White Men of Japan

because i didnt have another chance... i mean you need a job, you need a flat...
so how do you get it? apply for it as everybody else does... and since it is japan, of course i had to do it the same way japanese people do it... in japanese of course... i wouldnt even know how to do it any other way... nice experience btw...

though i have been at some farewell party recently, a friend (japanese) moved abroad with her husband (american)... except for two of my friends everybody was foreign and the general impression was that its either teaching, or working in a foreign IT company, otherwise you get nothing...

mind you, none of the people there spoke decent japanese (mediocre at best), but they all said that they never need to... i was very surprised...

but maybe thats why some people cone across as "entitled"...
 
Frenchy said:
I would not be surprised if he tried a soapland at least once
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My guess is that he would be more concerned about the press if it got out. In the past being in Japan gave a huge amount of anonymity for everybody - celebs and laymen alike. But these days a story about a celeb sneaking out of a soapland would soon break out of the local media and be bouncing around the internet. By the end of the week everybody in the US would have been educated on what a soapland is.
 
TheScientist said:
Healthy in Keith Richards sort of way...



Lived in NYC and hung out in the same part of the East Village where Iggy lived. Met him first in this really weird sushi place near Thompkins Square Park and we got along so we'd hang out sometimes. NYC used to be like that. Pretty much how I kew some of The Ramones & The Talking Heads as well. Ryuichi Sakamoto used to live in the upper East Village also but he wasn't very social with people he didnt know.



I read he has an apartment behind Tokyo Midtown but never seen him around there. Maybe he's splitting his time between the US & Japan.
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Interesting stuff! I thought I would share some miscellaneous stuff as well. My father grew up just down the street from The Turtles in Westchester, Los Angeles. My father would often go to their house and play guitar with them while they were forming their band, but he was too young to join the band. My father bought one of John Lennon's last guitars, which was a Rickenbacker. He is still holding onto it because he cares more about having one of John Lennon's guitars than money, which he already has. He is also good friends with Chuck Negron. They became good friends during his times facing heroin addiction. Though they have been drifting apart over the years, I remember going to a Three Dog Night concert (soon before they broke up) and Chuck introduced me to his band mates Cory Wells and Danny Hutton. They were all really down to earth guys. I also once met "Fieldly" the bassist for Korn while working at Lowe's Home Improvement (while in high school). I just shook his hand and told him to keep making music (not so much a Korn fan now).
 
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ShowaJidai said:
My guess is that he would be more concerned about the press if it got out. In the past being in Japan gave a huge amount of anonymity for everybody - celebs and laymen alike. But these days a story about a celeb sneaking out of a soapland would soon break out of the local media and be bouncing around the internet. By the end of the week everybody in the US would have been educated on what a soapland is.
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Yes, well he's the guy who boasted about fucking any type of girls including a one-legged lady so maybe he would not care that much :D
 
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Groupies is one thing but with the rise in "awareness about human trafficking"
in the west I would bet that he would have some problems.
 
vondoom said:
i dont even think about people backgrounds... the only thing i noticed when meeting foreigners (i must say that it doesnt happen often) is that they work the same jobs, got the same interests, the same taste and so on... and thats why i always wonder why people try to avoid others, while they should get along perfectly...
i would be happy to meet people with a similar taste to mine...
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That is probably why they avoid each other.. all stuck in the same kind of boring jobs. They didn't come to a different country to hang out with foreigners of course. The best way to fit in in Japan in whichever scene you want to be in (because there are many different social structures in Japan and the one is not the other) is to make Japanese friends in that scene.

One could get out of the standard foreigner jobs if they have Japanese connections, but if they dont and mainly hang out with foreigners, they will be in the foreigner position forever.
 
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to me it often comes across as that they want to avoid each other because being foreign is the only thing that makes them stand out...

all people i talked to (briefly, as mentioned... i dont have any foreign friends) told me that they want to change their jobs, but it isnt possible to find anything outside teaching/it/recruiting... (if course there are foreign managers, or lawyers and such)

i used to jobhunt a lot and i also got to say that a lot of japanese companies just dont want any foreigners there...
to japanese people its also always surprising when you are not in typical foreigner jobs... everybody has to play a role as it seems (even my boss said so)...

i also doubt that most foreigners got any skill to get hired outside of the typical foreigner jobs... not that they couldnt do it, but if youre trained in IT, you get those jobs here... usually you get hired for what you studied and nothing else...

also i think that to fit in, you somehow got to rely on your luck, or be yourself... none of the people i know like it when someone wants to be a part of something... to them its either you are that way, or you are not... and while everybody might be friendly, i cant remember how often i heard people bad mouthing others once they went out the door (about foreigners and japanese alike)...
the difficult part with that is that most people got their friends and places... people who are new of course dont have that... often from the japanese peoples point of view newcomers are invading their privacy... its like someone just crashes your party, or sits down in your living room... might be okay once, but dont do it too often... japanese people get that (or often understand before doing it), foreigners dont...

of course that is often lack of knowledge...
 
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vondoom said:
to me it often comes across as that they want to avoid each other because being foreign is the only thing that makes them stand out...

all people i talked to (briefly, as mentioned... i dont have any foreign friends) told me that they want to change their jobs, but it isnt possible to find anything outside teaching/it/recruiting... (if course there are foreign managers, or lawyers and such)

i used to jobhunt a lot and i also got to say that a lot of japanese companies just dont want any foreigners there...
to japanese people its also always surprising when you are not in typical foreigner jobs... everybody has to play a role as it seems (even my boss said so)...

i also doubt that most foreigners got any skill to get hired outside of the typical foreigner jobs... not that they couldnt do it, but if youre trained in IT, you get those jobs here... usually you get hired for what you studied and nothing else...

also i think that to fit in, you somehow got to rely on your luck, or be yourself... none of the people i know like it when someone wants to be a part of something... to them its either you are that way, or you are not... and while everybody might be friendly, i cant remember how often i heard people bad mouthing others once they went out the door (about foreigners and japanese alike)...
the difficult part with that is that most people got their friends and places... people who are new of course dont have that... often from the japanese peoples point of view newcomers are invading their privacy... its like someone just crashes your party, or sits down in your living room... might be okay once, but dont do it too often... japanese people get that (or often understand before doing it), foreigners dont...

of course that is often lack of knowledge...
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Well, most english teachers do have a degree in something very different, but like you said their language skills only allow English teaching..

I totally agree with the second part of your post, fitting in is not gonna work if you're playing a role, the way people place you has to actually fit you.
 
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i think the language ability usually isnt the biggest problem... but when you worked as a teacher for a few years, or maybe even never worked in anythin else, then of course no one hires you as a scientist, without any experience...


well japanese play a role, too... but its like the class clown and so on... its in every society i think... some people just try to force themselves in, or try to be more japanese than the japanese... i remember how my boss and my coworker started laughing when some foreign customer was the only one eating fries with chopsticks^^
 
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User#8628 said:
Well, most english teachers do have a degree in something very different
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Often something useless like gender studies or underwater basket weaving. Something that doesn't even qualify for "you want fries with that?" work. There's a good reason they get called dancing monkeys.
 
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I've spent time in other countries before because of either work or educational reasons. My experience was always that foreigners (especially Americans but all English speakers in the broader sense) would stick together. I've made some good friends this way in the past.

Only when it comes to Japan have I ever seen foreigners go against that tendency. Some of my acquaintances (and some TAG members) seem to be of the opinion that they want to disavow (maybe not the best word) their origin and integrate as completely into Japanese society as they can, even to the point of avoiding their own countrymen.

I may end up working in Japan on a long-term basis (long story, don't care to explain). While I would obviously want to know the language and customs to the greatest extent possible, I would not go so far as to stop being _______ (insert nationality here) and try to be Japanese.

My humble opinion is that this kind of thing causes more problems than they solve. The Japanese are very protective of what they consider to be "their" culture and do not want to be copied. If you can, as a foreigner, understand and respect these customs while staying true to your own, they will show you much more respect than if you were some random dude with an identity crisis trying to be Japanese because you don't even know who you are yourself.

A foreigner who has reason to be in the country and contributes as a foreigner (i.e. not a wannabe) is treated better than a guy who is completely at their Japanese boss' mercy because he is desperate to stay in the country and has no other choice.

Just my thoughts here.
 
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Lukes said:
I've spent time in other countries before because of either work or educational reasons. My experience was always that foreigners (especially Americans but all English speakers in the broader sense) would stick together. I've made some good friends this way in the past.

Only when it comes to Japan have I ever seen foreigners go against that tendency. Some of my acquaintances (and some TAG members) seem to be of the opinion that they want to disavow (maybe not the best word) their origin and integrate as completely into Japanese society as they can, even to the point of avoiding their own countrymen.

I may end up working in Japan on a long-term basis (long story, don't care to explain). While I would obviously want to know the language and customs to the greatest extent possible, I would not go so far as to stop being _______ (insert nationality here) and try to be Japanese.

My humble opinion is that this kind of thing causes more problems than they solve. The Japanese are very protective of what they consider to be "their" culture and do not want to be copied. If you can, as a foreigner, understand and respect these customs while staying true to your own, they will show you much more respect than if you were some random dude with an identity crisis trying to be Japanese because you don't even know who you are yourself.

A foreigner who has reason to be in the country and contributes as a foreigner (i.e. not a wannabe) is treated better than a guy who is completely at their Japanese boss' mercy because he is desperate to stay in the country and has no other choice.

Just my thoughts here.
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Not everyone has the luxury to like their homecountry.

Also, you can argue how long someone has to "play the foreigner role". If someone is really in it for the long run, after some years they will have been here longer than in their original country, they might be fluent in Japanese, know the current politics and social situations better than whatever is going on in their homecountry where they maybe only go back to once in a long while.
They should still act like the token foreigner who is so incredibly ___ (insert nationality).

I don't avoid foreigners but i certainly dont seek out people from my specific country and i definitely make a point of going into environments where i am the only foreigner, that is the best way to really become part of the country. Expat town is fine but if you are there all the time you dont improve your knowledge about language and culture.

I guess its about balance and also about if you plan to return to your homecountry/work in other countries or if you are making a life in Japan.
 
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Lukes said:
I've spent time in other countries before because of either work or educational reasons. My experience was always that foreigners (especially Americans but all English speakers in the broader sense) would stick together. I've made some good friends this way in the past.

Only when it comes to Japan have I ever seen foreigners go against that tendency. Some of my acquaintances (and some TAG members) seem to be of the opinion that they want to disavow (maybe not the best word) their origin and integrate as completely into Japanese society as they can, even to the point of avoiding their own countrymen.

I may end up working in Japan on a long-term basis (long story, don't care to explain). While I would obviously want to know the language and customs to the greatest extent possible, I would not go so far as to stop being _______ (insert nationality here) and try to be Japanese.

My humble opinion is that this kind of thing causes more problems than they solve. The Japanese are very protective of what they consider to be "their" culture and do not want to be copied. If you can, as a foreigner, understand and respect these customs while staying true to your own, they will show you much more respect than if you were some random dude with an identity crisis trying to be Japanese because you don't even know who you are yourself.

A foreigner who has reason to be in the country and contributes as a foreigner (i.e. not a wannabe) is treated better than a guy who is completely at their Japanese boss' mercy because he is desperate to stay in the country and has no other choice.

Just my thoughts here.
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Totally agreed! No wannabe, and no Watanabe! :)We are here to bring what we can and being who we are, respecting local rules and culture of course, but not necessarily losing our "roots"
 
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As User#8628 mentioned, you don't have to fit in, but can still find a social circle (I'm paraphrasing for brevity) I'm of the mindset of not trying to fit in while in Tokyo... It doesn't matter how well you speak, read, write in Japanese (kanji, katakana, hiragana) you will never fit in because you are not Japanese - this is my opinion... Living in Tokyo is like anyplace else - has great aspects and drawbacks... I've only been here 6 years, but have been coming to Japan 20 yrs... geez, I'm getting old. I moved here because I wanted a new chapter in life and I have found one - interesting most times and if I want to be bored I can choose that. As for the original posts, there are some truths to the categories, but I don't believe credibility should be given to the TS (Thread Starter) because her negative vibe is way to strong for me. We meet people wherever we go.. Some are Great and some are Not.. hopefully your karma follows you and you have more encounters with Great People then not... otherwise change your route, ride, or venue.... we all can choose the interactions we have... Just my thoughts on this on a lazy Sunday afternoon....
 
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User#8628 said:
Not everyone has the luxury to like their homecountry.

Also, you can argue how long someone has to "play the foreigner role". If someone is really in it for the long run, after some years they will have been here longer than in their original country, they might be fluent in Japanese, know the current politics and social situations better than whatever is going on in their homecountry where they maybe only go back to once in a long while.
They should still act like the token foreigner who is so incredibly ___ (insert nationality).

I don't avoid foreigners but i certainly dont seek out people from my specific country and i definitely make a point of going into environments where i am the only foreigner, that is the best way to really become part of the country. Expat town is fine but if you are there all the time you dont improve your knowledge about language and culture.

I guess its about balance and also about if you plan to return to your homecountry/work in other countries or if you are making a life in Japan.
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You make many valid points and I respect your take on the subject. Making a life in Japan isn't easy so I give some props to anyone that manages and is willing to take the plunge.

It's true that some are in Japan because they aren't fond of their home country (or left because of compelling reasons). Likewise, individuals that are in it for the "long haul" may be so well versed in the language and culture that it's more natural to them than that of which they came from.

But my point is that no matter how "Japanese" a foreigner may consider themselves, they will always be Gaijin in the eyes of native born Japanese. It's one of those sucky realities but it's more or less true in all cases. One could walk, talk and act like a Japanese but he'd still be kind of like the Keanu Reeves character in the 47 Ronin movie. Being foreign doesn't mean you have to "act foreign" or just be some token gaijin but it does mean acknowledging the (current) Japanese opinion/feeling on the matter. Those that reject reality do so to their own disadvantage.

Among my Japanese counterparts, I choose to be me and not try to be them. I try to respect their ways and they try to respect mine. Again, I recognize some have unique situations so this may not apply to all.

Frenchy said:
Totally agreed! No wannabe, and no Watanabe! :)We are here to bring what we can and being who we are, respecting local rules and culture of course, but not necessarily losing our "roots"
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Hell yes!
 
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While I am a caucasian American I was raised in a place that was very different from the usual WASP neighborhood. Thus I don't quite fit in most standard American settings. I won't pretend that I can become Japanese - and wouldn't choose it were it offered. But I have mastered the language here primarily to be viable as a professional in a number of industries. But that ability also allows me to effortlessly glide into social settings where speaking Japanese is required. I really enjoy the number of experiences this has permitted me to be part of.

In the same way that I cannot claim the Hispanic culture in which I grew up as mine I cannot claim this culture. This leaves me free to be who I am - understanding but not tied to it .
 
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I think that whole "you will never Japanese" is pretty subjective and a bit dramatic.
Yes, it may be true if you meet new people, they may mistake you for a tourist.

But i know of some people who have lived here very long and work in Japanese companies and their coworkers treat them no different.
They will even gossip about "bad gaijin" right in front of their ethnically foreign coworker, and not in a passive aggresive way but just in a "this doesn't include you" way.
 
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ShowaJidai said:
I won't pretend that I can become Japanese - and wouldn't choose it were it offered. But I have mastered the language here primarily to be viable as a professional in a number of industries. But that ability also allows me to effortlessly glide into social settings where speaking Japanese is required. I really enjoy the number of experiences this has permitted me to be part of.
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This. Many people complain they don't get into circles or cannot make real friends in Japan because foreigners "can never be part of the society" or "true blooded Japanese stick together" while most of the time the reason is you don't speak their language well enough to really fit in.

I don't make friends, and I mean real friends, very easily. In any country. It takes around 20 years or so for me. And most of the people who complain they can't make any Japanese friends have been living here just a few years. So for me that's just normal then.

And while there always (or let's say always when I will be alive) will be people in many countries which are now mono-cultural that will not treat anyone born outside as one of their own that is changing too. The world is getting smaller and more international like it or not. I have seen this change in Europe in the last 20 or so years where in countries which originally were one race - one language (as much as it was possible in Europe) and which are now multiracial, multicultural. Not saying it is good, not saying it is bad, just saying it is the future also in Japan.

So even if it might be that our generation will never allow anyone without pure blood to be "a real Japanese" then at least for the next generation with lots of half children and more non-Japanese people living here since their birth it will be different.
 
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MikeH said:
.

I don't make friends, and I mean real friends, very easily. In any country. It takes around 20 years or so for me. And most of the people who complain they can't make any Japanese friends have been living here just a few years. So for me that's just normal then.
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Hey...

Who needs friends when you have TAG???:love::love::love:
 
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There are not many of my countrymen in Japan but in the rare case I meet one we at least try to know each other and exchange contacts. After that depending on how each person is we can become friends or mere acquaintances.
Overall most of my friends in Japan are foreigners from various countries and Japan is actually the first country I had to speak English in.
I do have some Japanese friends and many Japanese acquaintances or drinking buddies, due to the Japanese shy and reserved character I think it's not easy to become friend with them, they hardly reveal themselves so the relation doesn't easily goes as deep as friendship.
 
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