Sex On The 2nd Or 3rd Date

[Solong]

This can be a troublesome sticking point for many men, in terms of not knowing when to "go for it" on a date or even not understand what's going "wrong" and they not making progress on previous dates. Some men going on 4th, 5th, etc... dates and going absolutely nowhere. I will dare do what few other PUAs have ever done, using a swinger's perspective, and explain what's "going wrong".

First, let's define what a 1st date is. There is sex on the 1st day (SNL- Same Night Lay) and sex on the 1st date, these are DIFFERENT. Sex on the 1st day/SNL, is on that same day in which you met the woman. Like meeting her in a disco, then taking her to the bathroom or hotel nearby for sex. If you only got her contacts, did NOT have sex, and then agreed to meet another day and had sex, that's sex on the 1st date. And actually, it's the 2ND time you have met her. If you met her online/Internet, then that's a 1st date too, because you have usually exchanged lots of messages previously.

. 1st/SNL

This requires almost immediate rapport and often relies heavily on looks (both being strongly physically attracted), mood (particular her being or getting into a sexual mood), strong sexual charisma by the guy, and also situational awarness by the guy. Understanding that sex is possible with her and knowing a place where he can take her to have sex.

The key point, regardless of the conversation the guy has with her (which is still very important-see Verbal Escalation in other PUA threads), is her being comfortable with the guy touching her (see Physical Escalation in other PUA threads). Then physically escalating to hugging. Hugging can take many forms. Dancing close, arm over her shoulder, hugging her arould the waist, her sitting on your lap and her hands around your shoulders, etc...

At the "hugging point", it's a matter of the guy "pulling the trigger". That is progressing to kissing her and then taking her to a place where sex is possible (see Geographical Escalation in other threads), or taking her directly to a place where sex is possible and then going for sex. Kissing is the intermediate step, which is very important, but may not be necessary depending on the woman and situation. Some women, particularly in Asia (to include Japan) can consider kissing more intimate than sex or blow jobs. Irregardless of how various Western guys might feel about it, that's just how it is with some women in Asia, and they would be wise to know this cultural difference.

. 1st Date

Same here too. The key usually is to get to some variation of HUGGING, using this as a PHYSICAL LITMUS TEST, to then decide to "pull the trigger" and progress to kissing and/or moving to a place where sex is possible.

Now, with that typed, there are some guys that feel they can bypass the "hugging or kissing litmus test" and simply go for moving her more directly to a "place for sex". They will instead litmus test her by body language and verbal conversation, or even bypass that, and see using her agreeing to come to his place as the litmus test. She says "Yes", he's going for sex at his place. She says "No", then she isn't ready yet in his mind.

This variant tactic (extremely rapid Geographical Escalation) is something that I do NOT recommend. However, there are guys and PUAs that specialize in this approach.

It is more likely to work, if you are bringing her to your or her apartment/house, versus anywhere else. As it's your home or hers, she might be comfortable. However, this style can result in a MASSIVE amount of LMR (Last Minute Resistance). Where the woman panicks or starts acting crazy. Often because she is NOT used to being physical with the guy (as hugging and kissing phases bypassed before coming to his place).

2nd and 3rd Dates

All that above was to get you here. And why would a guy find himself here? Usually the guy failed to "pull the trigger" (hugging, kissing, or place for sex), the woman gave strong resistance (to any touching, kissing, or changing locations), or the guy completely didn't have a clue and was very confused.

. Transition From 1st to 2nd Date

The arguably CORRECT reason, in PUA and trying again on a 2nd date, is where the woman has SHOWED you AFFECTION but you couldn't move her to a place for sex (Geographical Escalation failure). The guy made it to the "hugging or kissing point" (she was good for some of that), but she gave the guy some excuse or reason why she couldn't go to some other place with him (or the guy chickened out).

There are legitimate reasons for this, like she is having her period, or you or her have a big presentation or meeting the next day. However, this would be POOR planning on the part of the guy to choose such a bad day, and indicative that the woman might be clueless. Be that as it may, if she hugged or kissed you, then there is hope. And DEFINITELY, a man should go for a 2nd date.

. Geographical Failure

Often the error the guy is making is not finding an INTERMEDIATE romantic place to hug and kiss her. Smart guys will find dimly lit, semi-private, or romantic locations. This requires the guy to PLAN. If not, then he will have to gamble more on pulling her to a hotel or his apartment. Possible, but often a bigger hurdle to jump, and where a higher percentage of women will panick or give LMR. So, if you want things to progress smoothly, after the brightly lit restaurant ( for example), find some dimly lit romantic places to take her to NEXT.

. When you arguably SHOULDN'T ask her on a 2nd Date

Don't ask her out again if she's a cold fish, unaffectionate, mean, or arrogant to you. Such women might be abusing you for attention, as her pet entertainment (personal clown), or she has NO natural physical attraction to you. If she keeps you around, it might be for nefarious purposes, your money, and/or you are a plan B or C of hers. Remember there are OTHER women in the world, don't allow yourself to be abused and toyed with by women.

Now sometimes, when a guy is clueless, it's his own fault. In other words he failed to TEST her and made ZERO attempts at hugging, kissing, or moving her someplace where sex can happen. Often this type of guy needs 3, 4... even 7 dates to work up the nerve. There are 2 problems with this. She can end up: 1) friend-zoning you OR 2) some other braver guy has sex with her 1st, and then she cuts the timid poor guy off or puts him into friend-zone deep freeze (usually never to come back out).

. Going For Sex On 2nd Dates

If she actually shows up for the next date, it means she has some interest in you. The KEY here is for the guy to PLAN (Where can you Physically Escalate at?) and "pull the trigger". Escalate/test her and see how far you can get.

. 3rd Dates

Something not good is likely to have happened on the other 2 dates. Poor location planning, middle of the work week, her being very resistant, guy being too timid, etc... I call this the LAST shot.

Here, a guy should think, TODAY or NEVER! Again, planning and "pulling the trigger" is essential. And on the 3rd date, don't be afraid to openly discuss that you want to start a sexual relationship with her. A guy might be surprised to find she will openly agree.

. If 3rd Date Fails

She is just not that into you or you don't have natural physical chemistry. A guy should strongly assess the situation, in terms of why there isn't any natural sexual chemistry between you. Now, if you both have taken an insane and archaic vow of chastity (as if condoms and birth control doesn't exist... 1815 instead of 2015) then fine, and good look with the blue balls. For everyone else, I recommend that it's time for you, the guy, to move on. Find a woman that is MORE affectionate towards you or that you are comfortable with. Don't be afraid to try again and go on dates with other women. More dates = more sex.

Happy Hunting

 

[silencio]

Like it. Hahah I am a guy of rapid geo escalation. I ususally invite Them somewhere near my house, they know that they will not make the last train and I only say: Dont worry about it.

Usually if she made the way out of Tokyo City 45 minutes From shinjuku, its a homerun. I only encountered last minute resistance with my first japanese date.

Of course I also had some where the chemistry wasnt right and she didn't want to go on a 2nd.

Never tried a love Hotel though. Never really tried but next time i might just take her by the Hand and lead her inside.

At least some touching on the way home or the arm around the girl while walking home/out of the Restaurant is required i feel. To gain comfort on both sides that is.

Also i can say that as so often repeated by you and other users, touching and sexual talk is a "must" to clarify that you want this girl sexually as a sexual male and not as a semi desperate guy with some pick up skills who is looking for a relationship.

And also, Dont tell about your far future plans and include her in them on the first two dates as that can make you appear needy.

I never got to the third date in Japan without sex except for once. A chubby Chick who had pimples on the second date which turned me off for some reason. Maybe i'll meet her again but with lots of booze.

Good morning

 

[Solong]

@silencio

I can totally understand not wanting to go for the lovel hotel, as they can be expensive in Japan.

Rapid Geographical Escalation can be like a sweet trap. She misses the last train, the guy has often won. In this style, the guy can enhance the trap with wine, food, and entertainment. Basically, she forgets the last train, until too late. And many Japanese women know what's going on, at least subconsciously, but need an excuse to let sex happen.

The reason I'm personally not so much for this style, though understand it and have used "missing the last train" as a tactic too once in a while, is it relies on trapping more than skill or rapport. Guys that do this style, often heavily rely on this trick. I advocate guys have equal skills in all 3 areas. Therefore, he becomes very adaptive, and when situationally aware, can turn many situations into his favor. Even those that other guys wouldn't think possible.

Many women are also aware of the "house trap" method, especially when it's so CLEAR very early that you will go to your place, so it's good to have a Plan B style. "I must go to work tomorrow/doing X in the morning. I can't stay out late/must catch the last train/ must leave by 10pm. I can't meet you there. Can't we meet in Tokyo/closer to...?" Then what?

By having skills in Verbal and Physical Escalation, a guy doesn't need to rely on only a specific type of trap. He can get the woman straight up. Afternoon date, no problem. A date far from your place, no problem. Basically any place the date happens, where he KNOWS the area, can be his honey trap. Stairway, rooftop, car parking lot, car, hotel, etc... And now you have a wider selection of places to take her. If she avoids the "house trap" or wants an early date, no problem. You are at a bar or disco away from your place, no problem.

The skills in Verbal Escalation, are also very important in gauging her sexual level. Something guys overlook this. Many women try to show the minimum sexually, fake being an almost-virgin. And in a "house trap", she might barely give it up, "Oh my, I'm not that type of girl. It's like the first time I ever did this. Even though I'm in your house or sitting on your bed, I didn't know sex might happen." Where if you can break her down verbally, you may indirectly expose that she has a high sexual level and capacity. That can mean bypassing the "almost-virgin fake acts" and doing more fun exciting things like her wearing sexy lingerie, orgies, anal, she's bi and will you can end up in a 3-way with 2 women, etc...

Even when using the "house trap" tactic, Verbal and Physical Escalation skills allow for a smoother transition to sex. Much less LMR and less next day runaways/1 night only drama.

 

[Solong]

@silencio

Wanted to add... If you take her near your place (like say a restaurant or dart bar), but progress through verbal and physical escalation for a couple of hours before taking her to your place, that is fine and shows good planning. Especially if you make it to the "Hugging Point", and it's clear that she is comfortable with you touching her and being physical.

Excessively rapid "Geographical Escalation" or the type of "house trapping" that I mean, is when guys take the date directly or almost directly (like stop at the store to buy beer and then immediately) to their house or say a friend's house (or worse straight to a hotel), and skip hugging and kissing before going there. Basically, the date IS AT his place (or worse- a pal's place or hotel). These are the most problematic and volatile type date situations that can end very badly if the guy misreads the woman, though can also go well too. It's my recommendation to read and litmus test a woman (her reaction to hugging), before "pulling the trigger" (kissing or place for sex). "Verbal Escalation" drops sexual hints, so her mind is more prepared for sex might happen or gets her horny thinking about it. This usually always means progression to sex is smooth or much smoother, and with the woman more clearly showing the man if she is or isn't ready.

 

[silencio]

@Solong
i have read it now once and hope that i,dont miss something out, eventhough it won't be that long.

I agree that bringing her directly to your house can be quite counterproductive, as it also puts a certain pressure on the woman.

when they come here,after some warmup time, they know in advance that they going to stay
though with the,"sweet honey pot" i handle it like: if she is coming to the house she is dtf. some might disagree here but that is my expirience and that of a few others. but only, like poonted out from you, if you "lube" it a little bit.
say at least first snl with a good amount of comfort.
That goes for the honeypot though, where we met outside. A friend of mine doesn't even do that and he drives good, but i have,to add that, i am of course aware which type of woman i can ask and which not.
cold reading is applied here. which is sometimes easier and sometimes it just didn't work out.

yes it is essential to build up in all the fields to have more options and to be the master of the situation.
be the master of your surroundings, if you bring her spontanously to a nice rooftop it can go of and if you didn't do wrong to much at least the kiss to soften her up should occur.

I gathered some expirience over the years but see every week that there is much to learn.
for me the karaoke booth was the best gateway before, when i tried a more innocent approach which, depending on the karaoke booth, worked out pretty well.
Your own house has a few good and bads though: some girls feel to cosy and dont want,to leave lol.
but at least you dont have,to drive home the next morning. and whats better to hop in your own shower after the bottle is popped. dont get me started on simple bootycalls but that is another story.

Waiting for the spring for some rooftop action agains i have just discovered one in roppongi.
if there are one or two LH in shinjuku and one in shibuya of your recommendation, i would,be pleased to check it out the next few days.

Wow went a bit of topic there.
wrote this post in 3 stages, so if there is confusion just tell.

 

[Solong]

I never got to the third date in Japan without sex except for once. A chubby Chick who had pimples on the second date which turned me off for some reason. Maybe i'll meet her again but with lots of booze.

This is an important point that shouldn't be overlooked and guys failing to progress to sex after multiple dates might want to have a greater understanding of what's up with most women.

As you mentioned, it has been my experience also (and my pals) that 90% plus of the time, sex happens by the 3rd date or within 2 weeks of meeting her. But this very common scenario, particularly in big cities and modern industrialized countries (yeah, think "Sex In The City"), is hidden or women spew a lot of double-talk.

What a lot of women say they do, and what they actually do, can be VERY different. Guys have to learn not to be tricked or confused by female double-talk and double-mindedness. Women can lie a lot to portray a fake image that they think society wants them to be.

It also goes back to that "Yes, Maybe, No" (there's a thread on it) again.

. If "Yes" you are her type and she is sexually turned on, sex can VERY much happen on the 1st or 2nd date. The trick is a lot of women will buy into or perpetuate the mythology like this is still 1815 or they are virgins until marriage. They might SAY differently, but behind closed doors and when she thinks nobody knows, her legs can be open and she is enjoying sex.

. If "No", you are almost never getting the vagina. You could meet her 100X, and it ain't happening. Guys need to wise up and realize when it's time to move on and not obsess over women who aren't returning their affection.

You can understand she is a "No" by LITMUS testing women. This is often were timid or confused guys are failing. They don't know if the woman truly likes them or not in a sexual way, because they never tested her to find out.

If you try to hold her hand and she pulls back from you like a hot stove, she is SHOWING sexual disinterest. If she is NOT showing you any affection and isn't returning any attempts at affection, this MEANS the physical and sexual chemistry isn't there.

And if a woman is a weird 30 year old virgin or extremely religious and anti-sex, they will tell you. Especially when asked or a sexual subject comes up (Verbal Escalation). Even in those cases, she can still be AFFECTIONATE, to show she likes you. She won't get pregnant or lose her virginity by holding your hand or by you putting your arm around her shoulder. Her being anti-affectionate and lacking reciprocity, means you (the guy) should leave. I suggest delete her contact and definitely never ask to go on a date with her again. Find another woman, who is affectionate.

. "Maybe" is the tricky part that gets guys confused, and years ago, me too.

In many of these cases, the woman is confused too. She isn't sure about you, and can be why the date count keeps stacking up. She can be oddly jumping back and forth between affection and pushing you away, or worse, friend-zoning you. Next thing you know, it's been 4 dates and sex still hasn't happened. Again, it's up to the MAN, to press the issue to a decision. Confused and childish women will toy with guys and have you walking in circles, if you are foolish enough to let them.

Guys should also understand that the rules of dating change after high school and college, or after 22 years old, and you are in the work force. You wouldn't usually be seeing Suzy everyday at school and have all year to break her down. And even if you work with her or she lives next door, be trifling, and that woman you like so much will end up having sex with some OTHER guy.

Litmus test her and get a decision. Let her know and be clear about it too, especially if the situation falls to a 3rd date. "You like me, then let's progress to an intimate relationship, otherwise I'm closing the door and moving on." Man up!

 

[Ladylisa]

Like it. Hahah I am a guy of rapid geo escalation. I ususally invite Them somewhere near my house, they know that they will not make the last train and I only say: Dont worry about it.

I was just reading through this thread and a thought came to me - you guys talk about the difference between western girls and Japanese girls, but actually the difference between Western guys and Japanese guys is also relevant.

I learn pretty quickly that you never accept any kind of invitation - no matter how innocent seeming - to go to a Japanese guys house unless you are interested in taking it further.

Basically if a girl agrees to go to a guys house alone she is seen be saying that she is DTF. I've refused invitations from friends because I realised what was implied.

I don't like that style - and I have been caught out without any warning - but that's what the assumptions are.

 

[User#6326]

how do you actually do the litmus test? from the sounds of it, just try to hold their hand? you mean just gauge how they react to light physical contact?

 

[MossBoss]

Basically if a girl agrees to go to a guys house alone she is seen be saying that she is DTF. I've refused invitations from friends because I realised what was implied.

Good system! Hopefully it will become more widespread out of Japan.

 

[Sinapse]

The only litmus test you need with J girls (if you're communicating in a masculine manner) is *is she still there with you*

If she isn't leaving, keep trying! Like LadyLisa said, in general going into a man's house = DTF, so if she runs off or refuses to come in, there you have your answer! In general I don't tell them we are going to my house (unless she asks persistently), but I also don't hide it. As we're walking after the first venue, if you've laid the ground work on the date, she should know what's up and be following you, often without any question as to where you're going. This is a good sign. Sometimes they'll refuse to come inside and stand outside your house but not leave. This means she still likes you but its too soon. Okay, lets have a conbini drink on the street then! Chat chat chat, dig a little deeper into her values, share some laughter, finish the conbini drink, try to go inside again, and escalate!

Occasionally you'll get a very strange/naive girl. I had one who came in a 30 minute taxi from a club AWAY from her friends in the club(and even with their knowledge), only to be shocked to arrive at my house and turn around and go back to the club. Apparently it was her first time at a club and she's not very experienced. But, this is the vast minority, and mostly you shouldn't worry about that. if she's still there, just escalate, it's not their first rodeo.

 

[Ladylisa]

Good system! Hopefully it will become more widespread out of Japan.

Yeah not really.
I think in the west we evolved out of the Victorian thinking that if a woman is alone with a man it's always about sex.

It might suck for picking up, but surely it's better that we think of each other as equal human beings as well as sex objects.

I remember when a Japanese "friend"asked me to go to his house during the daytime to make jam - I would have liked to, we'd hung out quite a bit, and I was attracted to him as well, and we had flirted and done a bit more ... BUT the circumstances we were in and the fact that we shared a social group made bonking each other a bad idea.
It was a pretty tough decision - but I knew by inviting me to his house he was saying - are we going to have sex or not?
I very nicely refused and he never spoke to me again... Which sucked

And actually maybe if I'd been able to go over to his house as friends, and we'd been able to be honest with each other things might have ended quite differently.

 

[Wwanderer]

Yeah not really.
I think in the west we evolved out of the Victorian thinking that if a woman is alone with a man it's always about sex.
...
surely it's better that we think of each other as equal human beings as well as sex objects.

Another post that calls out for a multiple like capability, or maybe we need a "like with extreme prejudice" button!

I mean, seriously, there really is A LOT more to starting and having relationships than the typical high school understanding of dating. To get stuck at that stage is to miss many of life's greatest joys and richest experiences...no matter how much you get laid.

-Ww

 

[john.smith]

It was a pretty tough decision - but I knew by inviting me to his house he was saying - are we going to have sex or not?
I very nicely refused and he never spoke to me again... Which sucked

Having been in this situation, but in the reverse (I got rejected), I would advise you, for next time, to say something like : "Well, not into it right now, maybe another day !" instead of "No thanks" (if you felt attracted, but did not wanted for current circumstances)
When it happened to me I got into a 3 months depression, and I refused to see the girl so humiliated and sad I felt and adding a freaking phobia of dating any women from then...When maybe it was not just the good circumstances and timing, but she still felt something. (looking back, I may have took it a little bit too personal )

 

[Ladylisa]

Another post that calls out for a multiple like capability, or maybe we need a "like with extreme prejudice" button!

I mean, seriously, there really is A LOT more to starting and having relationships than the typical high school understanding of dating. To get stuck at that stage is to miss many of life's greatest joys and richest experiences...no matter how much you get laid.

-Ww

Thank you

I am a happily sex positive woman, but I do it is possible to have relationships with the opposite sex that are not just about sex.

I often get sad when I hear things like "she put me in the friend zone" because I think "yeah .. She probably thought you were actually a friend, but you don't think that is worth anything unless she is prepared to fuck you"

I was really sad that I lost a friend - I know I could have been said to have been leading him on - but it wasn't to manipulate or because I wanted attention ... I really liked him and enjoyed his company (and I had to be sensible and listen to my head and not my pussy.

I had another situation at a different time with a guy who I really liked on a intellectual level. He was really smart and interesting and I really enjoyed our conversations and - but I just wasn't into him at all physically (though I did know he was into me).
Yes, he did end up in the friendzone, but that's because I hoped we could be friends - as two human beings.

 

[Ladylisa]

Having been in this situation, but in the reverse (I got rejected), I would advise you, for next time, to say something like : "Well, not into it right now, maybe another day !" instead of "No thanks" (if you felt attracted, but did not wanted for current circumstances)
When it happened to me I got into a 3 months depression, and I refused to see the girl so humiliated and sad I felt and adding a freaking phobia of dating any women from then...When maybe it was not just the good circumstances and timing, but she still felt something. (looking back, I may have took it a little bit too personal )

I did.

But because we were only supposedly talking about an innocent meeting I countered by saying that the timing wouldn't work out for me to come over, but how about we get together somewhere else (public) - so I guess it was obvious I was de-escalating.

I know that getting rejected sucks - hell I've been rejected - but rejecting someone as a sexual partner (for whatever reason) isn't rejecting them as a human being ... So it's really sad when they take it like that

 

[john.smith]

If you did not wanted to have sex at all, even in future, then you did right.
My case was a bit different, I was rejected as a romantic partner. (was asking her to go out together)
Well, I think the result was globally the same though : did not want to see her for embarrassment, and did not want to even hear about her.
It was not hatred, just pain to think or hear about her. After 1 year, we started again being friend, just give him time to swallow the pill. (I may have been particularly over sensitive about that, maybe he will get over it in less time)

 

[NormalGuy]

I have a fair bit of time for the PUA threads, and those that seem to be able to pull women left right and centre and have their wicked ways with them. I wish in some respects I could have half the success that they seem to have with women, but I also know that half of the PUA thinking is so far removed from the way that my mind works that I could never fully pull it off and stay happy with myself.

To see "friend zoning" as a failure, isn't in my nature. I enjoy having friends of both sexes, and the majority of my friends back in the UK were female, but they were females that I had no intentions of ever having a sexual relationship with. To put interactions with the opposite sex down to success or failure (did I fuck them or not) fails to acknowledge that we are all human beings that have different wants, interests and desires.

I understand the posters above, both of the males couldn't take rejection, and trust me it hurts like hell if you fall for someone and the feelings aren't mutual, but moving past that hurt feeling about your pride, and looking at the people as human beings (why did I like this person, was it only sexual, or do I like them as a person) should make you think twice before throwing a relationship in the trash because it doesn't turn sexual. @john.smith appears to have moved on in a good way, and it's good to hear that you are now becoming friends again.
It's difficult from both sides, once you've made your intentions clear then the guy (it's generally the male) has his pride take a blow and you have to live with knowing that she didn't like you in that way, "what's wrong with me", "what if she gets a boyfriend" etc. The woman, she has to think about "did he really just be my friend to get in my pants", "if I stay friends, is it leading him on", "what if I meet a guy I like, will it upset him" etc. Human emotions are hard to read and how we all react is different, but don't throw a good friendship away because it's not going to end up in bed, we can have lots of friends and what's in their heads / hearts, and not what's in their pants should be the deciding factor.

As I said at the start, some of the PUA threads are interesting, and the one that stated "Do I like this person" is one of the most obvious, but most forgotten things when on the search for the next notch.

 

[Wwanderer]

I am a happily sex positive woman, but I do it is possible to have relationships with the opposite sex that are not just about sex.

Fwiiw, I would go a bit further (I guess it is further) and claim that the view that relationships between men and women without sex are also without much value or importance also harms (reduces the quality of) those that DO include sex! That may seem counter intuitive, but imo and experience, folks that have the "it all about sex perspective" very often put too much of the burden of sustaining a deep and full relationship on the sexual aspect and not enough on its other components. This can lead to a variety of problems, including very commonly the one of getting through periods when the sex isn't working very well or isn't available for some practical reason (e.g., periods spent far apart, illnesses).

I don't think anyone who knows me well would consider me any less than sex-positive/sexually-focused (a sex fiend some might say), but that does not mean that I think it is the only important factor in a relationship; imo it isn't even the most important one. Just my opinion based on my experiences.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

I have a fair bit of time for the PUA threads, and those that seem to be able to pull women left right and centre and have their wicked ways with them. I wish in some respects I could have half the success that they seem to have with women, but I also know that half of the PUA thinking is so far removed from the way that my mind works that I could never fully pull it off and stay happy with myself.

To see "friend zoning" as a failure, isn't in my nature. I enjoy having friends of both sexes.

Interesting... you seem to think PUA beliefs are going to cause you to become a monster? Hehe. Redpill return of kings type misogyny maybe, but done correctly I think it's just about becoming a man in your own and taking action. I think anybody can do it, although some have longer paths than others. If you're undersocialized / highly introverted you're going to have a longer road. If you've always had a mixed social circle and always had friends and girlfriends you have a much shorter path.

I think actually the guys who are more likely to get butt hurt are the guys who arent getting laid that much.

RE: the general female friends conversation, if you can't keep or don't have female friends you're probably really weird. Sorry..

 

[NormalGuy]

I don't think PUA beliefs turn you into a monster, in fact I even semi quoted you as it was you that stated that actually liking a girl is the most important thing.

I think, I can see both sides of these discussions, whilst I think my beliefs align more with WW and I would enjoy having a drink with Ww more than with a PUA, I think I'd also admire you and Solong's confidence and ability to just walk up and practice your craft with total strangers.

Maybe the "typical" well known PUA haven't done themselves any favours, and you do certainly seem to be different, but if a PUA is all about the amount of women you bed (if you go past 3rd date it's a failure) then as I said, I think my beliefs are slightly different.

 

[User#6326]

The only litmus test you need with J girls (if you're communicating in a masculine manner) is *is she still there with you*

If she isn't leaving, keep trying! Like LadyLisa said, in general going into a man's house = DTF, so if she runs off or refuses to come in, there you have your answer! In general I don't tell them we are going to my house (unless she asks persistently), but I also don't hide it. As we're walking after the first venue, if you've laid the ground work on the date, she should know what's up and be following you, often without any question as to where you're going. This is a good sign. Sometimes they'll refuse to come inside and stand outside your house but not leave. This means she still likes you but its too soon. Okay, lets have a conbini drink on the street then! Chat chat chat, dig a little deeper into her values, share some laughter, finish the conbini drink, try to go inside again, and escalate!

Occasionally you'll get a very strange/naive girl. I had one who came in a 30 minute taxi from a club AWAY from her friends in the club(and even with their knowledge), only to be shocked to arrive at my house and turn around and go back to the club. Apparently it was her first time at a club and she's not very experienced. But, this is the vast minority, and mostly you shouldn't worry about that. if she's still there, just escalate, it's not their first rodeo.

thanks, makes sense

 

[Ladylisa]

I've been thinking about this thread.

As a woman it's pretty easy to get sex - what is not so easy to get is *good* sex.

I'm pretty sex positive and don't need to think I'm in love to enjoy sex (and have had my share of one night stands, swinging etc) , but I've learnt that it tends to be better *for me* when I'm with someone who I like and who likes me and we can take a bit of time to have some mental foreplay to build the anticipation, and to be comfortable with each other.

It's not so much about when I think I *should* have sex, as much as when I *want* to have sex... and have it be GOOD sex.

The best first (and second) dates I've had are when nothing physical happens but the sexual tension is so strong that it's almost tangible and I'm so overcome with lust that I can hardly breathe (even if I don't show it)... And I know that he is so turned on that he can't think of anything but me.

And then if the mental foreplay keeps building then I know there's a good chance that we will have a really good time together when we do have sex.

 

[User#6326]

For many men out there, I expect, if there is little chemistry..never mind good sex, its hard to have sex at all!

The saying "men are like dogs" is just not true.. There is lots of psychology involved.. I wonder how many of synapse's "SNL's" were good sex.. I guess he does filter them out when doing the nanpa thing

 

[Wwanderer]

As a woman it's pretty easy to get sex - what is not so easy to get is *good* sex.

I think a lot of young men have so much difficulty getting enough sex to satisfy their appetite/libido that they get permanently focused on quantity and tend to underestimate or under appreciate quality. You can see this attitude in many TAG threads, especially those about PUA/nampa, where there is constant discussion of how many times a guy has sex and with how many different partners, talks of percentage of "scores" and so forth. That whole attitude is somewhat antithetical to quality, imo.

Perhaps I am odd, but when I think back over my own sexual history/life, it is nearly always the best and most intense experieinces that come to mind, not statistics on how much sex I had or with how many different people. I don't even know how many it has been with any accuracy at all, as discussed in some fairly recent thread.

-Ww

 

[john.smith]

Not different from drinking wine. The young is ready to drink lots of shitty wine to get completely out control. The old guy prefers to savor a great glass of french wine.

However, @Wwanderer I would say that like with wine, amateurs can't really appreciate the full aroma of a 20000 Yen bottle and are satisfied even with a shitty "Beaujolais nouveau".
Sophistication takes time.