The Game

[User#6246]

Hi everyone,

I'm G. I'm new here. I've been staying in Japan for a couple of months now. I recently read The Game the famous book about PUA. It's a fascinating culture. It was a fun read.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? How do you rate the book? Tried stuff out from it?

 

[savasmiruku]

Hi everyone,

I'm G. I'm new here. I've been staying in Japan for a couple of months now. I recently read The Game the famous book about PUA. It's a fascinating culture. It was a fun read.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? How do you rate the book? Tried stuff out from it?

Hi turnonthgrind,
imho its applicability to Japanese girls is limited. For trying stuff from it , a lot of "customization/adaptation" is necessary. I am assuming you speak only English and have no Japanese skills. I would suggest skip that book and read the posts of contributors such as Solong, Ww, Sinapse for a better understanding of Japanese woman.

 

[Sinapse]

The game is a fun little anthropological book, and it certainly started something of an international movement - for better or for worse - but yeah, @savasmiruku is right, it's not that applicable to Japan.

A sneak preview of my book deals with that exact topic:

"The second wave of Japan gamers downplayed the importance of language, culture and differing gender norms, and for a while Mystery Method-derived terminology was everywhere. Simple country girls from Hokkaido were being hit with complicated “negging” routines originally intended for jaded Hollywood cocktail waitresses, while legions of English teachers and foreign businessmen competed to “AMOG” each other in clubs and bars, to the bemusement of the Japanese locals around them. As with the Charisma Men, people were still getting laid and finding girlfriends, but it was often in spite of their methods."

 

[Wwanderer]

read the posts of contributors such as Solong, Ww, Sinapse for a better understanding of Japanese woman.

Hey, no need to insult me!! A man is known by the company he keeps!

-Ww

 

[User#16452]

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[Solong]

Negging shouldn't be used for anyone, not just Hokkaido women. Repeatedly insulting someone down is not the way to have a happy connection.

The Game and PUA is way more than simply about negging women. That's 1 tactic, in a long list of many. Even if used, has various degrees and subtle forms. And even various PUAs don't use it at all.

"Negging" was something the media (sensationalist journalism) and various feminist groups took out of context to attack PUAs with. Often making it look as if that's primarily what they do.

 

[User#16452]

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[Sinapse]

Negging shouldn't be used for anyone, not just Hokkaido women. Repeatedly insulting someone down is not the way to have a happy connection.

If it's an insult, it's not negging done correctly. Being insulting is stupid and counterproductive to your goals.. Seems that this popular myth of "negging = insulting" didn't ever really get fixed and a lot of people are confused about it even to this day.. But I'm not really here to defend that practice.

Besides, if it wasn't brutally effective, nobody would be doing it. If women respond to it, seems like you should maybe be going out and calling a women's conference and tell everyone to stop going home with douchebags, but such is how dating and sex go for most young people. Don't hate the player for being good at the game..

In other words, morality aside, it wets panties, when done correctly. And done correctly is NOT insults. Criticism should be leveled at women for getting turned on at negative expressions rather than men for using them - or better yet, at nobody, and let people hook up with who they want and use whatever means they like as long as they aren't hurting anybody

 

[User#16452]

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[DJV]

The game is a fun little anthropological book, and it certainly started something of an international movement - for better or for worse - but yeah, @savasmiruku is right, it's not that applicable to Japan.

A sneak preview of my book deals with that exact topic:

"The second wave of Japan gamers downplayed the importance of language, culture and differing gender norms, and for a while Mystery Method-derived terminology was everywhere. Simple country girls from Hokkaido were being hit with complicated “negging” routines originally intended for jaded Hollywood cocktail waitresses, while legions of English teachers and foreign businessmen competed to “AMOG” each other in clubs and bars, to the bemusement of the Japanese locals around them. As with the Charisma Men, people were still getting laid and finding girlfriends, but it was often in spite of their methods."

Just for the sake of the international market of your coming book, this way of writing is beyhond ringing any bell for the non-native english reader that I am.
Even the rhytmic elements fail to catch my attention and swing.
You might use more 3rd party opinions before its release.

 

[Solong]

Wow, that's quite a statement to make. For a guy who seems to spend a lot of his spare time talking to women, you really do seem to think very poorly of them. Did a woman screw you over recently or something??

So negging is not insulting, but it is still negative statements? That's hardly compliments, but still more akin to bullying. From what I understand, "good" negging is supposed to be more like teasing than insulting, but to what purpose? It is still supposed to make a woman feel less confident in herself so she will lower her standards, though without seeming so much like a jerk.

Negging and a lot of other PUA "tricks" are about manipulating someone psychologically. Are you really going to say that if you are manipulated into something, it is your own fault and not the manipulator's? Or even criticise them for having been manipulated? Really?

The thing to realise that while you may champion PUA as a great solution for men with little confidence and that it hurts nobody, a lot of it preys on women with little confidence who don't know how they deserve to be treated. A lot of women (and no doubt more so in Japan) are conditioned not to make a scene, not to say "no" loudly or forcibly, and in some cases even that men always know "best". While she might not directly say something, no one likes being talked down to or being touched too quickly. Why else do think LMR is a thing?

I'm sure there are women out there who are looking for a one night stand/boyfriend/whatever, but if they are, why do you need to use routines and be manipulative? If you have to use negging, escalation, time tricks, etc, to get someone into bed, then clearly it's not something they really want. For me, nothing is sexier than knowing that your partner really wants to be with you. No wonder some PUAs feel the need to record the audio of encounters as proof of consent.

My previous post, seemed to preemptive predict and respond to this. Interesting.

I think it's best to be clear on what negging is and what it is not.

1) Women also naturally use forms of negs (teasing, snubs, and sarcasm) and emotional manipulation, arguably more than men, but let's say equally so.

They know that male sex drive can be used against them for favors, special treatment, and money. So I always find it odd or suspicious, when women accuse men.

Negging in the way it's described by many critics or feminist groups against PUAs, is something many women exactly do to men. That is snub and sarcastically insult or play those men that they consider inferior to themselves or to their ideal man.
The way trained PUAs use negging, is much different than what they are often accused of. It's instead to show an arrogant woman that he's on her same level. It's a kind of code and game of sarcasm and teasing, certain types of women like to play.

In fact, certain women were arguably upset when discovering what negging was, because it was like a particular code they use was broken. Or that men have any tools to counter or equal the games women play.

http://therulesbook.com/
(Demonstrates female games and manipulation of males)

2) Negging is NOT to be used on women with apparent low self-esteem or lower on the "universal scale of attractiveness".

You don't neg a 6 or 7, only women with apparently LARGE egos or are clearly arrogant, and are very hot. Like 9s or 10s.

3) Negging is not used on already friendly women or in smoothly proceeding interactions.

A neg isn't done without reason or unnecessarily. It's done when talking with a woman of a certain type of attitude, who appears to be INTO such verbal games.

Women into such verbal teasing, sarcasm, and playful or thoughtful snubs can be throwing them out there too. She, often using them for filtering out men or to filter for a particular type of man. It's a type of game. Consequently, it's almost an art form unto itself, because you have to know how to play it well for it to work.

LMR and the question of consent is totally different and way off from negging. LMR and consent are also very different. Confusion between them, is to not know what LMR is or negging. And the issue of consent, can have ZERO to do with PUA in any way. That's also creeping close to the craziness of "all sex is rape", "all men are rapists", etc..

 

[User#16452]

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[Solong]

Maybe because you jump to conclusions about what women think and will try to fit whatever I say to the narrative in your head about feminists, regardless of what I actually write. I still didn't say what you wrote in your original post.



I like how you always explicitly lay out in detail to me, a woman, what women supposedly do. Well, I don't do this, nor have I see anyone do this. I'd also never heard of the female rule book that you like to mention. Honestly, it sounds like to read a lot of PUA and then go purposely looking for it in real life.

But, aside from her being hot, why would you want to spend time around someone who is clearly arrogant?!

You might want to put the ego in check for a second. I was mainly not talking about you specifically nor generalizing about what every woman does, but typing about the concept and definition of negging.

You as a woman, can't say you know what all other women do or how men perceive the actions of women. In the end, each of us are giving an opinion.

As for talking to arrogant women, I actually agree. But certain men feel they are up to the task or want to "conquer" such women. In the reverse, such women can think the same way, wanting to conquer an egotistical high status man. Negging is a tool. A tool certain men can choose to use or not to use.

 

[User#16452]

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[Sinapse]

For a guy who seems to spend a lot of his spare time talking to women, you really do seem to think very poorly of them.

What that I said made you think I think poorly of women? Do you disagree that women choose to go home with douchebags and not "nice guys"? This wasn't a moral judgment - actually I'm pretty clear on why this happens and I don't think badly at all for women choosing to do this.. but let's call a spade a spade.

Negging and a lot of other PUA "tricks" are about manipulating someone psychologically.

I'm not sure you are aware of the average experience of men trying to meet women. They give ENDLESS amounts of shit to EVERY guy who talks to them. They point out every single weakness. Again, this isn't a moral judgment, just truth.
Why is it that men have to be all lovely flowers and roses / nice guy buying drinks / emotional tampon all the time when women are out there throwing most guys under the bus? Women will make a guy wait AGES thinking he's going to get laid, or make him pick her up in random places, buy her drinks, buy her other things, take her shopping, etc etc etc and this is all under the tacit assumption that if he does this enough she will put out. I have friends who are girls who have little competitions with their friends about who can get guys to do the most favors and buy them the most stuff for them without putting out. These are otherwise nice, sweet, well-educated girls and I dont really think poorly of them, but this is the game they were born into. Of course, you can't "buy" a woman like this, and she knows this and he knows this, but the assumption goes on for as long as the girl can milk it. If you deny that women do this consciously and actively, I don't even really know what world you are living in. Women will make guys their bitch and ride them like a dog for as long as the gravy train is flowing, then at the last minute say "No I'm not that kind of girl" or "You can't expect sex for that" ... well, no of course, but this is a dance of assumptions that the entire society places weight on and reinforces with narratives in media. And when a guy refuses to give give give everything just for a SHOT (which never existed.. nor should it have under those terms) suddenly he's being manipulative? No, more like he's meeting her on her level as a man to a woman. And you can bet she will start to view him with respect the second he doesn't collapse into her frame of making guys buy / pay / dote on her.

The world is negative (and positive, and everything else). If a man expresses something negatively, somehow he is "manipulating" a woman? Think this through here. Women will fling ALL kinds of shit at men. If you think this is something that only I experience, or Solong, or anyone else, let's strap a camera to any random dude (you can pick) and we'll send him in to talk to girls - no "negging" or "tricks" required - and you'll see just how nasty women can be to men.

The basic theory behind a "neg" is to tease women in the same way you would tease a good friend, family member, buddy, etc. This comes from the giant myth that women who are genetically gifted, skinny, and attractive should have men throwing roses at their feet and doting on their every need. This is frankly absurd and dishonest and not in anybody's best interests. Again, think this through. Women should be treated equally. No more, no less. Go into a nightclub and you will quickly notice that for an attractive women she is treated far more than equal to everyone else. In some sense, she is the currency of the night. This is not something I decide, nor do I wish it to be this way. Rather, it is the way that shared reality is constructed.

it preys on women with little confidence

It's not meant for women with little confidence. It's meant for women with a bloated sense of entitlement, not to "knock them down" but to make everyone start out seeing each other as human equals. While I wish everyone could do this from the beginning.. this isn't the reality of the situation in night life (or even most life in general)

Why else do think LMR is a thing?

Society thinks women who have sex soon are sluts. Women don't want to be seen as sluts. Don't blame the guy or the girl (who both want to have the sex), blame the society.

If you have to use negging, escalation, time tricks, etc, to get someone into bed,

"Negging" = talking to someone as you talk to a friend
"Escalation" = actually making a move (which is necessary no matter if you are a "PUA" or not)
"Time tricks" .... not even sure what you mean here.

So yeah, if you think that talking to someone as you talk to a friend instead of as you would talk to a plastic mannequin, and actually going for a kiss is "manipulation" then yes, I do think you have to do that. Really doesn't seem like manipulation to me though.

 

[User#16452]

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[valtiel]

Simple country girls from Hokkaido

Ugh, simple they say. Where does this statement puts me, I wonder...

 

[Sinapse]

Urm, I'm not sure what to say to this. Thank you for telling me what women think and do? I subject I knew nothing about before...

Honestly, I get that you're trying to sell a PUA guide here, but do step out of the echo chamber from time to time.

I'm telling you the treatment men get from women. Why don't you tell me how you see it. Do you think women are lovely and friendly to every man and men are horrible manipulative guys?


Also, echo chamber usually means people who completely agree with you. I would call this site far from that ^^

 

[User#16452]

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[RandomTokyoGuy]

Ugh, simple they say. Where does this statement puts me, I wonder...

One could argue that Sapporo isn't exactly countryside, but then again people from Tokyo tend to call anything else 田舎

 

[Solong]

Urm, I'm not sure what to say to this. Thank you for telling me what women think and do? I subject I knew nothing about before...

Honestly, I get that you're trying to sell a PUA guide here, but do step out of the echo chamber from time to time.

Wait, what... Talk about selling? And it's easy to say you are in a very big echo chamber of your own, especially at this site. That's like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Sinapse]

Some people are nice, some are not. Avoid the ones who are not and be nice to the ones who are.

I agree totally. And for people who are straightforward and honest, it's great to drop those games and just enjoy each other's company.

But some women are such high targets of male attention that they have strict tastes, very low patience for error, and are used to blowing off the hordes dudes who come to talk to them for all sorts of reasons. The most beautiful rose needs longer thorns than the rest. Again, I don't see this as bad, its... necessary, even! This is particularly true in night clubs and environments where girls are used to meeting tons of guys. Compare this to how she feels on her birthday. With a lover? Girlfriends?

Most girls who are "bitchy" from the beginning are just doing it because they don't know you yet, and they can't realistically let every single man who talks to them into their life as much as those guys want to be a part of it. The same girl who is a bitch in a night club is likely totally personable and happy around her friends. So it's not that they are just bad people we should ignore or stay away from.

One girl who ended up turning into my girlfriend about four years ago - this tiny Taiwanese girl who was over here modeling and doing illustrations - I walked up to her and said something totally normal like "Hi how are you guys" (in Japanese) with a smile .. no touching or anything offensive or rude, and she turned around (in perfect English) said "You sound fucking stupid when you speak Japanese" and walked away.

I ran into her again later in the night, and she stayed maybe thirty seconds before rolling her eyes at her friend and moving on. And then again, and she listened for while, and so on. Finally it came out that I'm a writer, and she just opens right up and we had an amazing conversation. I ended up dating her and she even lived with me for a month as she needed somewhere to get away from her abusive ex (long story..). She was sweet, sociable, and an amazing girl but you never would have known from the way she responded to my totally normal approach. I don't think girls like these - the vast majority of the hottest girls in clubs - are bitches by default, or all the time. Most of them are quite cool if you get to know them. They just have higher guards up.

Sometimes you meet girls who don't put on a bitchy front at all and are totally hot but just cool to hang out and be normal, and that's even better! Usually when introduced through a mutual acquaintance as well it's much more common for chicks to drop the front.

I was talking about the world of PUA. A lot of it is misinformed guys informing other misinformed guys.

I agree with you again that there's a lot of misconceptions going around. "Negging = insulting the girl" is one thing I hope nobody is out there teaching.

As for misinformed.. well a PUA worth listening to is actually speaking from his experience.

 

[User#16452]

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[DJV]

Some people are nice, some are not. Avoid the ones who are not and be nice to the ones who are.

Please define "nice"

 

[Solong]

I'm not trying to sell a guide about anything. Yes, I am an escort if that is what you meant.

Also, did you know that an echo chamber usually means people who completely agree with you?

There are many different ways to sell [emoji8] .

And you do know that guys here are mostly mongers and that many would agree with simply because you are an escort or a woman (and pretty)?