Rampage In Fukuoka: 7 Snls In 3 Days!

[Solong]

I've also noticed an interesting pattern. Most of the self-proclaimed seasoned PUA seem to have the greatest difficulties with the women members on TAG, often causing the women considerable frustration and sometimes anger. Hmm...

Most PUAs are not interested in "picking up" prostitutes. Nor would most of them be SIMPs, that are easily manipulated by any profile that is believed to be female.

Think about it!

 

[Solong]

So according to what you are saying, it can be logically deduced, all things being equal, that therefore a heterosexual man has little to no understanding of other heterosexual men (beyond the personal subjective experience) and no understanding of the issue from the perspective of a woman.

That means, if a woman describes a man's actions as "rape-y" or chooses to run away from them, a heterosexual man cannot possibly understand this issue from the perspective of these women. It would be ridiculous to try and discount or deny the women's views or actions because the heterosexual man would be strictly speaking from a completely and equally ignorant position. Is this correct? Because otherwise, a heterosexual man, who has never been with another man, would be placing a GREATER value on his own personal, subjective experience over the woman's perspective of other men, of which he knows nothing about.



Okay, let's have a closer look, if my understanding of "straw man fallacy" is accurate and correctly applied in this case. Apologies in advance if I'm wrong. Here is the original quote:



Here is the definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

Here is the structure of a straw man fallacy from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Structure

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person 1 asserts proposition X.
2. Person 2 argues against superficially similar proposition Y, falsely, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

In this case:
Person 1 asserted that this part of the story was 'rape-y': "After a while, I escalate on her, and she gives many of the standard resistance lines."
Person 2 argues that being "reluctant" to buy a car but buying it anyways does not mean it was forced, therefore "reluctance" is not rape. As if being reluctant to buy a car was an argument against resistance to sex being rape-y.

@Solong Please tell me how I don't "appear to know what a straw man is". Also, please let me know where exactly I have "arbitrarily" labelled your argument and how in particular I have demonstrated my "failure to understand the analogy", because the above looks painfully clear and simple to understand.

Thank you!

You need to learn what an anology is. Here, let me help you.

Simple Definition of analogy

: a comparison of two things based on their being alike in some way

: the act of comparing two things that are alike in some way

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy

The salesman analogy is demonstrating that a buyer can be reluctant, hesitant, or resistant to the idea of buying a product, but it is not "forced" or "raped", if pesuaded to buy it anyway.

A woman can be resistant or reluctant to the idea of having sex with a particular man, but not be "forced" or "raped", because she was persuaded or seduced into having sex.

You might not like the analogy, but it's clearly NOT a straw man.

 

[Wwanderer]

easily manipulated by any profile that is believed to be female.

What does that mean?? Do you doubt that the person behind the profiles of some of the (very few) profiles claiming to belong to a female are actually women?? Seems weird, but in any case, some TAG member and often @TAG Manager has met the large majority of them. Maybe you mean something else?

-Ww

 

[Solong]

What does that mean?? Do you doubt that the person behind the profiles of some of the (very few) profiles claiming to belong to a female are actually women?? Seems weird, but in any case, some TAG member and often @TAG Manager has met the large majority of them. Maybe you mean something else?

-Ww

Didn't claim none of the women are real, but rather SIMPs tend to be easily manipulated by any profile they think are female.

 

[Midlife Crisis]

Didn't claim none of the women are real, but rather SIMPs tend to be easily manipulated by any profile they think are female.

@Wwanderer i think he means they're actually scared of women, or at least the possibility of being misled by one.

 

[just4fun]

A woman can be resistant or reluctant to the idea of having sex with a particular man, but not be "forced" or "raped", because she was persuaded or seduced into having sex.

You know, there are women who have been killed, cut up and left in bathtubs here in this
country because she has said "No" to certain individuals and that certain person didn't like that answer.

 

[Solong]

What you are saying as a response doesn't make any sense. Where was it that I justified or condoned murder?

Also, to persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request something isn't the same as force, rape, or murder.

 

[Wwanderer]

Also, to persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request something isn't the same as force, rape, or murder.

Perhaps @just4fun's point is that a young, inexperienced and perhaps drunk woman, who is much smaller and weaker than the guy, might fear that his persistent sexual aggressiveness (which is what PUAs/gamers call "escalating", I think?) could quickly turn to violence if she resists his advances too strongly and so give into him when she definitely would not do so absent the (imagined) duress. Her fears might well be fed by hysterical media coverage of violent foreigners (think rapacious US Marines in Okinawa), scare stories told by xenophobes etc. You'd perhaps call this paranoia and panic or an inability to distinguish real from hypothetical threats, but what you think of it is irrelevant, at least in a legal sense.

In other words, what you might intend as "persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request" could be perceived as rape via (imagined) threat of force or murder.

I't not saying that such a situation and outcome is at all common; surely it is quite rare. But for me personally, I'd rather make damn sure it never happens even once with any of my dates.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

What you are saying as a response doesn't make any sense. Where was it that I justified or condoned murder?

Also, to persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request something isn't the same as force, rape, or murder.

Talk to Ted Bundy......one of the more PUA kings.......

 

[just4fun]

Perhaps @just4fun's point is that a young, inexperienced and perhaps drunk woman, who is much smaller and weaker than the guy, might fear that his persistent sexual aggressiveness (which is what PUAs/gamers call "escalating", I think?) could quickly turn to violence if she resists his advances too strongly and so give into him when she definitely would not do so absent the (imagined) duress. Her fears might well be fed by hysterical media coverage of violent foreigners (think rapacious US Marines in Okinawa), scare stories told by xenophobes etc. You'd perhaps call this paranoia and panic or an inability to distinguish real from hypothetical threats, but what you think of it is irrelevant, at least in a legal sense.

In other words, what you might intend as "persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request" could be perceived as rape via (imagined) threat of force or murder.

I't not saying that such a situation and outcome is at all common; surely it is quite rare. But for me personally, I'd rather make damn sure it never happens even once with any of my dates.

-Ww

Plus for years........Japanese women who were molested on trains.....followed home and assaulted would never go to the police for being "shamed" and police would look at them and think they were "asking for it" with the way they were dressed.......this is another reason why there's a low crime rate here in this country because so many "crimes" are never reported......

 

[Solong]

Perhaps @just4fun's point is that a young, inexperienced and perhaps drunk woman, who is much smaller and weaker than the guy, might fear that his persistent sexual aggressiveness (which is what PUAs/gamers call "escalating", I think?) could quickly turn to violence if she resists his advances too strongly and so give into him when she definitely would not do so absent the (imagined) duress. Her fears might well be fed by hysterical media coverage of violent foreigners (think rapacious US Marines in Okinawa), scare stories told by xenophobes etc. You'd perhaps call this paranoia and panic or an inability to distinguish real from hypothetical threats, but what you think of it is irrelevant, at least in a legal sense.

In other words, what you might intend as "persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request" could be perceived as rape via (imagined) threat of force or murder.

I't not saying that such a situation and outcome is at all common; surely it is quite rare. But for me personally, I'd rather make damn sure it never happens even once with any of my dates.

-Ww

Plus for years........Japanese women who were molested on trains.....followed home and assaulted would never go to the police for being "shamed" and police would look at them and think they were "asking for it" with the way they were dressed.......this is another reason why there's a low crime rate here in this country because so many "crimes" are never reported......

This is getting ridiculous! Let's throw up any frivolous argument aligned with a pro-prostitution or feminist "blame everything on men" agenda.

So talking with women = murder, death, kill now? While BUYING women = perfectly acceptable moral transaction. Really? You guys need to get out of that bizarre alternate dimension.

Prostitution = Rape, All Sex = Rape, Talking to Women = Rape... Yes, ridiculous!

OK, let's talk all about the prostitutes that were "forced" to do it and are sex slaves. The underage prostitutes, let's not forget them... Look at all prostitutes murdered by crazy Johns. Can women really be prostitutes of their own free will or is it all the fault of the patriarchy forcing them to become that?

It's not like life is perfectly safe and we can enter a safety bubble and suck on Mom's breast milk forever.

 

[Wwanderer]

This is getting ridiculous! Let's throw up any frivolous argument aligned with a pro-prostitution or feminist "blame everything on men" agenda.

OK, let's talk all about the prostitutes that were "forced" to do it and are sex slaves. The underage prostitutes, let's not forget them... Look at all prostitutes murdered by crazy Johns.

It's not like life is perfectly safe and we can enter a safety bubble and suck on Mom's breast milk forever.

An excellent example of a "non-denial denial"! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial

You did not dispute a single word or point in my post. In other words, calling something "ridiculous", "frivolous", "aligned with..." is not denying that it is correct. Talking about different topics, mistreatment and murder of prostitutes or the fact that the world is not perfectly safe, is also not denying anything.

If I were the sort to jump to conclusions, I'd think that you are agreeing with me.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Perhaps @just4fun's point is that a young, inexperienced and perhaps drunk woman, who is much smaller and weaker than the guy, might fear that his persistent sexual aggressiveness (which is what PUAs/gamers call "escalating", I think?) could quickly turn to violence if she resists his advances too strongly and so give into him when she definitely would not do so absent the (imagined) duress. Her fears might well be fed by hysterical media coverage of violent foreigners (think rapacious US Marines in Okinawa), scare stories told by xenophobes etc. You'd perhaps call this paranoia and panic or an inability to distinguish real from hypothetical threats, but what you think of it is irrelevant, at least in a legal sense.

-Ww

This is a HUGE straw man!

This entire part of the argument is based on a ridiculous hypothetical that can in no way be shown to be representative of any, most, or even some interactions between men and women or PUAs.

I argue it's more your imagination, to align with your negative view of PUA, pro-prostitution, and personal beliefs.

 

[Manfreidi]

I have reviewed this thread over the last two days and it left unhappy. I think I understand why now.

we have one group people accusing another group of operating in grey area. However it is the said accusers who are most certainly living in a very dark grey area and even making their income from it.

I would all your thoughts on this, particularly the accusers, before we continue onwards on a path of accusations regarding situations you have not witnessed.

 

[Wwanderer]

This entire part of the argument is based on a ridiculous hypothetical that can in no way be shown to be representative of any, most, or even some interactions between men and women or PUAs.

I agree in the sense that I already posited that "surely it is quite rare", and indeed I cannot *show*, as in *prove*, that it has ever occurred at all (I certainly hope it hasn't!).

However, to me at least, it does not sound so extremely ridiculous and implausible. I can easily imagine it happening sometimes. I have known women who are fearful and easily intimidated enough that I can easily imagine them having that sort of reaction. I am thinking particularly of one beautiful young woman I met years ago who was repeatedly raped as a small child and beaten when she resisted. (I am not sure I have ever seen anyone so upset as she was when she managed to find the courage to talk to me about it.) Do you have such a very hard time imagining someone like her reacting as I described above? I don't.

My point is that it doesn't matter how rare it is. If it happens even once when a guy could have avoided it, that's one time waaaaay too many imo.

Btw, what I'm saying applies to men in general being aggressive sexually with women they don't know well (with whom they don't have a previous relationship) and can occur whether or not he is a PUA/gamer/whatever and however he met her. It can even come up in p4p, especially in sugar dating situations. In other words, I'm not talking about PUA here but about male sexual aggressiveness...but I do have the impression that PUA/gaming encourages/teaches such behavior in men.

My strong advice would be to *never* try to push past even the slightest sign of resistance to your sexual advances from a woman whom you don't know well and with whom you have not had previous intimacies. This sounds absurdly cautious, I know, but I think it is justified by the asymmetric consequence function.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

This is a HUGE straw man!

This entire part of the argument is based on a ridiculous hypothetical that can in no way be shown to be representative of any, most, or even some interactions between men and women or PUAs.

I argue it's more your imagination, to align with your negative view of PUA, pro-prostitution, and personal beliefs.

but buying a car fits the story better? (sigh)

 

[Solong]

but buying a car fits the story better? (sigh)

In an anology, you are making a DIRECT comparison or illustrating a similarity between 2 arguments, concepts, or positions.

In a strawman you are misrepresenting the opposing person's position.

Look up the difference betweenan anology and strawman. Ww's hypothetical was a ridiculous misrepresentation of PUAs and their interactions.

 

[just4fun]

In an anology, you are making a DIRECT comparison or illustrating a similarity between 2 arguments, concepts, or positions.

In a strawman you are misrepresenting the opposing person's position.

Look up the difference betweenan anology and strawman. Ww's hypothetical was a ridiculous misrepresentation of PUAs and their interactions.

Cars and sex? Only if we're talking back seats or Ferraris.

 

[Wwanderer]

This is not particularly about PUA (by any of its names or in any of its apparently endless forms); it is about "escalating" and being sexually aggressive with women who are mildly resisting your advances. Such situations can arise in many different ways. In fact, they happen quite a bit in sugar dating situations.

Anyway, I'd love to have the reactions of @Sinapse and @Solong and any other guys who feel comfortable being sexually aggreassive/pushy with women whom they don't know well and with whom they have not had sex previously to what I wrote in the two posts quoted below:

Perhaps @just4fun's point is that a young, inexperienced and perhaps drunk woman, who is much smaller and weaker than the guy, might fear that his persistent sexual aggressiveness (which is what PUAs/gamers call "escalating", I think?) could quickly turn to violence if she resists his advances too strongly and so give into him when she definitely would not do so absent the (imagined) duress. Her fears might well be fed by hysterical media coverage of violent foreigners (think rapacious US Marines in Okinawa), scare stories told by xenophobes etc. You'd perhaps call this paranoia and panic or an inability to distinguish real from hypothetical threats, but what you think of it is irrelevant, at least in a legal sense.

In other words, what you might intend as "persuade, convince, seduce, negotiate, or request" could be perceived as rape via (imagined) threat of force or murder.

I't not saying that such a situation and outcome is at all common; surely it is quite rare. But for me personally, I'd rather make damn sure it never happens even once with any of my dates.

However, to me at least, it does not sound so extremely ridiculous and implausible. I can easily imagine it happening sometimes. I have known women who are fearful and easily intimidated enough that I can easily imagine them having that sort of reaction. I am thinking particularly of one beautiful young woman I met years ago who was repeatedly raped as a small child and beaten when she resisted. (I am not sure I have ever seen anyone so upset as she was when she managed to find the courage to talk to me about it.) Do you have such a very hard time imagining someone like her reacting as I described above? I don't.

My point is that it doesn't matter how rare it is. If it happens even once when a guy could have avoided it, that's one time waaaaay too many imo.

The only reaction so far is that @Solong has called the scenario ridiculous (another non-denial denial?) but hasn't explained why he finds it so.

Does anyone not believe that women such as the one I describe in the above quote in bold exist? Does anyone believe that they would never react to male sexual aggressiveness as I describe? Does anyone think that a man has no responsibility to avoid further harming these already heavily damaged women?

My hunch is that many guys don't want to consider the type of possibility I point out because it is inconvenient and interferes with their goal of getting into the panties of as many attractive women as possible...but please explain to me how/why I'm wrong if you disagree.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

This is not particularly about PUA (by any of its names or in any of its apparently endless forms); it is about "escalating" and being sexually aggressive with women who are mildly resisting your advances. Such situations can arise in many different ways. In fact, they happen quite a bit in sugar dating situations.

Anyway, I'd love to have the reactions of @Sinapse and @Solong and any other guys who feel comfortable being sexually aggreassive/pushy with women whom they don't know well and with whom they have not had sex previously to what I wrote in the two posts quoted below:





The only reaction so far is that @Solong has called the scenario ridiculous (another non-denial denial?) but hasn't explained why he finds it so.

Does anyone not believe that women such as the one I describe in the above quote in bold exist? Does anyone believe that they would never react to male sexual aggressiveness as I describe? Does anyone think that a man has no responsibility to avoid further harming these already heavily damaged women?

My hunch is that many guys don't want to consider the type of possibility I point out because it is inconvenient and interferes with their goal of getting into the panties of as many attractive women as possible...but please explain to me how/why I'm wrong if you disagree.

-Ww

Look, nobody should physically restrain or assault women. Let them leave if they have any desire to. If they are unwilling to stand up and leave, you can't be expected to imagine these extreme situations MIGHT be happening inside of their mind. It's a ton of speculation with zero evidence and really more about what you want to believe than what is actually true.

If a girl doesn't want to have sex with a guy, she WILL leave or say NO. I don't think this mystery demographic of "unable to say no" exists.

 

[Wwanderer]

I don't think this mystery demographic of "unable to say no" exists.

I am seriously extremely sorry to know and thus to have to tell you that you are wrong. The do exist, at least if the apparently heartfelt testimony of such women themselves is to be believed. I have met one and known her well. Whether these quite rare cases should affect one's behavior is a question I cannot answer for anyone else. But after what I witnessed her going through in a night that seemed to have no end, there is only one possible answer that works for me.

I should not give the impression that this point relies on my personal anecdotal evidence, as much as it might have moved and convinced me. I'm pretty sure that you could find psychiatric case studies and probably records of court proceedings as well that would tell similar stories.

I suspect you are still young and inexperienced enough that you have not yet witnessed how utterly black the darkest parts of some people's lives and minds can become. At least I hope that you have not.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

I am seriously extremely sorry to know and thus to have to tell you that you are wrong. The do exist, at least if the apparently heartfelt testimony of such women themselves is to be believed. I have met one and known her well. Whether these quite rare cases should affect one's behavior is a question I cannot answer for anyone else. But after what I witnessed her going through in a night that seemed to have no end, there is only one possible answer that works for me.

I should not give the impression that this point relies on my personal anecdotal evidence, as much as it might have moved and convinced me. I'm pretty sure that you could find psychiatric case studies and probably records of court proceedings as well at would tell similar stories.

I suspect you are still young and inexperienced enough that you have not yet witnessed how utterly black the darkest parts of some people's lives and minds can become. At least I hope that you have not.

-Ww

Well, I make a habit to SUGGEST they leave. It's not even just the fact that they know or suspect it's an option - I actively suggest that if they feel uncomfortable that they can leave - no pressure at all. If they don't even take a suggestion to leave.. I don't really think they can expect much. People aren't mind-readers.

As for experience - I have had FAR more than my fair share of experience at my age in this realm (and I wouldn't claim to have more experience than my years in other areas) and I have seen quite a bit of how dark the soul goes. Interestingly, these days, people who are generally more 'broken', negative, or generally dark tend to gravitate away from me. Back when I was starting out this journey into gaming and seduction I used to run into a lot of questionable women and people in general. Now it rarely happens, or if it happens it is short lived. It seems the universe guides them away from me. I think you tend to attract people who are 'energetically similar' to you. Sounds a bit new age-y.. but if someone is attracting a lot of dark personality types, I would wonder if that person themselves is that same personality type. I'm still trying to understand how this actually works - but it definitely seems to be more than coincidence to me.

 

[Solong]

@Solong[/USER] and any other guys who feel comfortable being sexually aggreassive/pushy with women whom they don't know well and with whom they have not had sex previously to what I wrote in the two posts quoted below:
-Ww

Please avoid mischaracterizing or insinuating about PUA or male interactions with females as if only or mainly sexually aggressive or pushy. This appears to border falling down the slippery slope of characterizing male and female interactions as "rape-y" or the feminist insanity of "all sex is rape".

I also view women as EQUALLY intelligent and as responsible, as men. I don't view adult women as children who are incapable of making decisions. I see this thinking as a problem of traditional chivalry and the modern "white knight" problem. Where various men attempt to impose "protections" on women, as if they were stupid, children, or can't be held accountable for their actions. Feminist groups actually use this against such foolish men to attain "special privileges", under the guise of "special protections".

Women also like sex too. There is another form of problematic thinking, from the repressed Victorian age and various religions, where women are mainly "sexual victims" who dislike sex and men are primarily "sexual predators" who force sex.

As for myself personally, I proceed only as far as the woman appears comfortable. I never use physical force and if a woman says "no", I have zero problem getting up and leaving. A good PUA has OTHER options, so doesn't need to be desperate or force a specific woman.

Where some here seem to be getting confused, is the middle ground of "MAYBE". Not everything is only "Yes" or "No", Black or White. There is MIDDLE ground and "gray" areas in between.

A woman can be reluctant, hesistant, or confused about what she wants to do. It is perfectly fine to attempt to persuade, seduce, convince, calm, or reassure a woman.

For instance, a woman might have fears and insecurities about her body, weight, breasts size, vaginal smell, etc... These fears and insecurities might make her hesitant and reluctant about sex. She might be even very embarrassed about talking about such issues. This can result in what PUAs have given a label to, LMR (Last Minute Resistance).

There is nothing wrong with a man or PUA trying to verbally assure, convince, or calm a woman down about her insecurities or fears related to sex. It is also part of the natural communicate process between men and women.

 

[meiji]

Please avoid mischaracterizing or insinuating about PUA or male interactions with females as if only or mainly sexually aggressive or pushy. This appears to border falling down the slippery slope of characterizing male and female interactions as "rape-y" or the feminist insanity of "all sex is rape".

Not really topical, but since this is the thousandth mention of the word -- You realize that your constant badmouthing of feminism is not constructive to your cause, right?

 

[Solong]

Not really topical, but since this is the thousandth mention of the word -- You realize that your constant badmouthing of feminism is not constructive to your cause, right?

Was responding to Ww. And "all sex is rape" and anti PIV (Penis In Vagina) are famous phrases directly attributed to feminists. I also don't understand why badmouthing feminism should be a problem for me, unless you as a mod are a feminist and it makes you angry. The bulk of what I typed wasn't talking about feminism specifically.