Racism In Japan?

[TheDutchElm]

This thread reminded me of this:

http://itsnotmejapanitsyou.tumblr.com/post/74315008834/when-shin-kun-met-mr-david-cameron-esq-i

 

[psd]

Japan that they can't sever shouldn't bitch about their lot in life. This was the life you made.

Can you point me to the part of that article where people were "bitching"?

I mean, if we want to spare a thought for foreigners in Japan, we should be thinking about the Africans and Middle Easterners that are rotting in the Gaijin Gulag. Those guys have it tough.

Are you that emotionally stunted that you can only spare a thought for people in the very worst situation? My broken leg doesn't matter because there are people dying of cancer? I've seen a long procession of talented people leave Japan for these very reasons and I know some at least are doing much better. That's a loss for both them and for Japan. My first year in Japan was miserable; now I'm the best time of my life and everyday I'm thankful I am healthy, have stable employment, comfortable home and wonderful friends (my family). But I have serious professional issues that I have no idea how to solve (I am so specialized you've never heard of my job). Of course I could just pack my bags and go "home" and abandon an apartment filled with 20 years of purchases and experience.

How is that trivialising anyone else's experience? Oh, I forgot, there's some Africans in Shingawa immigration detention about to be deported. Sorry I mentioned it. I'll just crawl back under a rock and enjoy my privilege.

 

[TheDutchElm]

@psd, I think his point is that while a paper cut and a femoral artery laceration are both bleeding, one might be slightly more egregious than the other. We should probably take the same approach to racist injustices that doctors take to triage: worst injuries get the most attention (though not all of it). And to be fair, the civil rights issues involved in immigration detention are pretty horrifying. People have been and still are dying in there.

 

[psd]

@psd, I think his point is that while a paper cut and a femoral artery laceration are both bleeding, one might be slightly more egregious than the other. We should probably take the same approach to racist injustices that doctors take to triage: worst injuries get the most attention (though not all of it). And to be fair, the civil rights issues involved in immigration detention are pretty horrifying. People have been and still are dying in there.

So only the very worst situations can be addressed in media? The fact this article may be interesting and useful to some people is totally irrelevant? Should I just ignore my own problems?

And I do note that you chose to trivialise these situations with an extreme analogy "paper cut".

 

[TheDutchElm]

Nowhere did anyone suggest your problems are not problems. Argument from Relative Deprivation is a fallacy. But in the grand scheme of things, an article like the Japan Times article about "gotcha" problems foreigners face in Japan might do well to be a little more self aware about problems beyond "white guy problems".

The example that annoyed me most from that article was the poor guy whose in-laws berated him for going back to school. On full pay. After serving in the Navy for 20 YEARS.

 

[Ladylisa]

I have a friend whose half-Japanese/half-white kid was being called gaijin and gaikokujin and told that she was kimoi (gross) and her brown hair was the color of unchi (shit).

The kids whose mothers were Chinese or Filipina escaped this, but she got it for having an obviously gaijin (white) parent.
Yes, things are better in a lot of ways for white foreigners, but just the word gaijin is a kind of "othering" and a way to exclude others.

This kid was born in Japan and went to preschool and school with most of these kids but when they started learning about it from the wider society the crap started.
Her words "They treat me like a dog or a toy. I just want them to know I'm a person too"

 

[Keiji]

[...]
Frankly I see in East Asia societies where open racism is tolerated. Don't get me wrong, I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily, but it's incorrect to think that the U.S. Is just as " racist," when in much of the U.S. Whites can't even express their own identities.




Could any commercial with this level of open racism be aired on U.S. t.v.? Hell, these white folks aren't even allowed to be offended by this blatant disrespect in many circles.

Two more little replies that I have left out:
You don't need me for saying this any non white american can say it too. That Toshiba comercial is nothing compared to American Hollywood movies. You can have the most brigthest "LAW" you want which penalizes films that do not include minorities. But the reality for the rest of the World is that: The Nigger always die first" rule. And we are not talking about some underground C class category independent label. We are talking about Hollywood. You show to the rest of the World the White Shit all the time. And don't even think of talking about the new Fantastic Four which has a black guy when there's non in the comics for Johny Human Torch. Which is 1 movie out of thousands where the Nigger dies first is shoved to the face of all of us in the big screen. I get it, in some stories it would be ilogical to have a minority. So because a Nigger is shown in American movies for 5 minutes that doesn't lift or clear the fact that Americans are NOT racist. Quarter Racism, a third Racism, Half Racism its all still Racism. And you came to me with 1 commercial...versus 95% of Hollywood movies. I will believe your "LAWS" are effective when I watch enough movies where the Nigger gets to live the whole film. Until then your "LAWS" are nothing to me.

Now... I will reply the second small half to the other message.

 

[Keiji]

Ever wonder why there was a Japanese diaspora, and who went? It wasn't because they had no homeland.

Second small reply I left out:

Absolutely wondered about it all my life as a minor. I already wrote this in another thread. I did'nt like the West and came back to Japan, promising myself I would never again go to those countries. The problem is, that was the decision of my grand-parents...and since I was born "2" generations afterwards...there really isn't much I could have done to tell my ancestors..."Don't fuckin" leave Japan".

The thing is as pointed out in the article comments:

I didn't like the West and left. But then theres countless foreigners in Japan who complain and stay...

At least I do make sense.

Can I laugh at foreigners who don't like Japan but still stay?

 

[User#3673]

White people complaining in this forum oftenly look ridiculous to me. Since the nature of this website is about P4P, its in the sex business where westerns make negative comments the most.

Most of the users here complain about the "Japanese only" sign at red zone shops. But for minorities living in the Western world it was much more degradating than that. How many times in my teenage years was I denied entry to a DANCE CLUB just because I was Japanese? The touts used to hold me outside saying stuff like: "Get the fuck off here and go back to China..." I was cut out to regunar venues, NOT ヘルス, ソプランド, or ピンクサロンs, just regular clubs.

All the supposely nice white people that whine here had come to Japan as adults some time after the beginning of the 2000s. But for minorities in the West, most of us faced White Racism while we were kids, teenagers....at young ages. It is much harder to take on White Racism when you are just a little boy than try to fend yourself off while already in adulthood.

If it were to be true that western countries had "embraced cultural diversity" as they "try" to shove it off here... then where were you all TAG registered users when I needed you the most? Because "supposely" everybody here (and in the West) is nice... so how come I never encountered them while I was there? Why nobody stood by my side when I was being targeted?

...And then you all say that the Japanese tend to ignore it, deny it or hide about it...

Keiji where were you denied entry to a Dance Club? Not in Canada I would think. Not in the USA I would think. But perhaps? I am guessing in France or somewhere like that? I`m curious.

 

[Expired Beef!]

If you are going to live in any foreign country, it's going to be the same as back home. In general, Japan is not all that bad. I've talked to many races here. Some have lived in other countries. They had the same problems. While there are problems here, most people go out of their way to be nice. Seems like a lot of anecdotal stuff being portrayed as hardcore racism when it should not be.

Keiji where did you experience that club thing? What kind of club are we talking? Ones where you need 100,000 grand to enter? Ones for stars? Otherwise, what clubs would care about your race as long as you had the cover fee?

 

[User#3673]

I speak a fair bit of Japanese and have been here for many, many years now. So in that time, unfortunately I have experienced racism. But it usually hasn`t been the in your face kind of racism that some people have had to experience and that
Keiji talks about in some of his posts. I have been told certain landlords would not rent me an apartment because I was a foreigner. In spite of the fact that my wife is Japanese. I was at a party in Kanagawa, and at the next table, a Japanese woman was loudly asked,
"Hey Mariko, would you date a gaijin?"

"No way!" She yelled.

"Why not!?"

"AIDS!"

Everyone at their table laughed.

I was with my teammates so just ignored it. But was pretty shocked to hear this. I thought, wow there are low class people at the next table.

I am caucasian. The browner you are in Japan, the worse the racism is I have heard from many. I talked with an African American man, who used to work for a very famous company in Tokyo, and he was stopped by the Japanese police and asked for ID
6 times in one year! A Nepalese man was falsely accused of murder and spent years in jail. Even after it became evident that he was innocent, it still took ages for him to be released. The story was in the media, and I`m sure some of you will know what I am talking about.

Racism exists everywhere. In my home country too. In some ways Japan is better than many countries, but in some ways she is worse, as so much is pushed under the carpet here, and Japanese refuse to acknowledge or discuss it. Google Burakumin problems or
racism against Burakumin and see what the Burakumin people feel about racism in Japan.

Have you ever talked to Japanese about the Burakumin? It is like talking to a cloud. They refuse to discuss it.

The lack of discussion leads to a lack of problem solving. Problems don`t just go away, the fester like a small fire, Hopefully it doesn`t grow into a blaze.

But I feel sometimes that Japanese think if they don`t acknowledge something it will go away in time. In some cases this is true, but in others it is not. You need to try to solve the problem not ignore it. And saying there is racism elsewhere or that it is worse elsewhere,is just blaming like a child.

It doesn`t solve the problem in your own backyard.

 

[Keiji]

You guys are missing the essence of my point. The Japanese diaspora spread around the World. Japanese went everywhere, and when we all came back to Japan...all stories were alike. So pointing at one country doesn't help. Less, lesser and least to address a specific kind of establishment, if it wasn't a club, it was a bar, or a coffee shop, its irrelevant. The point I am making is the comparison between P4P and regular life.

You know this thing where every local men will say: Let's not allow other race people to fuck our women.

The life degradating point I am making is that guys like me were just inocent boys just chilling around. Not horny, not honky or perverted in any way. The comparison is aimed to the point were P4P is obsece to even think about in some societies. Wherever you are, its much more easier to address refused entrance to any public shop versus a prostitution shop.

You people can't imagine how akward sounds these questions considering that I am just 1 among thousands, and that the inquiries mean you never encountered one of my kind before.

It's a constant ring in my head...: "How can people complain about Japan if they can't even undertand the language"...which without Japanese...You never had managed to talk these things out.

I am not trying to put anybody down or make him/her feel less in any way, it just surprises me that nobody else can say NO to white whinefests (new word in my dictionary after reading the comments to the JPT article).

 

[Expired Beef!]

Anecdotal! She is more or less on the "keep face" thing. Many people do it and then secretly bang foreigners. But then like you said, stuff is in the news. A woman was asked if she'd go to New York. She said she wouldn't because she didn't want to get assaulted sexually. A certain Japanese woman was attacked during the day on the subway and it was in her memoir. There is some story floating around about how a J woman got HIV from some gaijin sleeping around with club goers. Then there's the black men are deadbeats, players, and whatever else. But I see plenty of plain Japanese women with foreign men and J males with models. Money. Money plays a big part in this games. A British man built a multi-million dollar house here. He has all the bells and whistles. If I want one of his electronic devices, I'd have to secretly install it. Landlord said, "dame". Now is that racism or just a cultural thing? Culture may be more of the problem than say so-called racism. Then there is ignorance. The AIDS deal is born from ignorance, and culture. There is a term for a man or woman that dated or dates foreigners here on the same level as a white woman who was abducted or by choice had affairs with Native Americans. I learned this from a Japanese woman. Is that racism or just outright stupidity? Same things that people use here or say here have been said by others. And yes, since this did start with being denied service by pimps in this country, it certainly can be and has been done in other countries based on looks, nationality. Thais and Filipinas have stated that in their country they have total control over who they accept. Here they don't. I got into a candid conversation with a Japanese woman about such things and in general, ignorance plays a big part in all of this but why force a Japanese woman to accept a foreigner if she doesn't want to do so? She asked me if I'd have sex with anyone and everyone. I said no. She said well then there's your answer. We have preferences too. She even said that she prefers specific men because they are clean, just want straight sex, and give her extras. Is that reverse racism because she said she doesn't want to service her own ethnicity? While maybe there is no such thing as reverse racism since racism is racism, people do these things because of teachings from parents, teachers, and friends, and experience. They want to be seen in a certain light. They want to feel a certain way. So they do what allows them to survive. Survival is done in every country. I guess people forget the harshness of the realities of society. If all people were the same color, there'd be ways to discriminate. Unfortunately, too many people practice prejudice. But in Japan, De jure is a lot less the problem than de facto. There is nothing written that says a pimp has to offer you service nor is there anything written that says a woman has to accept your yen for sex just like a man and a woman can reject another's advances. Private, Prep, Gated, and places that only allow the rich into could be deemed racist by the definition here. I see no hard evidence the Japanese are inherently racist.

 

[Solong]

You guys are missing the essence of my point. The Japanese diaspora spread around the World. Japanese went everywhere, and when we all came back to Japan...all stories were alike. So pointing at one country doesn't help. Less, lesser and least to address a specific kind of establishment, if it wasn't a club, it was a bar, or a coffee shop, its irrelevant. The point I am making is the comparison between P4P and regular life.

You know this thing where every local men will say: Let's not allow other race people to fuck our women.

The life degradating point I am making is that guys like me were just inocent boys just chilling around. Not horny, not honky or perverted in any way. The comparison is aimed to the point were P4P is obsece to even think about in some societies. Wherever you are, its much more easier to address refused entrance to any public shop versus a prostitution shop.

You people can't imagine how akward sounds these questions considering that I am just 1 among thousands, and that the inquiries mean you never encountered one of my kind before.

It's a constant ring in my head...: "How can people complain about Japan if they can't even undertand the language"...which without Japanese...You never had managed to talk these things out.

I am not trying to put anybody down or make him/her feel less in any way, it just surprises me that nobody else can say NO to white whinefests (new word in my dictionary after reading the comments to the JPT article).

I don't know where Japanese are banned from clubs or renting apartments in the USA or Europe, but do see it in Japan.

 

[Keiji]

I will make this very ultra simple to all foreigners in Japan.

1.If you could enter to all dance clubs that you wanted in Japan. You already had a better life than me.
2.If you could enter to all bar/pubs that you wanted in Japan. You already had it better than me.
3.If you could enter to any food shop that you wanted in Japan. You are luckier than me.

Because the West doesn't give that to minorities.

And the best remark that can be made is by my grandparents:

"If you (foreigners) can complain in Japan. You are already luckier than us...because we (my grandparents) were murdered."

So to me, Japan is a better country that the rest, because Whites, Westerns, Gringors or whatever are nt targeted for a beat-down or kill like it happens outside.

For you to actually make valid complains it would requiere Japanese guys going to gang-up gaijins just because "yes", asit happens in the West... Only then...you can compare Japan with the rest of the world.

 

[Expired Beef!]

So let's go find some homeless foreigners because they could not find a mansion apartment. Yes, there are rejectors, but there are just as many takers. And people get rejected in the States based on income. It usually has nothing to do with ethnicity. I did see that Indians (India) can be denied leases. Indians tell me stuff that I never knew about America. So if you don't research, ask thousands of people like from different eras, after the war, the bubble years, and now, you can't really say much other than anecdotal stuff. All anecdotal. Show the systematic nature of racism here. Where is it? Someone said something about an innocent man convicted of a rape. Another murder. But after researching, Japanese men get wrongfully convicted too. It would be safe to say that the courts make big mistakes and hate to admit it.

I saw where some Japanese committed crimes in some foreign countries. People were shocked. But if a foreigner does it here people are alarmed. That's a cultural ignorance thing.

 

[TheDutchElm]

Word to the wise: "tu quoque" ("you do it too!") and relative deprivation ("it's worse somewhere else!") are both logical fallacies. They are not sound arguments. Not surprisingly, these are the non-starters one runs up against most often when trying to discuss sensitive issues about Japan. "It doesn't matter who's got the better argument, just put everyone on level ground and let's all sweep it under the rug." And that's why things change so slowly here.

 

[John Chavers]

The problem is, that was the decision of my grand-parents

That "decision" was hardly your grand-parents'.

 

[psd]

Nowhere did anyone suggest your problems are not problems.

like this?
"Yes, it's hard to get by in Japan as a foreigner in a lot of cases, but so what?"

Yeah, so what? My problems are just "mildly annoying reverse racism", right?

"the real discriminated gaijin are the non-white foreigners"

Oh, it must be "virtual"?

"I'd re-up on white every damn time."

Unless of course I happened to be a permanent employee in a Japanese company.

"Micro-aggressions are annoying (I do internally roll my eyes when people ask if I can use hashi), but that kind of ignorant racism really only seems to have a lasting effect on people who insist on trying to fully integrate"

Thanks for that qualification at the end. No, actually I mean fuck off.

That's your biggest issue in life? お箸ができますか？Maybe you should say 猿も餌を食べられる。Or maybe you should carry a fork around with you. Fuck you. Some off us have real issues here that go beyond your issues in some Azabu restaurant.

Until you have committed a significant part of your life to Japan, fuck off.

Fuck you.

Oh, Meji? Fuck you too.

I think his point is that while a paper cut and a femoral artery laceration are both bleeding, one might be slightly more egregious than the other. We should probably take the same approach to racist injustices that doctors take to triage: worst injuries get the most attention

Argument from Relative Deprivation is a fallacy.

Don't use use terms you don't understand, ie both of them. Seriously, this is the dumbest thing you've said, which is quite an accomplishment. Think about what "relative" means you ignorant bigot. Yes, "bigot", or maybe I mean "cunt".

But in the grand scheme of things, an article like the Japan Times article about "gotcha" problems foreigners face in Japan might do well to be a little more self aware about problems beyond "white guy problems".

Even allowing for the fact that English might not be your first language, that is meaningless bullshit.

The example that annoyed me most from that article was the poor guy whose in-laws berated him for going back to school. On full pay. After serving in the Navy for 20 YEARS.

This seems to be a contrast to what you said before. Maybe try to explain what you are talking about.

By the way. Meji: fuck you. With a fence post, wrapped in barb wire.

Am I angry? Yes.

Fuck you TheDutchElm, and fuck you Meji.

Cunts.

 

[psd]

Anecdotal! She is more or less on the "keep face" thing. Many people do it and then secretly bang foreigners. But then like you said, stuff is in the news. A woman was asked if she'd go to New York. She said she wouldn't because she didn't want to get assaulted sexually. A certain Japanese woman was attacked during the day on the subway and it was in her memoir. There is some story floating around about how a J woman got HIV from some gaijin sleeping around with club goers. Then there's the black men are deadbeats, players, and whatever else. But I see plenty of plain Japanese women with foreign men and J males with models. Money. Money plays a big part in this games. A British man built a multi-million dollar house here. He has all the bells and whistles. If I want one of his electronic devices, I'd have to secretly install it. Landlord said, "dame". Now is that racism or just a cultural thing? Culture may be more of the problem than say so-called racism. Then there is ignorance. The AIDS deal is born from ignorance, and culture. There is a term for a man or woman that dated or dates foreigners here on the same level as a white woman who was abducted or by choice had affairs with Native Americans. I learned this from a Japanese woman. Is that racism or just outright stupidity? Same things that people use here or say here have been said by others. And yes, since this did start with being denied service by pimps in this country, it certainly can be and has been done in other countries based on looks, nationality. Thais and Filipinas have stated that in their country they have total control over who they accept. Here they don't. I got into a candid conversation with a Japanese woman about such things and in general, ignorance plays a big part in all of this but why force a Japanese woman to accept a foreigner if she doesn't want to do so? She asked me if I'd have sex with anyone and everyone. I said no. She said well then there's your answer. We have preferences too. She even said that she prefers specific men because they are clean, just want straight sex, and give her extras. Is that reverse racism because she said she doesn't want to service her own ethnicity? While maybe there is no such thing as reverse racism since racism is racism, people do these things because of teachings from parents, teachers, and friends, and experience. They want to be seen in a certain light. They want to feel a certain way. So they do what allows them to survive. Survival is done in every country. I guess people forget the harshness of the realities of society. If all people were the same color, there'd be ways to discriminate. Unfortunately, too many people practice prejudice. But in Japan, De jure is a lot less the problem than de facto. There is nothing written that says a pimp has to offer you service nor is there anything written that says a woman has to accept your yen for sex just like a man and a woman can reject another's advances. Private, Prep, Gated, and places that only allow the rich into could be deemed racist by the definition here. I see no hard evidence the Japanese are inherently racist.

Do you think you could put a paragraph break in there somewhere? You know, like, so we can read it?

 

[psd]

Word to the wise: "tu quoque" ("you do it too!") and relative deprivation ("it's worse somewhere else!") are both logical fallacies. They are not sound arguments. Not surprisingly, these are the non-starters one runs up against most often when trying to discuss sensitive issues about Japan. "It doesn't matter who's got the better argument, just put everyone on level ground and let's all sweep it under the rug." And that's why things change so slowly here.

Here's a word to the stupid.

These thoughts in your head are not understood by other people. Explain yourself.

 

[psd]

If you are going to live in any foreign country, it's going to be the same as back home. In general, Japan is not all that bad. I've talked to many races here. Some have lived in other countries. They had the same problems. While there are problems here, most people go out of their way to be nice. Seems like a lot of anecdotal stuff being portrayed as hardcore racism when it should not be.

And this is what I'm getting at. No one is burning crosses in my front yard but some of us are experiencing more than just "外人だ” type micro aggressions. Talk to anyone married to a Japanese national and with kids and see what they have to endure.

 

[TheDutchElm]

Tell us how you really feel.

 

[TheDutchElm]

Don't use use terms you don't understand, ie both of them. Seriously, this is the dumbest thing you've said, which is quite an accomplishment. Think about what "relative" means you ignorant bigot. Yes, "bigot", or maybe I mean "cunt".

I'm pretty amazed that your response to this comment, which speaks in your defense (one problem being less severe than another doesn't invalidate the less severe one: that's the gist behind the phrase "fallacy of relative deprivation"), was to call me names. Your ire is really misplaced here, @psd.

 

[Expired Beef!]

Do you think you could put a paragraph break in there somewhere? You know, like, so we can read it?

Sorry! I was on my keitai.