Cutting off interactions early is something I saw suggested elsewhere and seems to be very sound advice - thanks. I have been meaning to try it, although I'm not sure it will help too much with approach volume.

Most of my time is actually spent waiting for seats to open or girls to appear rather than chatting (in fact, I am still at such a low level that I am spending more time searching for girls than I do out on dates with them!). One problem is that if I leave the girl early I have to leave the venue and find another or find another seat away from her, and probably try to avoid her seeing me making another approach.

Venue changing is an advanced tactic, I realise. My efforts were with girls who were doing nothing and had no particular reason they had to be back the same night (confirmed indirectly earlier in the conversation). Seems preferable to being messed around for weeks although the proportion of girls capable of sealing the deal in the same night is plainly low!

Another tactic I was considering was approaching girls in groups (I do this in bars with some success) even in the day. This would increase the number of approachable girls significantly whilst introducing various additional complications, but the main advantage might be that if both girls like me her friends will not be pouring cold water on my approach as soon as she is out of sight.

For the messaging, I'm not entirely convinced - I have girls who never read or responded to anything, others who immediately start procrastinating about not being able to meet until a month later (i.e. never), and it seems the longer the interaction goes on the higher the chance of it going south is. With Line interactions with hundreds of online girls from a variety of sites over a year, there was no relationship between the length of the interaction I provided and their willingness to meet.

Approaching on the street certainly seems to be the best way of racking up large numbers of approaches with low investment per approach. However, I am specifically trying to meet girls in my neck of the woods (most of my problems with girls online seemed to stem from them being far away), and I would be way too conspicuous doing this around here. Moving further afield I would have nowhere to take them either. I would certainly approach anywhere based on strong eye contact or similar but usually this is with a girl walking in the opposite direction and catches me by surprise.

Easy results were not something I expected, but I did hope for a better return on the amount of effort involved than I saw with all the flaky crazy/fat/ADHD girls online. I'm more concerned about developing a viable method for meeting them than what happens with the individual cuties I've been chatting up, who can always be replaced with another trip to Starbucks after all.

 

[Sinapse]

Ok, this is totally not true. I have successfully closed multiple deals with completely sober women using this more forward approach.

You can always be more subtle and get friendzoned until the end of time. Be my guests. Japanese women are polite, but they will not hesitate to walk all over you if they know they can.

Yep, and so have I. My point was not that you CANT do that kind of approach. My point was simply that generally, those girls would already like you without the overly forward approach, and you'll scare off a lot of women who you could have successfully approached with a overly bold approach. I've tried both extensively and bold sets of the nampa alarms much faster which shuts you out of a lot of sets. When you're learning, I think its good to practice it a while just so you get comfortable expressing your masculinity and intentions, but eventually, its probably better to move past it. 'asking for directions' opener is basically the same, but opposite. It's too soft and weak. But, for some guys it's the only thing they feel comfortable doing, so they can do it for a while until they get comfortable enough to just go up to a girl and start talking as if she was already their girlfriend.

Have you ever gotten friend zoned from a street cold approach? Cuz I never have.. J girls aren't idiots, they know what you want. Unless of course you don't know what you want or dont go for it.

@Ascent I wouldn't worry about only picking up girls in your area. Girls you have met before WILL come meet you. Online is totally different, and in my opinion its where all the strange, awkward, old, fat, etc reject type chicks gather and try to get attention. They may live far away and are less invested since they've never met you, so they won't travel. Girls youve met out and about will travel, sometimes remarkable distances to see you if you made a strong impression. I would go to the nearest large or semi-large station and do some gaming there!

 

[Ascent]

Directly approaching simply doesn't seem compatible with the majority of daytime venues (even night ones, where inter-table communication is practically unheard of), whereas striking up conversations with women who just happen to be nearby and getting subtly blown out through lack of interest means no future trouble coming to the venue. Clearly it can't be beat for volume of girls and easy positioning though!

Also, quite a few Japanese girls clearly are idiots - not being aware a trip to a guy's place is likely to escalate into sex, setting up dates during their periods, picking strange midpoint locations or setting time constraints in spite of being up for it, trying to setup dates months in advance, to say nothing of overall flakiness. Obviously a lot of this sort of thing is deliberate, but a lot is genuine cluelessness it would seem. But maybe this is a consequence of having spent too long sifting through the dregs online.

Girls I have met before won't come to meet me at all so that is rather putting the cart before the horse.

I do live near a large station (have long pondered whether it is worth approaching waiting girls here), but going further afield would not be a big problem. This doesn't seem to address getting better responses post-approach or more effectively filtering by genuine interest though (maybe it addresses being able to make a higher volume of approaches), and it would immediately remove much realistic prospect of escalating to sex in the first encounter.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

Directly approaching simply doesn't seem compatible with the majority of daytime venues (even night ones, where inter-table communication is practically unheard of), whereas striking up conversations with women who just happen to be nearby and getting subtly blown out through lack of interest means no future trouble coming to the venue. Clearly it can't be beat for volume of girls and easy positioning though!

Also, quite a few Japanese girls clearly are idiots - not being aware a trip to a guy's place is likely to escalate into sex, setting up dates during their periods, picking strange midpoint locations or setting time constraints in spite of being up for it, trying to setup dates months in advance, to say nothing of overall flakiness. Obviously a lot of this sort of thing is deliberate, but a lot is genuine cluelessness it would seem. But maybe this is a consequence of having spent too long sifting through the dregs online.

Girls I have met before won't come to meet me at all so that is rather putting the cart before the horse.

I do live near a large station (have long pondered whether it is worth approaching waiting girls here), but going further afield would not be a big problem. This doesn't seem to address getting better responses post-approach or more effectively filtering by genuine interest though (maybe it addresses being able to make a higher volume of approaches), and it would immediately remove much realistic prospect of escalating to sex in the first encounter.

I used to act like I was waiting for a friend outside the subway stations when I lived in both Beijing and Shanghai.

I would ask passing women the time and chat them up. I hooked up with tons of women this way due to the sheer numbers.

Yes, many would say no but I would approach so many in just one night that eventually, I would get women interested. I have even taken women directly to my place right after meeting them. Usually, it would just be their phone number and a hook up later on.

Unlike Japan, there aren't security cameras and police boxes all over.

 

[Sinapse]

Yeah! Awesome.

Why are you worried about security cameras and police boxes? Unless you're grabbing women right off the open, you're not doing anything illegal..

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

Well think about it. I would literally be hanging out outside the subway station for a couple hours straight.

The police could assume I'm on either end of a drug deal. They might also think I'm some pervert hitting on tons of women passing by.

Even if I'm not touching them, most police don't really understand the pick up game and just assume you are some molestor or rapist lol.

 

[Sinapse]

I am that guy who hangs out serially approaching women in front of stations and I've never had any sort of issue. Japanese dudes do it all the time as well, without issue. The people you have to be careful of is the yakuza, doing blatant pickup in Kabukichi or similar areas has been known to lead to nampa guys getting beaten up in the streets by the yaks. Cops.. I've never had a problem.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

I am that guy who hangs out serially approaching women in front of stations and I've never had any sort of issue. Japanese dudes do it all the time as well, without issue. The people you have to be careful of is the yakuza, doing blatant pickup in Kabukichi or similar areas has been known to lead to nampa guys getting beaten up in the streets by the yaks. Cops.. I've never had a problem.

Well that is good to know. In China, the police never actually bothered me. They would eye me only because some drug dealer would always hangout around the stations selling every drug under the sun. Maybe they assumed I was one of his customers lol.

I do notice that it is more difficult to hit on Japanese women outside. Not only are they more on guard than Chinese women, they act like scared rabbits much moreso. I also noticed that Japanese people in the areas I do nampa, always watch me closely.

 

[Ascent]

Possibly what is getting lost here is the volume of approaches and time required to generate any results, in favour of focus only on a handful of successes, or the kind of results possible after gaining considerable experience. If hours a day spent solely directly approaching hundreds of women in the most high traffic of areas is the only way to secure success on a reliable basis, it doesn't say much for the method's efficacy. Probably one could meet high quality women through another avenues more effectively, if done purposefully and with application of "game", than with escalating levels of cold approach spam tactics.

Yes, you can make it part of your daily routine and casually approach women anywhere, but with a success rate of a few percent it is not going to generate the huge volume of low investment approaches required to have much chance of getting anywhere.

Personally, I keep running into the girls I approached (and on two occasions I have been seen by girls I spoke to off dating sites, in one case with another girl...), so keeping interactions discrete does seem helpful at times.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

Possibly what is getting lost here is the volume of approaches and time required to generate any results, in favour of focus only on a handful of successes, or the kind of results possible after gaining considerable experience. If hours a day spent solely directly approaching hundreds of women in the most high traffic of areas is the only way to secure success on a reliable basis, it doesn't say much for the method's efficacy. Probably one could meet high quality women through another avenues more effectively, if done purposefully and with application of "game", than with escalating levels of cold approach spam tactics.

Yes, you can make it part of your daily routine and casually approach women anywhere, but with a success rate of a few percent it is not going to generate the huge volume of low investment approaches required to have much chance of getting anywhere.

Personally, I keep running into the girls I approached (and on two occasions I have been seen by girls I spoke to off dating sites, in one case with another girl...), so keeping interactions discrete does seem helpful at times.

Well, I didn't mean to give the impression that I only nampa outside train stations and nowhere else lol. Yes, high traffic areas are kind of a spam technique, but even hot women take the trains and subways too. It isn't like this mode of transportation is for ugly people only. I also agree with spreading out across different areas with regard to approaching women. It opens up way more doors and brings you more diversity. You want a younger girl? Nampa around a college. You want a nurse? Nampa around a hospital. You want a sleek business woman? Nampa in a business district and so on.

 

[John Chavers]

You have too much time on your hands

 

[Sinapse]

Possibly what is getting lost here is the volume of approaches and time required to generate any results, in favour of focus only on a handful of successes, or the kind of results possible after gaining considerable experience. If hours a day spent solely directly approaching hundreds of women in the most high traffic of areas is the only way to secure success on a reliable basis, it doesn't say much for the method's efficacy. Probably one could meet high quality women through another avenues more effectively, if done purposefully and with application of "game", than with escalating levels of cold approach spam tactics.

You're absolutely right there isnt much talk about the amount of rejections. Yeah, and at the beginning stages its a lot of work and going around getting blowouts left and right and it seems like a huge waste of time. But if you persist long enough, it becomes much much easier and approaching girls you like becomes a habit. You build up a large amount of women who will come over whenever you want, and each approach cuts like a razor and you perhaps need only a handful of approaches to make something happen, which can be done in an hour.

Please tell me another avenue that one could meet women more effectively. If you have money, you can pay for access to things like high class parties and events, or get VIP at clubs and festivals or go to the kyabakura, but those are also going to be full of women who are going to expect the gravy train to keep flowing, and have no incentive to bang you really. Of course your game can be tight and you can pull them, but how are you going to tighten your game without talking to tons of women?

Prostitutes, well thats another whole bag. At 50k a visit (is that how much they cost?), that adds up quite quickly. Especially if you factor in the fact that some of the girls you sleep with off the streets or from cold approach will keep coming back regularly, it quickly becomes cost effective to catch your own fish, if you're looking at it like that.

You have too much time on your hands

Time, well yeah I cut out everything unnecessary from my life. Work, exercise, reading books, meditation, game, meeting friends/girls, and the occasional movie or event. I have no time for things like watching youtube endlessly or playing video games. I make time for things which are productive and skill-based, not time-wasters. I find that you always have time for the things you value.

 

[namae]

[QUOTE="

Please tell me another avenue that one could meet women more effectively. ]

I won't charge you for this guru. ...... but try Friday and Saturday nights after pay day (25th) in any bar in Tokyo, Yokohama or Osaka. Your odds improve further if you put yourself in zones where J-girls go hunting for foreigners. A bit easier than 11 am on the concourse of Tokyo station...I would think. Also when your in those bars...don't play the "get a number game" ... that is charisma man 101. J -girls, like all women ( and men) have needs and wants. They will let you know pretty quickly that they want to go home with you. Quite often you will find your the hunted rather than the hunter. Efficient. Effective.

 

[Ascent]

At the beginning? Even the very experienced pick up artists are generally only claiming low single digit success rates. Japanese nampa guys seem to claim similar success rates.

For example, famous PUA type Krauser claims 27 sexual encounters out of the 1000 approaches he made in 2013 (based on his own blog post). He seemingly only retained 3 girls from his previous year, which does not say much for the retention rates involved either. The provisos are that he is average looking and maybe was not interested in retention, and we don't know what kind of girls he was approaching overall. Even so, a 2.7% success rate...

PUA Paul Janka apparently claims 1.32% over 10,000 approaches, rather suspect in light of how clearly good looking he is, but it is what it is.

Nobody denies these methods work (I know as much myself had some near successes even with strangers - were I to continue I know it would eventually result in success, but then so would randomly asking girls "would you like to have sex?"...), it is a question of return on effort invested, both in developing a specific skill and in putting it into practice on an ongoing basis.

The other realistic options would probably come down to online, social circles, and "warm" approaches (i.e. a venue where there is an appropriate social context and alcohol like a bar).

And of course in talking to a pick up artist offering coaching services one is going to find a certain trend in the responses.

I am in fact agnostic in terms of which approach is best, having had success with online, some with night venues, and very limited luck with approaching and none of the right kind of social circles to work with.

Given the nature of the forum, I can appreciate why you might bring it into the comparison, but I wouldn't consider prostitutes or other women on the money-for-sex trading spectrum comparable here - few sensible men would be considering these women as a potential source of candidates for personal relationships, and nor would I. Although perhaps now I understand why some men favour them as a means of avoiding hassle.

Some would not consider spending hours approaching women time productively spent (time spent with women of course being another matter), and a man concerned both about using his time well and maximising his successes with women would therefore need to compare the returns offered by the various different approaches. This is the essence of "game" - choosing the effective over the ineffective in the sexual arena.

My suspicion is merely that cold approach may actually have quite low rates of return compared to other methods, given the same investment of effort (if you methodically applied the same sort of thinking and time investment to a social circle or night venues for example).

I'm just not seeing how a method requiring the practitioner to spend hundreds of hours approaching thousands of women around station exits and the like can be considered a realistic proposition for most. Hence my initial doubts about whether my results were representative (I'm guessing they are, sadly) or if indeed people really considered this a good option. It would appear an understandable selection bias in favour of successful approaches is at work when people discuss such matters!

 

[Sinapse]

I won't charge you for this guru. ...... but try Friday and Saturday nights after pay day (25th) in any bar in Tokyo, Yokohama or Osaka. Your odds improve further if you put yourself in zones where J-girls go hunting for foreigners. A bit easier than 11 am on the concourse of Tokyo station...I would think. Also when your in those bars...don't play the "get a number game" ... that is charisma man 101. J -girls, like all women ( and men) have needs and wants. They will let you know pretty quickly that they want to go home with you. Quite often you will find your the hunted rather than the hunter. Efficient. Effective.

Yup. Unfortunately there are few bars with high volume, so unless you want to hop from bar to bar buying drinks at each and talking to the one or two eligible women there, or go to a meat market bar like HUB or Scramble, you're still spending a lot of time and money. I like coffee shop game and street game since some of the hottest chicks don't go to pickup bars and foreigner friendly bars. There's always the balance to strike between friendly / easy girls and high class / hot / difficult girls. Sometimes there's a sweet balance, but generally you won't get the best chicks by going to dive bars. I still do it, because a dude's gotta eat, right

For example, famous PUA type Krauser claims 27 sexual encounters out of the 1000 approaches he made in 2013 (based on his own blog post). He seemingly only retained 3 girls from his previous year, which does not say much for the retention rates involved either. The provisos are that he is average looking and maybe was not interested in retention, and we don't know what kind of girls he was approaching overall. Even so, a 2.7% success rate...

PUA Paul Janka apparently claims 1.32% over 10,000 approaches, rather suspect in light of how clearly good looking he is, but it is what it is.

Those are shockingly bad percentages.. Honestly the bar is set pretty low. 27 girls in year and he can't retain chicks either? I think anyone on this forum without acid burns on their face and with a little bit of diligence could top that. My buddy Goshujin (on japanlair / the playbook) had only had two girlfriends until taking a bootcamp with Dorian Gray a little over a year ago. He put a lot of time into going out, and recently the dude has been absolutely killing it. In his first year in the game I think he was in the mid-30s of ladies banged and the quality was really good too. That's not the typical case, but he put in a ton of work and reflection into it. The focus solely on numbers though isn't healthy and overlooks the valuable other changes that happen when practicing game.

Some would not consider spending hours approaching women time productively spent (time spent with women of course being another matter), and a man concerned both about using his time well and maximising his successes with women would therefore need to compare the returns offered by the various different approaches. This is the essence of "game" - choosing the effective over the ineffective in the sexual arena.

My suspicion is merely that cold approach may actually have quite low rates of return compared to other methods, given the same investment of effort (if you methodically applied the same sort of thinking and time investment to a social circle or night venues for example).

I'm just not seeing how a method requiring the practitioner to spend hundreds of hours approaching thousands of women around station exits and the like can be considered a realistic proposition for most. Hence my initial doubts about whether my results were representative (I'm guessing they are, sadly) or if indeed people really considered this a good option. It would appear an understandable selection bias in favour of successful approaches is at work when people discuss such matters!

Yup, if you think of it as time spent trying to get laid it's most certainly not the best use of time. If you only want to get laid it's definitely more time efficient to just go to a prostitute. The thing is, this isn't a use or waste of time, it's an investment. The %s get better and better the longer you get into this, and everything else improves in your life too (fashion, career, social life, etc). Eventually you'll get to the point where just going about your random day not even trying and you casually talk to the girl next to you in line at the conbini, and she ends up in your bed. But you can't really jump the steps and skip the work.

Ultimately it depends on your values. Are you spending your free time doing something more productive? In their free time, everyone should be doing something fitness-related, something finance-related, and something to get better with ladies, in my opinion. It's just part of being a man in the modern day, wanting to improve every aspect of your life. If you're absolutely packed busy every single day including days off with investing or your side business or epic hobbies and you find that valuable then yes, you probably don't have time for game. But if you're sitting around watching movies or playing video games or reading reddit every day, is that really the best use of your time? For the average dude, I'm sure they can find an hour or two a week to go out and talk to some girls, and after enough time, the cold approach really does get easier. If you want it to get easier faster, you're going to have to put in more time and effort.

 

[MossBoss]

If you....go to a meat market bar like HUB or Scramble, you're still spending a lot of time and money.

FYI: There is some grade A ass meat at the Hub these days.

 

[Sinapse]

You are right, good sir.

I live about a 3 minute walk from one of them, and if street is my meat, HUB is my potatoes.

 

[Ascent]

You didn't provide any representative numbers there (not that I am asking - that would be churlish!), which rather proves my point. We know Japanese nampa guys seem to have a low single digit success rate, so unless there is some kind of screening involved - like only approaching based on an indication of interest - it seems everyone involved has similarly dismal levels of success. If you are saying "put a lot of time into going out" and "ton of work" (this probably means thousands of approaches?) then the time could presumably have been invested elsewhere.

I am also aware success rates are so depressing and the psychological stress and unpleasantness of the whole process so loathsome that there is a big emphasis just on "getting into state" and "地蔵" so the practitioner can put up with the amount of time and failure involved. Japanese and non-Japanese pickup guys alike frequently seem to need a group just to maintain the courage to keep doing it. A few of your own writings obliquely brush over this point too, though I can certainly relate based on the inevitable loss of mood a few hours of traipsing around fruitlessly on a Friday night whilst surrounded by couples and packed venues will induce.

You're definitely starting to dodge the issue here. Nobody here mentioned prostitutes or going off to play games as alternative uses of the time involved. Alternative uses of the time involved are other methods of meeting women, approached with the same means-ends rationality implicit in cold approach game. In PUA parlance these would be "night game", "online" and "social circle" (assuming we lump "day game" and "cold approach" together). At least two of which you're likely using with some success as well, so it doubtful street approaching is occurring in a vacuum for you.

And you're being disingenuous to suggest an "average dude" is ever going to rack up the hundreds of approaches which may be needed to get his first success with an hour or two a week, let alone the skill improvements needed to get good. You're instead talking about hundreds of hours invested in thousands of approaches to push a success rate from the low single digits into the higher single digits, which is the point at which the critically thinking man must start to compare and evaluate the alternatives, which are far from easy either, but which may offer more fruitful progress.

 

[Wwanderer]

As an aside, the smaller the success rate of any fixed technique/recipe, the more strongly it is selecting a particular sub-population of all women...those whose personalities, values, attitudes, past experiences, intentions/goals etc make them particularly open/suseptible to that particular approach, whether it is PUA/nampa or some "warm" style and venue or whatever. What might work great with one woman won't work at all for another. Duh..,just common sense of course.

So, in addition to asking whether a particular recipe or technique works well/efficiently (for you), you also need to consider whether it lets you meet and form relationships with the type of women that are of most interest to you. If, like me, you want connections with many types of women, it is better to employ a variety of techniques and it is better still (best I'd say) to employ no set technique at all but rather play it by ear/intuition/impulse on a case-by-case basis.

Good cooks follow recipes; great ones follow their intuitions.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

You didn't provide any representative numbers there

Yeah I mean I could give numbers, but I tend to think that people wouldn't even believe them. I haven't posted long enough on this site for anyone to know who I am or what process I've been through to get here, so it's frankly fair if people don't believe what I'm saying but here goes..

For about 100 approaches on the street, averages might be about 20-30 lines/phone numbers, of which perhaps 50% will come out for a date if I do my diligent texting and dont get lazy, PLUS probably 1-2 SNLs. If they come on a date, probably about 70-80% end in sex or at least a blow job. So I dunno you do the math.. like somewhere around 10% of approaches end in sex? It varies wildly, of course. Sometimes I'll open 30, 40 girls in a day and get like 3-4 lines and none of them come out. Other days I'll open only one girl and SNL her. Each of the "failed" approaches though is probably about a minute of your time, so not much really if you think about it that way.

You can expect less SNLs if you don't live in a major area, and also fewer dates if you live far or at some weird no-name station. Also fewer dates if you can't text well, have weaker first interactions, etc etc.

I always feel icky talking about percentages.. I think its best to ignore that aspect and focus on your own progress - simply, are you doing better than before? If so, great, keep going. If not, re-evaluate. Anyway I don't view the success rate as depressing at all because I find the whole process fun! It shouldn't be work to talk to these girls because talking to them is awesome! You can mess around with them and play with the feminine energy of some person you just met. Cool!

Alternative uses of the time involved are other methods of meeting women, approached with the same means-ends rationality implicit in cold approach game. In PUA parlance these would be "night game", "online" and "social circle"

Sure, now we're talking! I've done it all.. in general the advantages and disadvantages are pretty clear with each of those

Online
----------------
Pros:
Can do in your underwear / on the toilet / whenever. Easy to spam lots of girls.
Cons:
Low quality (both looks and personality), low returns per time invested, huge oversaturation of competition, don't get better at actually talking to girls until one comes out

Personal opinion: Huge waste of time for sub-par girls. I've seen good looking white guys get success from online game though, but thats not me

Bar / Club
-----------------
Pros:
Lots of DTF girls
Can preselect by venue (for b-kei, foreigner friendly, golddigging, young, etc)
Fun (for some people) to be there regardless of girls
Girls don't have anything to do for the night besides have fun
Cons:
Have to deal with the girl's friends
Have to deal with other dudes
Have to deal with lockers, taxis, and more logistics
Expensive
You tend to only meet party girls who are more likely to be playing around all the time and drinking like sailors

Personal opinion: I love night game. Hurts the wallet though, so do more bar and late-night street rather than club.

Social Circle
----------------
Pros:
Super easy, girls are friendly from the beginning, you come pre-selected, etc
Cons:
Low volume (and unless you're a promoter, college student, have really cool friends, etc, not the best quality usually)
can't really hook up with tons of chicks and expect the social circle to keep providing

Personal opinion: Social circle is awesome if you have the right one, but its usually too small to support mass approaches and bangs. If you can create a social circle full of club promoters, DJs, fashion producers, TV/media execs, Talent agents, Photographers, etc, that would probably be the ideal game situation. You have to be helping them out too, though.

Street
---------------
Pros:
Highest quality women
Huge volume, easy to get lots of practice
Doesn't require lots of energy
Free
Meet all kinds of girls, from party girls to goody wife-material types
No competition (at least nobody directly competing with you)
Cons:
Lots of blowouts
Girls sometimes are in a rush/have things to do

Personal opinion: Street is king. For those without the cash to buy access (VIP, exclusive clubs, high level goukons, etc), you can meet those same girls walking around their day. High quality, in looks and personality. Even if you have the cash to buy access, street is a great way to hone your skills so that when you do have the access to those chicks, you have the ability to actually attract and pull them. If you like party girls, street at night is great too, you can just redirect them from being on their way to the club to your house!

 

[Sinapse]

As an aside, the smaller the success rate of any fixed technique/recipe, the more strongly it is selecting a particular sub-population of all women...those whose personalities, values, attitudes, past experiences, intentions/goals etc make them particularly open/suseptible to that particular approach, whether it is PUA/nampa or some "warm" style and venue or whatever. What might work great with one woman won't work at all for another. Duh..,just common sense of course.

So, in addition to asking whether a particular recipe or technique works well/efficiently (for you), you also need to consider whether it lets you meet and form relationships with the type of women that are of most interest to you. If, like me, you want connections with many types of women, it is better to employ a variety of techniques and it is better still (best I'd say) to employ no set technique at all but rather play it by ear/intuition/impulse on a case-by-case basis.

Good cooks follow recipes; great ones follow their intuitions.

-Ww

I agree completely! I'm a huge fan of "no technique" and destroying your crutches or your "routine", and finding your own identity and game