Video: How To Tell If A Japanese Girl Likes You

[Des Esseintes]

Precisely so, in my experience, and the technique is by no means restricted to the context of dating and seduction.

That said, discussions such as this one always seem to me to miss most of the point of dating and interactions with the opposite sex (or probably with the same sex for gays...but I have no experience there). All this concentration on rules, guidelines, tricks, techniques, percentages, reaching some predetermined goal (sex), of succeeding or failing etc drain most of the spontaneous fun and joy out of relationships imo. We are talking about a fundamental part of life and our most profound social relationships , now some sporting event fer christ's sake!

-Ww

I agree and that's why I find the very concept of dating distasteful, precisely because the goals are so predetermined. Since pictures on dating apps are often so deceiving, I think that if I ever agree to meet someone from the internet again it will be from a conversation exchange website. No particular expectations there apart from acting nice and being reasonably interesting and helpful (I think I can more or less manage that).

 

[Solong]

I also wanted to add that being a good conversationalist (in the "right" way) works in the reverse too. It's good for not only just figuring out if a woman is up for sex, but ALSO those women that are NOT up for sex that day, have sexual problems you don't want to deal with, and to include mental issues.

There's been many occasions where I figured out from talking to a woman to break off the date and stop talking to her period. I cut her off. She gave the wrong answers, hints, and body language. This was very helpful, for ending it right there, instead of wasting hours, days, or even weeks. It's not something so easy for most men to figure out, as many women can be hiding their negativity or anti-sex mind and faking. But after a lot of experience trying to, it's possible for a man to get a good grasp of what's up with many women.

 

[John Chavers]

As I expected, she has a below average look

Only a nitpick, but if you lead with this, isn't she seducing you? Not that I'm downplaying the results...

 

[just4fun]

I know some on okstupid that are that way.....shall we trade info anyone?

 

[Solong]

Precisely so, in my experience, and the technique is by no means restricted to the context of dating and seduction.

That said, discussions such as this one always seem to me to miss most of the point of dating and interactions with the opposite sex (or probably with the same sex for gays...but I have no experience there). All this concentration on rules, guidelines, tricks, techniques, percentages, reaching some predetermined goal (sex), of succeeding or failing etc drain most of the spontaneous fun and joy out of relationships imo. We are talking about a fundamental part of life and our most profound social relationships , now some sporting event fer christ's sake!

-Ww

Where I'm in disagreement with you on this, is by not having a goal or direction, the interaction with new women you are meeting will often detoriate into aimless confusion, wasted opportunities, and wasted money or time.

Men will often lose out the most in those scenarios, because women will have more options. She can usually afford for it to go nowhere (particularly if young and pretty), because there can be 3 to 5 other orbiters (desperate guys/SIMPs) floating around in her phone contacts, school, job, or who she will randomly meet.

And because a man has focus, doesn't in anyway mean he isn't having fun. Because we keep score in a Basketball game, doesn't mean we are not fully enjoying it.

 

[majimekun]

....All this concentration on rules, guidelines, tricks, techniques, percentages, reaching some predetermined goal (sex), of succeeding or failing etc drain most of the spontaneous fun and joy out of relationships imo. We are talking about a fundamental part of life and our most profound social relationships , now some sporting event fer christ's sake!
-Ww

Well, I'll be honest with you, the way I'm doing this isn't based on rules, guidelines, tricks someone taught me etc.
This is the way I interact with people instinctively.
When I suddenly decide that I want to kill a few hours kissing a total stranger, I drive the discussion in order to make it happen but it's really an habit for me. I don't have a checklist in my mind or something like that.
I enjoyed the discussion, she enjoyed it too (otherwise she wouldn't let the kissing continue for so long).
Maybe I like to play a little bit with people, maybe I'm a little bit of a manipulator, but in the end that's the way I like doing it.
I love adding some spice into any conversation, that's the way I am.
Sometimes it's sexual, sometimes it's not.
But still, making people laugh or get genuinely surprized by what you say to them is a real pleasure.

 

[majimekun]

I agree and that's why I find the very concept of dating distasteful, precisely because the goals are so predetermined.

Maybe for you but not for me.
When I go to a first date I have 3 possibilities :
1. having a worthy conversation with a total stranger even if it goes nowhere (I might learn some new things in the process ... so, win-win).
2. making a friend (which might become a sexfriend in the future ... who knows)
3. finding a sexual partner/lover

So, in the end, I rarely think that I've wasted my time.
Your problem comes from your own expectations.

Since pictures on dating apps are often so deceiving,

A profile with a single picture can be deceiving.
One with about three different pictures = barely no chance of being deceived.

Slamming the dating sites when it's you who don't do things properly .... that's not very fair in my opinion.

 

[Wwanderer]

Where I'm in disagreement with you on this, is by not having a goal or direction, the interaction with new women you are meeting will often detoriate into aimless confusion, wasted opportunities, and wasted money or time.

Men will often lose out the most in those scenarios, because women will have more options. She can usually afford for it to go nowhere (particularly if young and pretty), because there can be 3 to 5 other orbiters (desperate guys/SIMPs) floating around in her phone contacts, school, job, or who she will randomly meet.

And because a man has focus, doesn't in anyway mean he isn't having fun. Because we keep score in a Basketball game, doesn't mean we are not fully enjoying it.

Without saying that it is a bad approach (though it is definitely not for me), let me just point out that your whole thinking and conceptualization of interactions with women is dominated by the goal-oriented perspective. Just talking about things like "wasted" opportunities/money/time or "lose out the most" or women having "more options", to say nothing of all the stuff (e.g., success percentages) in other posts by you and @majimekun and others above (and in other threads) reveals how much your relationships with women are being influenced (and imo restricted).

I doubt you look at interactions with new guys you are meeting in such a constrained way, and I'd bet that you would have a much harder time describing the techniques you use to interact with other men or categorizing them as successful, as home runs or strike outs or whatever. And I suspect you have a much richer and more diverse set of relationships and interactions with males...simply because you are (probably) not imposing such a strong set of preconceived notions or constraints on them.

Basically what I want to point out is that there are other good ways, better in my personal opinion and (50 or so years of adult) experience...very successful experience imo, to handle ones interactions with women. This other way opens up whole new worlds of possibilities by dropping the strong focus on "scoring", on "techniques", on conscious manipulation etc. Maybe better (it is imo) but maybe not, or not for all, but anyway there are alternatives that have very happy consequences.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Without saying that it is a bad approach (though it is definitely not for me), let me just point out that your whole thinking and conceptualization of interactions with women is dominated by the goal-oriented perspective. Just talking about things like "wasted" opportunities/money/time or "lose out the most" or women having "more options", to say nothing of all the stuff (e.g., success percentages) in other posts by you and @majimekun and others above (and in other threads) reveals how much your relationships with women are being influenced (and imo restricted).

I doubt you look at interactions with new guys you are meeting in such a constrained way, and I'd bet that you would have a much harder time describing the techniques you use to interact with other men or categorizing them as successful, as home runs or strike outs or whatever. And I suspect you have a much richer and more diverse set of relationships and interactions with males...simply because you are (probably) not imposing such a strong set of preconceived notions or constraints on them.

Basically what I want to point out is that there are other good ways, better in my personal opinion and (50 or so years of adult) experience...very successful experience imo, to handle ones interactions with women. This other way opens up whole new worlds of possibilities by dropping the strong focus on "scoring", on "techniques", on conscious manipulation etc. Maybe better (it is imo) but maybe not, or not for all, but anyway there are alternatives that have very happy consequences.

-Ww

You are mistaken, as myself and many other men use competitive and goal-oriented language and thinking all the time.

1) Sports

We could be playing darts, bowling, arm wrestling, etc... It can be which team or fighter we are betting on or rooting for.

2) No Tolerance For Bullshit

Many guys don't like other dudes lying, bullshitting, conning, being arrogant towards them, etc...

It is no different with women. The purpose of my life isn't to have a woman waste my time, waste my money, manipulate, con, or lie to me. And much of that is true with guys we associate with.

3) Business

Many of us would like to go into the office and tell our bosses to stop with the goals, focus, keeping score, success talk, etc... But it won't happen, because it's just plain reality this is a part of life. Not just business, but life in general.

4) Technique, Skill, & Knowledge

If you are going to do something, many of us rather do it right or even try to be the best that we can be.

Like sex. Would a guy rather have a woman lay there like dead wood and say, "Don't ask anything of me!", or a woman that does her best? And it works in the reverse too, where many a woman appreciate a man doing his best in general and doing his best for her, which often means developing skill and technique.

And not just sex, but cooking, sports, fashion, language study, computers, etc... Not everybody wants to walk through life aimlessly devoid of any skill.

 

[Wwanderer]

You are mistaken, as myself and many other men use competitive and goal-oriented language and thinking all the time.

A misunderstanding, perhaps due to my poor articulation of my point. I am not saying that men/people don't use competitive and goal-oriented language and concepts in other contexts. As you point out they are very very common in a variety of contexts. I also don't think that there is anything wrong with such perspectives in general; in fact, they are perfect in many activities (such as sports, business etc as you list and others...warfare is another example).

I am just saying that there are other possible approaches to fundamental human relationships, and in my opinion and experience, some of them are better (in at least some important ways) than the competitive/goal-oriented one.

For example, do you look at every human relationship in a competitive/goal-oriented framework? How about family ones? Is that how you conceptualize your relationship with your parents, siblings, children (if any)? If not, you might want to consider whether or not it is the best way to approach relationships with potential mates...

If you will forgive me for trying to gently rattle your chain, consider this metaphor: Numbered lists of key points are a useful written format for many purposes, but they are not the only possible format nor always the ideal choice. ;-)

-Ww

 

[Solong]

A misunderstanding, perhaps due to my poor articulation of my point. I am not saying that men/people don't use competitive and goal-oriented language and concepts in other contexts. As you point out they are very very common in a variety of contexts. I also don't think that there is anything wrong with such perspectives in general; in fact, they are perfect in many activities (such as sports, business etc as you list and others...warfare is another example).

I am just saying that there are other possible approaches to fundamental human relationships, and in my opinion and experience, some of them are better (in at least some important ways) than the competitive/goal-oriented one.

For example, do you look at every human relationship in a competitive/goal-oriented framework? How about family ones? Is that how you conceptualize your relationship with your parents, siblings, children (if any)? If not, you might want to consider whether or not it is the best way to approach relationships with potential mates...

If you will forgive me for trying to gently rattle your chain, consider this metaphor: Numbered lists of key points are a useful written format for many purposes, but they are not the only possible format nor always the ideal choice. ;-)

-Ww

I agree that a man can take many different approaches, but he will often have to choose: which is effective, what is getting him desired results, and/or is satisfying.

You are born into a family, so wasn't afforded the opportunity to choose. We should be very clear about this point. You can't truly disown your mother or say brothers, because they are genetically linked to you and often you grew up in that household. Therefore using family skews the discussion.

In relationships with people outside our family, we often have more CHOICE. We therefore often do have a criteria, reasons, and preferences for why we associate with others.

A woman may decide not to associate or continue talking to a man because she feels he's a scrub, poor, dirty, ugly, etc... This isn't just a woman's choice, MEN can choose too. If a man does the reverse, that's also his prerogative.

I will never say the only criteria is sex or money, but let's not lie or delude ourselves either, as if neither are important. Is that woman only your drinking buddy or you play Basketball against her?

All people don't make aimless associations with others, and often they are getting something out of the connection and relationship. There is nothing wrong with a person being clear and focused about what they want, and with whom they want to associate with.

 

[Des Esseintes]

A profile with a single picture can be deceiving.
One with about three different pictures = barely no chance of being deceived.

Slamming the dating sites when it's you who don't do things properly .... that's not very fair in my opinion.

I used the pronoun "I" didn't I? So I'm not really "slamming" the dating sites just saying it's not for me. Last two girls I met before closing my accounts had tons of pictures, only problem these pictures were ten years out of date and instead of being in their early thirties as their profiles said, they were well into their forties. No parade against that.

 

[Wwanderer]

You are born into a family, so wasn't afforded the opportunity to choose. We should be very clear about this point. You can't truly disown your mother or say brothers, because they are genetically linked to you and often you grew up in that household. Therefore using family skews the discussion.

In relationships with people outside our family, we often have more CHOICE. We therefore often do have a criteria, reasons, and preferences for why we associate with others.

I disagree for two reasons and think that family is a very relevant/appropriate comparison/parallel (note use of numbered list here):

1 - While we of course cannot choose who our mother or brothers etc are, adults definitely can and routinely do choose how closely connected they stay to their birth family members. It is well within the range of common family situations for adults to see and communicate with some of their birth-family members only superficially and fairly rarely (maybe once per year at the holidays plus an occasional phone call) while other people see their birth-family members on close to a daily basis and have very close and emotionally intimate connections to them. In other words, there remain plenty of choices to be made about how much to associate with one's birth-family relatives.

2 - Even more importantly, one of the most common and conventional outcomes of dating activities is the formation of a new family, i.e., finding a long-term or life-long mate with whom to have/make a new family (with or without children). Thus, it is particularly sensible to look at potential dating type relationships in at least somewhat the same way one looks at family relationships.

I will never say the only criteria is sex or money, but let's not lie or delude ourselves either, as if neither are important. Is that woman only your drinking buddy or you play Basketball against her?

If you are saying that for you any worthwhile and satisfying relationship with a woman must involve sex or money as important elements (that anything else would be a "waste"), then (another numbered list!): 1 - You have illustrated my point that your "competitive and goal-oriented language and concepts" are profoundly limiting your social relationships with women, and 2 - you have convinced me that you might be better off sticking with your methods (not that you have any need to convince me)!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

A couple of additional points I wanted to make on this topic:

1 - The most common female equivalent of the "competitive and goal-oriented language and concepts" focus on sex that males often have (in the context of dating) is an equally single-minded preconceived concentration on finding a long-term mate to marry, to support her, to father and help her raise her children etc...on finding "the one" for her. Pretty much every guy here with any significant dating experience will have encountered this type I am pretty sure. No matter how good your connection with her is, no matter how hot the sex, no matter how much fun you have together, no matter how much you love each other even - she will drop you if she does not believe that you are a good candidate to be a husband and father, to be "the one". In doing so, such women often pass up a ton of wonderful experiences and connections with guys...and of course those guys miss out too. And btw, the ladies trade tips and techniques on how to evaluate a man as a potential husband and father and how to "catch him" in a way not very different from the sort of discussions much heard here on how to identify the women who will have sex with you, how to seduce them etc. Imo, these are very symmetrical approaches to dating and have very symmetrical limitations/flaws.

2 - @Solong, you have mentioned wasting time in "aimless" relationships, ones with no goals, a few times in the discussion above. This is a bit of a misunderstanding. I am not saying that a person should not have goals in a relationship, and indeed I generally have them myself...including the goal of seducing a woman in many cases. Rather I am saying that one should not set such goals *in advance* as the single and only interesting/successful possible outcome. Imo it is a good idea to meet someone and get to know them before deciding what sort of social relationship one wants to have with them and what sort of goals make sense for a social relationship with that person. To me this seems like ordinary common sense, in fact.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

I can totally concur with Ww here on the girltalk. I've had great friendships with women after I've been to bed with them.....many (not all) have treated me as an "equal" in their world even after the relationship sexually has ended and believe you me.....they've got some mouths on them when it comes to talking about guys in general

 

[Solong]

I disagree for two reasons and think that family is a very relevant/appropriate comparison/parallel (note use of numbered list here):

1 - While we of course cannot choose who our mother or brothers etc are, adults definitely can and routinely do choose how closely connected they stay to their birth family members. It is well within the range of common family situations for adults to see and communicate with some of their birth-family members only superficially and fairly rarely (maybe once per year at the holidays plus an occasional phone call) while other people see their birth-family members on close to a daily basis and have very close and emotionally intimate connections to them. In other words, there remain plenty of choices to be made about how much to associate with one's birth-family relatives.

2 - Even more importantly, one of the most common and conventional outcomes of dating activities is the formation of a new family, i.e., finding a long-term or life-long mate with whom to have/make a new family (with or without children). Thus, it is particularly sensible to look at potential dating type relationships in at least somewhat the same way one looks at family relationships.

If you are saying that for you any worthwhile and satisfying relationship with a woman must involve sex or money as important elements (that anything else would be a "waste"), then (another numbered list!): 1 - You have illustrated my point that your "competitive and goal-oriented language and concepts" are profoundly limiting your social relationships with women, and 2 - you have convinced me that you might be better off sticking with your methods (not that you have any need to convince me)!

-Ww

Choosing Family VS Friends & Lovers

Let's agree to disagree a bit on that one. A person doesn't usually and truly have a choice about family members until they reach 18 or so (adulthood). And this choice is very much influenced by the 18 or so years of being raised in that household. That household has often shaped how the person thinks and percieved the world.

True, as an adult or even a runaway teenager, there can be a choice to reject family members. However, that is very unusual, and can be at the cost of great emotional pain.

Family and meeting people outside of one's family should arguably be treated in a different context. Most of us are not interested in sex with family members or seeing them wear lingerie. Choosing friends is also much more a reflection of free will vs being born into a family.

And we may choose to start families with people that we meet, but again this is more a reflection of so-called personal free will, then having no choice as to who your parents are. We can be very particular about the attributes we want in a future husband or wife, where we had ZERO choice about the attributes of our parents.

 

[Wwanderer]

Let's agree to disagree a bit on that one.

I'm always agreeable to disagreeing! ;-)

-Ww

 

[majimekun]

wow .... the thread has gone into a direction that I don't understand at all
What are you guys talking about??

 

[Solong]

wow .... the thread has gone into a direction that I don't understand at all
What are you guys talking about??

It went a bit sideways, I think, in reference to men having goal-oriented interactions with women on dates or in general. Though, the point of women being overly marriage or Mr. Right/Perfect crazy was mentioned too.

Arguably, a guy going for sex on a date, learning any technique, or putting anything into the context of success or failure might be considered bad or harmful by some. Where letting everything "just happen" (magically?) is considered good or preferred.

Hold on for a second. After typing that, I probably should get an umbrella, there might be a storm coming.

 

[Wwanderer]

wow .... the thread has gone into a direction that I don't understand at all
What are you guys talking about??

I'd summarize it like this: You and @Solong and others talk about dating women as though it were some sort of sport, say golf, with one clear/simple goal against which success/failure can be clearly measured and you trade ideas/tips/techniques/observations all focused on achieving this goal. I simply pointed out that it is possible (and desirable imo) to take a broader view of important human relationships, that they are not (or need not be) as simple and one dimensional as sports. I also pointed out that a very similar and common female over-simplification of dating is an almost exclusive focus on marriage, on finding MrRight. Imo AND EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE both preconceived single-minded approaches needlessly cost people some of life's richest experiences and relationships.

@Solong's post above mischaracterizes my preferred approach (about which I have said little) as letting things "just happen". I doubt that any woman with whom I've had a significant relationship would say that I let things "just happen".

Is that any clearer? Does that help at all? If not, maybe you could ask a more specific question about what part of the above discussion you don't understand.

-Ww

 

[majimekun]

So, in the animal kingdom in which animals all use sorts of technics to court the female .... courting is all about sport?
Male need both social interactions and sex.
But I never do it only for the sex.
I love having women around ... atually, that's the most enjoyable thing in life if you ask me

 

[Wwanderer]

I love having women around ... actually, that's the most enjoyable thing in life if you ask me

I am in total agreement.

-Ww