Post-approach Game

[Wwanderer]

Do you ever actually interact in Japanese with girls you aren't plying with cash in some way? Whether they can be blamed on the instigator being non-Japanese is one thing, but there are some extraordinarily fearful and highly strung women about here. Now public enemy number one for talking to strangers in a Starbucks, I know this only too well!

Ww, forgive us if we get confused, because it appears your claimed specialty is buying women. And then apparently her being the perfect actress in proportion to cash being thrown at her. After that, you gave the impression of social circle magic, where you didn't have to do anything but focus on your hobby. And all the women just kind of magically gravitated towards your natural chrisma, interrupted your hobby activities, and approached you for a date. That's great if you got like that, but that doesn't happen for 90% of guys on planet Earth.

If you guys want to talk/ask about me and my interactions with women, that's fine (though I have no clue why you would be so interested); I'm happy to answer any questions you might have, but perhaps we should start a separate thread for the purpose.

However, I don't see how any possible fact about me bears on the question I asked you, namely, what do you mean when you say these (Japanese, let us never forget) women panic. Do the scream, hyperventilate, faint, burst into hysterical tears, scream profanities, throw crockery, put their best akido move on you, run away, require sedation...what are you saying they do? That's all I want to know. Panic is a strong word; do you really mean that strong a reaction. Or is it that they simply don't want to talk to you, much less date you, and that somehow translates to panic in your mind. Or is it something else you mean? You use the term so very frequently, surely you mean something by it.

And note that I was not talking only or even mostly about women interacting with me when I wrote this:

I can't reacll a single instance in my 25 years of experiences in Japan when I have seen a woman do what I would call panicing or greatly overreating to interactions with foreigners

Note bold emphasis. I've never observed what I would call panic in a Japanese woman's interaction with foreign men in general...me, my friends and colleagues, complete strangers, apparent nampa/PUA guys...not anyone. Nor can I recall hearing stories using that word from people I know outside TAG. I simply can't picture what you are describing.

Now I have experienced myself and witnessed countless times Japanese women who ignore foreigners or otherwise make it clear that they do not wish to interact with specific gaijin guys, but that is not what I would call panic. But maybe you would?

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

I've never observed what I would call panic in a Japanese woman's interaction with foreign men in general...me, my friends and colleagues, complete strangers. Nor can I recall hearing stories using that word from people I know outside TAG. I simply can't picture what you are describing.

Now I have experienced myself and witnessed countless times Japanese women who ignore foreigners or otherwise make it clear that they do not wish to interact with specific gaijin guys, but that is not what I would call panic. But maybe you would?

I think what they are referring to is when you talk to a Japanese woman who isn't expecting it, they jump and are quite surprised - much more so than people from other countries tend to be. It sometimes happens among friends or if you bump into each other coming around a corner or something like that but they exclaim "Bikkurishita" much faster and more readily than most foreigners do. I wouldn't really call it "panic" but I know what they are talking about - happens all the time.

This is why I recommend approaching (most of my advice is for walking sets since thats the time you have the shortest time to make your approach - everything else can be calibrated back from this)

-From slightly ahead of her (she should see you before she hears you)
-From about arms' distance away (or more), not too close
-In a very relaxed / deep / casual tone, not too high energy
-Matching her walking pace

 

[Wwanderer]

It sometimes happens among friends or if you bump into each other coming around a corner or something like that but they exclaim "Bikkurishita" much faster and more readily than most foreigners do. I wouldn't really call it "panic" but I know what they are talking about - happens all the time.

I definitely wouldn't call it "panic", not even close, and *if* that is what they mean, it is an extremely uncommon and misleading use of the word.

Moreover, if I understand what you mean, it sounds like an unimportant cultural difference. For example if you saw two old friends suddenly and unexpectedly encounter each other after along period of not being in touch, you would almost certainly observe VERY different reactions if they were locals on the streets of London versus locals on the streets of Rome or Madrid. But so what? It is hard for me to believe that that is all that is meant by "panic"! Panic, as the word is normally used, is a reaction to some extremely dangerous, threatening or dire situation (in the mind of the panicked person, whether or not it is really so).

-Ww

 

[bruv]

I wouldn't call it panic neither, but whatever, splitting hairs. Japanese are very jumpy though in my experience, guys and girls. I've had people literally jump back in surprise when I've stopped them to ask directions, from in front. I often get grown men literally jumping out the way when it looks like our walking paths are about to cross. I got an athletic build but this never happens to me outside Japan. I'm in Singapore atm. Nothing.

 

[Solong]

I definitely wouldn't call it "panic", not even close, and *if* that is what they mean, it is an extremely uncommon and misleading use of the word.

Moreover, if I understand what you mean, it sounds like an unimportant cultural difference. For example if you saw two old friends suddenly and unexpectedly encounter each other after along period of not being in touch, you would almost certainly observe VERY different reactions if they were locals on the streets of London versus locals on the streets of Rome or Madrid. But so what? It is hard for me to believe that that is all that is meant by "panic"! Panic, as the word is normally used, is a reaction to some extremely dangerous, threatening or dire situation (in the mind of the panicked person, whether or not it is really so).

-Ww

If you are not approaching women, why do you want to be disruptive to the discussion or attempt to impose your view on guys that do?

It's like a PUA that never has done sugar dating, telling you how sugar babies are suppose to act or how sugar dating is suppose to happen.

It's best described as "panic", because the woman is startled and overhelmed with fear or acts irrationally.

For example, if a Japanese woman sees a foreigner and then suddenly crosses the street or starts running, such behavior is unnecessary. There is no perceived threat and isn't based on any threatening action. Also a woman acting startled and yelling "Bikkuri shita!" or equivalent to the Western "Oh my God!" because a foreigner simply moved towards them or said "Hello" is an overreaction or odd behavior, that is clearly based on fear and not proportional to any action that has occurred.

Here, we are explaining how to minimize such behavior and reactions, that is commonly seen among Japanese women. And it's much more common behavior in Japan, which is odd by Western standards, because many Western women don't panic nor act as fearful in such a way.

 

[Wwanderer]

If you are not approaching women, why do you want to be disruptive to the discussion or attempt to impose your view on guys that do?

Did I say somewhere that I don't approach women?

In this thread, I am basically just asking a question because 1 - I seriously do routinely wonder what you mean when you say Japanese women panic, and 2 - it sounds implausible to me.

I cannot (and so never attempt to) *impose* my views on anyone in online public forums. I do state my views though, frequently in fact.

It's like a PUA that never has done sugar dating, telling you how sugar babies are suppose to act or how sugar dating is suppose to happen.

A feature of public internet forums is that you cannot control what other participants post or where unless you manage the board and discussing how other participants behave (so called meta-discussion) is almost invariably futile.

If I had to justify my "contributions" to PUA/nampa threads (but I don't), I would point out that they get more likes per post and more support in private messages than most of my posts elsewhere (probably more than most TAG posts in general)...so I guess not everyone finds them unwelcome. But of course, you aren't compelled to read my posts in forums where you find them objectionable for whatever reason, and there's always the block function if you want to avoid my posts in general.

It's best described as "panic", because the woman is startled and overhelmed with fear or acts irrationally.

For example, if a Japanese woman sees a foreigner and then suddenly crosses the street or starts running, such behavior is unnecessary. There is no perceived threat and isn't based on any threatening action. Also a woman acting startled and yelling "Bikkuri shita!" or equivalent to the Western "Oh my God!" because a foreigner simply moved towards them or said "Hello" is an overreaction or odd behavior, that is clearly based on fear and not proportional to any action that has occurred.

That's not what I would call "panic", but thank you for explaining what you mean by the word (at least in the context of TAG discussions).

-Ww

 

[Ascent]

Her Boyfriend(s) And Her "Male Friends"

First, women who are healthy/slim and good looking, are very likely to have some guy(s) "orbiting" around them in some way. Expect yourself to be in COMPETITION for her attention and affection.

That's why you should be keen on how you are presenting yourself. You could be the 2nd or 3rd guy to approach her that day.

The presence of orbiters around a young woman and the volume of approaches she receives (although mostly not from strangers it would seem, given how rarely anything other than stereotypical street nanpa is visible here) is something I am starting to develop a proper awareness of. Having never been a young women I had no idea.

Line timelines can be quite revealing when it comes to seeing how her online interactions go. I can't compete with a bunch of her thirsty former classmates and coworkers in lavishing attention on her even if I was of a mind to, but I'm sure I more than make up for that in quality, inept approach skills notwithstanding.

They are all related. A problem in one area, can affect the other. It might help if you think of it like a performance or presentation, or even like sales or acting. You want to be very silky smooth in how you conduct yourself. How would Harrison Ford, Denzel Washington, or Brad Pitt approach a woman? Find that inner charming person in yourself, and bring that out.

When I think of these guys smoothly approaching their destined lover, I do not envisage them being shot down, ignored or blocked dozens of time per date, so the image is sadly ruptured. I prefer Chris Tucker's endlessly incorrigible and frequently blown off approaches in Rush Hour as a slightly healthier portrayal!

Guy 2-

Has framed their meeting, previous conversation, and possible future conversation/meeting in a positive light. She then is more likely to remember guy 2 and think of him positively.

Guy 1-

A) She's more likely to have forgot who the hell he was.

B) As time has passed, mention him later to a girlfriend or co-worker, who might then tell her about all kinds of paranoid scary psycho playboy killer stories. So now her girlfriend negatively affects how she remembers him.

C) Associate his negative comments with him. When she thinks of Frank, she now has a negative image.

Guy 2 is statistically more likely to convert the contact into a date, then Guy 1. When possible, you want to inject positivity into the correspondence with the woman, especially prior to any 1st dates.

The explanation of positive messaging makes perfect sense. Hard to believe something small like this makes a big difference but it is obvious in retrospect!

I was always speculating that as a potential "handsome foreign playboy" type I do not survive later dissection by her friends who have not met me, eliminating any chance of further interactions unless she is presenting me favourably or is acting independently.

Still, the very frequent issue of warm women not even reading, let alone responding to, any subsequent messages is killing me. I'm not sure if I'm sorely misreading interest in these cases, or if this is simply expected attrition and I need higher numbers.

Furthermore, I never let a woman casually mentioning they have a boyfriend or dating a guy deter me, unless she mentions numerous time and is clearly using to cut the conversation off. Because many women have confused or complicated situations, or she is CLEARLY interested in us continuing the conversation. So, I allow the situation to play itself out and see where it will go.

If she says, she is married, then I politely drop talking to her. I don't mess with married women, unless she is in an open-marriage or in a swinger context where the husband is offering his wife to me.

Nor do I (I never ask either), but I run into situations where she is saying "I need to ask my boyfriend if I can meet you alone", so it is obviously a blocking issue and something went wrong in the interaction for me to have gotten her number. Or she is just clueless or inexperienced and doesn't realise what situation she is in. Perhaps explicitly enquiring "are you single?" would be a good idea, I had thought not until now.

 

[Ascent]

Did I say somewhere that I don't approach women?

Approaching women to offer them money is a business transaction, not an effort to start a sexual relationship with someone new, which is what we mean by "approach" (and the reason talking to female shop assistants and the like does not qualify). We were discussing the latter point. Trying to rationalise relationships based on pecuniary gain as being based on female attraction to your attractive masculine qualities seems a dubious exercise.

If I had to justify my "contributions" to PUA/nampa threads (but I don't), I would point out that they get more likes per post and more support in private messages than most of my posts elsewhere (probably more than most TAG posts in general)...so I guess not everyone finds them unwelcome.

More likes and support on a prostitution forum versus actual improvements and progress in my ability to create and sustain sexual relationships with beautiful women? I know which one I would choose. That's why I started this thread.

 

[Sinapse]

If I had to justify my "contributions" to PUA/nampa threads (but I don't), I would point out that they get more likes per post and more support in private messages than most of my posts elsewhere (probably more than most TAG posts in general)...so I guess not everyone finds them unwelcome.

This is more indicative of this community than it is of your insight into cold approach. For what it's worth, I value your opinion and contributions but I wouldn't say likes are a good indicator of value given to a thread... Rather they are an easy way for people to agree with you (and on a forum where most people are against cold approach, it's not surprising really)

When I think of these guys smoothly approaching their destined lover, I do not envisage them being shot down, ignored or blocked dozens of time per date, so the image is sadly ruptured. I prefer Chris Tucker's endlessly incorrigible and frequently blown off approaches in Rush Hour as a slightly healthier portrayal!

This is great. I tend to not tell guys to be like James Bond or smooth, but instead to embrace the ugly set. In practice, you become "smooth" and get good game by being able to deal with all sorts of crazy situations as they occur. I've had situations where her friends are pulling her away and a taxi driver is yelling in my ear and she's typing her LINE into my phone as the car is pulling away, but in the end she ends up coming out on a date and we totally click and date for a long time. If you're overly concerned about appearing smooth, you're going to eject too soon and make more mental excuses.

Perhaps explicitly enquiring "are you single?" would be a good idea

I think this is a bad idea. It gives her an easy way to show disinterest and usually bears little reality on whether or not she actually does have a boyfriend.

 

[Chocoballs]

I think it's fair that Wwanderer just asked for clarification about what is meant with panic. Startled and panic do sound a bit different.

And he seems smart enough to know the difference between approaching and paying

 

[Chocoballs]

Maybe he was expecting something like this

 

[Wwanderer]

And he seems smart enough to know the difference between approaching and paying

Well, it ain't rocket science to know the difference that's, for sure.

And since some guys seem so much more interested in discussing me (a sort of soft ad hominem tactic) than in discussing what I say, let me clarify that I have never ever approached a woman offering to pay her for sex in any form unless she first self-identified herself as a sex worker in some extremely clear way.

(In general, if you criticize or even just question someone and their response is to attack you or to question your right or qualifications to do so, it is a strong indication that they do not have a response to the criticism or answer to the question which they regard as adequate. You can watch politicians make their livings largely off various forms of this tactic.)

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

This is more indicative of this community than it is of your insight into cold approach. For what it's worth, I value your opinion and contributions but I wouldn't say likes are a good indicator of value given to a thread... Rather they are an easy way for people to agree with you (and on a forum where most people are against cold approach, it's not surprising really)

Uh...ok, probably true, but isn't the *only* value of the thread its value to the TAG community and the only value, if any, of my contributions their value to the TAG community? They are both of zero value to those (poor lost souls) who do not read TAG, right?

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

Uh...ok, probably true, but isn't the *only* value of the thread its value to the TAG community and the only value, if any, of my contributions their value to the TAG community? They are both of zero value to those (poor lost souls) who do not read TAG, right?

-Ww

May I propose the radical idea that value and popularity are NOT the same thing at all. In fact, pretty much every valuable idea started off incredibly unpopular

 

[Wwanderer]

Approaching women to offer them money is a business transaction, not an effort to start a sexual relationship with someone new, which is what we mean by "approach" (and the reason talking to female shop assistants and the like does not qualify). We were discussing the latter point. Trying to rationalise relationships based on pecuniary gain as being based on female attraction to your attractive masculine qualities seems a dubious exercise.

Fwiiw, nothing I say about PUA/nampa/gaming has the slightest thing to do with p4p in my mind. I only discuss p4p in this forum if someone else brings it up. And fwiiw, I have had more np4p relationships with women than the large majority of men. So it is hardly the case that p4p is all I know. That said, my experience with cold-PUA is quite small and entirely unstudied and unpremeditated. But once more, it would be more useful to address my comments than my qualifications to make them.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

May I propose the radical idea that value and popularity are NOT the same thing at all. In fact, pretty much every valuable idea started off incredibly unpopular

As did most worthless ones. But anyway, I am not claiming value so much as an indication that many on TAG would NOT prefer that I stay out of PUA threads...not that I would even if they did.

But enough with the meta-discussion...feel free to go back to discussion of panic suppresion techniques. At least I (and maybe others) have a better idea of what you mean now and can better form our own opinions about it. They may end up cancelling Project Chill, at vast savings to the taxpayers of Japan, knowing that it is a very mild form of panic...no hordes of screaming women rushing headlong into the sea or anything.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

I wouldn't call it panic neither, but whatever, splitting hairs. Japanese are very jumpy though in my experience, guys and girls. I've had people literally jump back in surprise when I've stopped them to ask directions, from in front. I often get grown men literally jumping out the way when it looks like our walking paths are about to cross. I got an athletic build but this never happens to me outside Japan. I'm in Singapore atm. Nothing.

To be perfectly honest.....this has happened to me "once" in my 17+ years here in Tokyo. Standing next to a woman on the train I said "Excuse me" and I thought she was going to explode.....she didn't but after a few seconds she calmed down (she was reading a book btw.....maybe it was a thriller and just as I spoke someone did something scary in the book) but then again.....once in 17 years.......and I'm scary looking to a lot of Japanese me thinks

 

[Solong]

Fwiiw, nothing I say about PUA/nampa/gaming has the slightest thing to do with p4p in my mind. I only discuss p4p in this forum if someone else brings it up. And fwiiw, I have had more np4p relationships with women than the large majority of men. So it is hardly the case that p4p is all I know. That said, my experience with cold-PUA is quite small and entirely unstudied and unpremeditated. But once more, it would be more useful to address my comments than my qualifications to make them.

-Ww

Ww, we did address your question. But it appears you didn't like the answer, and I question if this might be a political correct or defensive mindset where Japanese culture is concerned. We've had many "confrontations" where if somebody points out a difference between Japanese and Westerners, it makes some upset.

Please remember that identifying possible culture differences between Japanese and Westerners does not mean it's racist or derogatory. I've noticed many differences between American and Germany culture, but this isn't an insult to Germans or Americans.

Let's review the definition of panic.

Panic

1. Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behaviour.

synonyms: alarm, anxiety, nervousness, fear, fright, trepidation, dread, terror, horror, agitation, hysteria, consternation, perturbation, dismay, disquiet, apprehension, apprehensiveness; be alarmed, be scared, be nervous, be afraid, overreact, become panic-stricken, take fright, be filled with fear, be terrified, be agitated, be hysterical, lose one's nerve, be perturbed, get overwrought, get worked up, go/fall to pieces, lose control, fall apart;

The word "panic" aptly describes the behavior various Japanese show, and particularly fear of strangers or being in new situations, where they react oddly or irrationally.

Ww, in your situation, you might be around a limited number of people/Japanese, that you know well. Where this behavior wouldn't be exhibited. My Japanese co-workers and neighbors, that I have known for years, don't react negatively in such a way.

Also, you might be imagining the most extreme version of the behavior, where a woman is screaming at the top of her lungs. Panic, has different levels, and doesn't have to exhibit itself to that level or only 1 form. For instance, if a guy is afraid of drowning because he can't swim and is near a pool so starts to panic, he doesn't have to be running in a circle and screaming. We might just see him acting very weird and various levels in between.

 

[bruv]

To be perfectly honest.....this has happened to me "once" in my 17+ years here in Tokyo. Standing next to a woman on the train I said "Excuse me" and I thought she was going to explode.....she didn't but after a few seconds she calmed down (she was reading a book btw.....maybe it was a thriller and just as I spoke someone did something scary in the book) but then again.....once in 17 years.......and I'm scary looking to a lot of Japanese me thinks [emoji14]

You got some catching up to do then mate, I'm clearly winning [emoji14]

Tbh its no biggie. Could just be down to so many introverts in Japan. Being suddenly jolted back to earth when your head's in the clouds is gonna be a bumpy ride yo

 

[just4fun]

You got some catching up to do then mate, I'm clearly winning [emoji14]

Tbh its no biggie. Could just be down to so many introverts in Japan. Being suddenly jolted back to earth when your head's in the clouds is gonna be a bumpy ride yo

I'll let you win.......

 

[Solong]

When I think of these guys smoothly approaching their destined lover, I do not envisage them being shot down, ignored or blocked dozens of time per date, so the image is sadly ruptured. I prefer Chris Tucker's endlessly incorrigible and frequently blown off approaches in Rush Hour as a slightly healthier portrayal!

Actually, I agree with you and Sinapse. I think Chris Tucker, Eddie Murphy, or Steve Martin would be better examples than say Denzel Washington, Billy Dee Williams, or James Bond. Chris, Eddie, or Steve would make it more fun and can more easily recover from making mistakes. Pulling off a Denzel, Billy, or James Bond would add more pressure and be more difficult.

The explanation of positive messaging makes perfect sense. Hard to believe something small like this makes a big difference but it is obvious in retrospect!

I was always speculating that as a potential "handsome foreign playboy" type I do not survive later dissection by her friends who have not met me, eliminating any chance of further interactions unless she is presenting me favourably or is acting independently.

This injection of pleasantries and positive vibes, is also about "framing" the interaction. I would suggest, that you frame how it went and is going, as much as possible. You verbalizing or typing how it went, can influence how she thinks it went. If you frame the interaction as positive, she can feel it was positive too.

Also something very important to point out, is that if left up to her to solely frame how the interaction went or letting her friends do it, can result in the women giving it the most NEGATIVE interpretation possible. The more fear, insecurity, or paranoia that grips her mind, or those friends she is talking to, than usually the more negative the interpretation it's going to be. Handsome and fun to talk with Westerner, can be quite easily morphed into "cunning con-man Western playboy". So better you clarify and inject how you are, what you are about, and how you feel it went into the conversation and messaging.

Nor do I (I never ask either), but I run into situations where she is saying "I need to ask my boyfriend if I can meet you alone", so it is obviously a blocking issue and something went wrong in the interaction for me to have gotten her number. Or she is just clueless or inexperienced and doesn't realise what situation she is in. Perhaps explicitly enquiring "are you single?" would be a good idea, I had thought not until now.

I would advise NEVER to ask women if they are single or seeing someone. It will more likely hurt you than help you. Many women, ESPECIALLY good looking ones, can be in some very messy and convoluted relationship situations, or she's totally confused about what she wants to do.

Focus on you and her. If a boyfriend is mentioned, I may ignore what she said or will remind her that she's not married yet and still have options if she so chooses. If he was a serious boyfriend, he would have put a ring on her finger and have announced the wedding day.

In addition, and particularly in Japan, many Westerners may not realize that even though she claims to have a boyfriend it is more what us Westerners consider FWB/sex-friend that she sees occasionally or a form of open-relationship where they see or have sex with other people.

As a PUA, you have to not let anything a woman says, throw you off your game, unless it's a deal breaker for you. That is, your "line in the sand", not her's. And I heard women say all kinds of odd, twisted, confused, or convoluted things. The true test isn't just her words, but her ACTIONS.

If her intent is truly to block and cut you off, let it play itself out. I've had women tell me they are living with their boyfriend, yet walk with me to the hotel that very same night, and keep seeing me and having sex weeks and months later.