Is P4p Immoral?

[NormalGuy]

P4P - Men pay women for sex.
PUA - Men pay other men to teach how to get sex.

Seems like both are paying for sex in the long run.

Normal
Friend 1: "Wow, she's nice over there"
Friend 2: "Go over and talk to her"
Friend 1: "I'm shy"
Friend 2: "Just go over and ask her xyz"

PUA
Client 1: "Wow she's nice over there"
PUA: "You need to use technique SuperSexyIntroduction632"
Client 1: "What's that"
PUA "It's a PUA secret, but I'll teach it you on my PUA bootcamp, yours for a bargain price of xyz"
Client 1: "I'd never be able to speak to a woman otherwise, sign me up"

Now I know there are many reasons why people P4P, and it's not always about the inability to get sex, but in essence:

I think the morality for me is in the fact that in P4P both parties are making their own choices, one is profiting from the others inability to get something (sex)
In PUA it's the PUA teacher that replaces the escort, as they are the one profiting from the others inability to get something (sex)

For a PUA teacher to call P4P immoral just seems a little hypocritical

 

[Sudsy]

Seriously though, if we take the PUA people at their word that PUA at its best is an equal activity that sexually liberates both men and women with little negative consequences, and we accept the idea that most P4P in developed nations is a relatively fair and consensual exchange of services for money, then there isn't really much to argue about.

Likewise, in the worst-case examples of PUA (harassment or sexual assault) or P4P (sex-trafficking, monetary exploitation) both sides are also equally against these things.

Well said.

 

[Chocoballs]

PUA - Men pay other men to teach how to get sex.

This must be the most limited definition of PUA I ever read.

Then cooking would be bad too? Because some guys pay to take cooking classes? For everything that involves some learning you can pay someone to teach you. That doesn't make it bad.

 

[Sinapse]

Through all these debates, the one consistent belief expressed by all the PUA guys that still really bothers me is their discounting P4P sex as "real". Fundamentally, I think this means they disagree with the idea that sex can be a service. And the two main arguments from PUA to support this opinion is that P4P lacks a real personal connection and/because it requires little or no effort, besides paying, to get it.

p4p sex is very real! I don't even know what non-real sex would be! Maybe VR or porn or something..

I agree that sex can be and is a service, and I agree that people should be allowed to offer and desire it. My only problem, as I've stated before, is if a guy thinks it's his only option. As for the "personal connection" bit that's just a personal qualm. I personally can't have sex with someone based SOLELY on their looks, and I think it's over-inflating the value of the person (based only on physicality) when in reality that person is "worth" no more as a human being than anyone else. Sex is so abundant that I can't imagine paying for it just because a girl looks this way or that.. However, again this is in no way meant to tell other people what to do! If they want to pay for a girl based only on their physical appearance, why not?

As for providers.. well, if you can get money for it, sounds like a great deal to me, especially if you're naturally a very sexual person and can mentally enjoy or at least tolerate whoever comes through the door. Providers, especially the ones on this site who are independent (and thus totally consensual and separate from the Yaks) should be celebrated -- as should any woman who is comfortable and free with her sexuality.

It seems like most PUA guys feel they have a right to judge such things because they see themselves as having special skills, knowledge, and "truly" understand and/or care about women they're trying to pick up. In fact, they often attempt to portray P4P guys as "jealous" for paying for something PUA guys can get for "free". As with PUA, P4P is not a single, homogeneous group. There are probably some guys who pay because they have no other choice and wish they could be PUA (but why would they then hate on PUA?). But based my experience and on the TAG membership (including providers), this does not seem to be the majority of P4P guys. For most P4P guys, this is a convenient and valuable service in their lives. That's all. And to contrast P4P with PUA is just silly and shows a real lack of understanding of "the oldest profession in the world" (catering to one of the oldest desires in the world). P4P sex is not usually like PUA sex, but it still is sex. And let's not forget that within the vast realm of human sexuality, PUA and P4P combined would only represent a tiny fraction of it.

I agree here, and I've mentioned before that I think p4p for married career-based guys makes sense as a way to get sexual variety outside of their committed relationship.

Interesting, I think, how in another thread a certain couple people were getting on my case for not telling girls IMMEDIATELY that I was not planning on being monogamous with them ("It's DECEPTION"), when they in other threads defended married men going to prostitutes.

For a PUA teacher to call P4P immoral just seems a little hypocritical

I don't think p4p is 'immoral' in the classical sense. I think sex as a commodity is a bit disappointing, perhaps (as would making air or rainwater a commodity owned by a certain elite group, as I mentioned before). Immoral? No.

As for the whole "you guys make money from this so you have no ground to talk" argument..
@Dorian Gray is pretty much always talking about doing bootcamps for free to whoever wants (he believes nanpa should be free and open, like art), but alas the taxman cometh, and there's a certain righteous irony in paying the Japan tax-man with proceeds from having sex with spritely teens and spreading the word on how to do it. As for myself, I gave away advice for a LONG time before ever asking a penny for it (and only got into coaching after being requested to by the owner of Jlair and all the "old guard" veterans who tagged me as the guy who knew his shit the best and should be coaching with DG).. AND paying for coaching is not mandatory as I've said before (it does shave a LOT of time off the learning curve, though..). If people think we put all this time and effort into it because of the money... let me squash those claims right now. There's nowhere near enough money in this to make it worth it given how many hours we have put into this. We do it because we love seeing guys improve and progress - as nearly all do.

In short, as an apple-lover, I don't really hate the oranges at all, and support people who want to eat so! But I LOVE the apples so much that I've become quite the connossieur

Seriously though, if we take the PUA people at their word that PUA at its best is an equal activity that sexually liberates both men and women with little negative consequences, and we accept the idea that most P4P in developed nations is a relatively fair and consensual exchange of services for money, then there isn't really much to argue about.

Likewise, in the worst-case examples of PUA (harassment or sexual assault) or P4P (sex-trafficking, monetary exploitation) both sides are also equally against these things.

This is perhaps the most on-point thing anyone's said yet!

 

[NormalGuy]

Then cooking would be bad too? Because some guys pay to take cooking classes?

But if all the guys running the cooking schools started to tell everyone eating in nice restaurants that they were bad people (immoral), then yes that would be the same.

 

[John Chavers]

But if all the guys running the cooking schools wrote 50-page dissertations lambasting those eating in nice restaurants as bad people (immoral), then yes that would be the same.

FTFY.

 

[Mr Cat]

If p4p wasn't even slightly immoral then why escort can't show their face?

I have a LinkedIn profile with my face on it for everyone to see...

 

[Mr Cat]

Also I believe pua can truly help someone getting laid. A friend of mine who is ugly as shit with a creepy vibe was relentlessly tought by one of our friend how to talk to girls (especially japanese girls with their particularities) and little by little he improved, started getting some numbers, then some dates, then some sex, then a girlfriend.
This wasn't paid class or anything official written in a book, just our pua friend experience being passed on to the creepy friend (they've known each other for a while since college years) and to my surprise it's working.

 

[Mr Cat]

Then about myself, I've tried several ways : pickup in streets/bar/train, online dating, and p4p.

All where answering different needs I had at different times. And like I stated before I don't see why we should fight about which is better than the other since none is better or more moral, but are simply different. Just accept people doing things differently than you.

I did pickup when I enjoy the art of seduction, meeting someone I knew nothing of and getting to know the girl and enjoying shorter or longer relationship with them. Seducing a girl that is not particularly looking for it is appealing to me (more than husband hunters you'll find online). I was looking and found passion when doing pick up.

Then online dating, I used it when I had less time and wanted to know already a little about a person before actually meeting them. It was fun too and the girls doing online dating are also actively looking, which was the major down side for me, because I couldn't trust a person met online ( I caught several times the girls checking their account, hiding when receiving emails...).
I found many one night stand, and few sexfriends, little potential girlfriend using online dating.

Lastly p4p, I use it when I must fill my urgent need for sex and don't want to bother going on date or talk about my life. Like charly sheen said: I paid the escort not for the sex itself but for them to leave right after it. When using p4p I'm saving time and trouble by paying money
I'm looking for ejaculation when doing p4p.

All those 3 situation have pors and cons, based on each individual and each situation.

I'm glad to use all the different ways there is, so I live an exciting life

Ps: I also dated girls whom I met at home parties or through friends introduction or through work. Those being quite regular way to meet people I haven't developed much

 

[Chocoballs]

If p4p wasn't even slightly immoral then why escort can't show their face?

I have a LinkedIn profile with my face on it for everyone to see...

It's immoral for society. But then anything that is related to sex is immoral for society. The question is whether it is immoral for you.

 

[namae]

If p4p wasn't even slightly immoral then why escort can't show their face?

I have a LinkedIn profile with my face on it for everyone to see...

I assume Mr. Cat is not your real name.....and you are not posting a face photo here.... by your standards, this must mean TAG and your participation in the forum is an immoral activity. I am sure the Pope agrees with you. There are lots of people on LinkedIN......a real mixed bag.... a few of them totally devoid of ethics, morals or respect for laws

 

[Chocoballs]

If you're afraid of rejection you're not free and not living your desires honestly. Helping people overcome their fear and achieve what they want to achieve seems moral to me.

This kind of thinking is pretty common among people who aren't familiar with game or think that it's "cheesy pickup lines" or whatever. You'd laugh at some of the conventionally "ugly" men I've seen who went on to get with their ideal girls. On the flip side, I've seen "ugly" or seemingly unexceptional women score rich, "good-looking" younger men (yes, women can game too). So, Chocoballs...I'd challenge you to expand your definition of what seems possible.

I think PUA can be good if you can help people. It's great that you are coaching guys. Unfortunately getting a coach is not realistic for most and probably most PUA coaches / boot camps are not even that great. What I am talking about is the normal guy who reads a PUA book and then believes that one day he can pick up any hot girl. I think most guys end up frustrated.

It is a matter of how to use your time. For the normal guy it's better to invest in exercise and a good social circle because these have been scientifically proven to increase well-being.

 

[DJV]

I don't see what's wrong with people indulging you with their pretty face and make-up, telling you some nice stories you can relate to, provide you some high excitement, joy (sometimes tears) even for a fee and for a limited amount of time.

Oh god I love Moving Pictures !

More seriously, some providers are such wonderful entertainers, and there's no way you can claim such sophisticated, private and personalized show for free.

Is sexy entertainment immoral ?

 

[just4fun]

I think PUA can be good if you can help people. It's great that you are coaching guys. Unfortunately getting a coach is not realistic for most and probably most PUA coaches / boot camps are not even that great. What I am talking about is the normal guy who reads a PUA book and then believes that one day he can pick up any hot girl. I think most guys end up frustrated.

It is a matter of how to use your time. For the normal guy it's better to invest in exercise and a good social circle because these have been scientifically proven to increase well-being.

......plus......lots of coaches get fired

 

[zawarudo777]

What's immoral is filling some poor girl's head with nonsense with the intent of getting easy sex. I say fuck that, cut the nonsense and get straight to what both parties want. As long as your shops of choice are reputable I see no issue.

 

[Wwanderer]

What I am talking about is the normal guy who reads a PUA book and then believes that one day he can pick up any hot girl. I think most guys end up frustrated.

This, I suspect, is what most people have in mind when they use or hear the term PUA and is why it is generally regarded with suspicion and often hostility. It is a bit like popular/fad diet plans for losing weight; there are always proponents that swear by each one, but almost all of them fail for almost everyone despite their claims and promises.

It is a matter of how to use your time. For the normal guy it's better to invest in exercise and a good social circle because these have been scientifically proven to increase well-being.

Indeed so. Exactly!

It is often claimed that PUA can provide guys with lots of free sex, but it is only free if you do not count your time and the opportunity costs. For most guys, living a normal life in a positive, healthy, ambitious and balanced way produces a perfectly satisfactory and happy social life, with women and in general. And all the fears of rejection and difficulties in meeting and talking to women (that PUA is supposed to help you overcome) are a passing adolescent phase for most men, not a major long-term obstacle to a happy and successful life. But yes, there are exceptions.

-Ww

 

[bruv]

For most guys, living a normal life in a positive, healthy, ambitious and balanced way produces a perfectly satisfactory and happy social life, with women and in general. And all the fears of rejection and difficulties in meeting and talking to women (that PUA is supposed to help you overcome) are a passing adolescent phase for most men, not a major long-term obstacle to a happy and successful life. But yes, there are exceptions.

I reckon most guys haven't nearly achieved that balanced life you talk about, for whatever reason. Especially here in Japan. And women is probably the area of life most guys have put least effort into, settling with a college girlfriend, that one girl in the bar who didn't reject him, a coworker cuz he never goes out, or an online match with the first girl equally desperate to pair off. I seen this all too often.

 

[Solong]

... good social circle because these have been scientifically proven to increase well-being.

I disagree with social circles as being a constant source of sex and meeting women for the average guy. Many social circles that guys attach themselves in: simply don't have many available women in them, there is a negative group dynamic as far as women are concerned, introductions to new women are infrequent, or a strong social facade to openess about sex.

The exception are social circles where access to women is plentiful and a sexual context is acceptable. Like a guy involved with pole dancers or swingers. In that context, sex and women can be relatively plentiful.

Even in comparison to my swinger social circles, my PUA sexual escapades often far outstrips it in terms of sexual encounters and source of satisfaction. Though at times, I'm mixing both. For instance, introducing one of my ladies to the swinger lifestyle is often more fun and gratifying, than when swinger friends ask me to be a stud at a swinger party or to do a wife/girlfriend. I like both, just saying one is a bit more gratifying. Also even in the swinger context, we must synchronize schedules and at time organize parties, and that can be harder. Group dynamics. Where in th PUA context, I just ask one of my lady friends to join me; go down my list.

In fact, online dating and PUA (which also includes online pickup) can blow away most social circles, because you can go outside the circle and get what's not available in the circle. For example, if a Japanese woman wants to try sex with a White or Black guy, and none exist or it's not acceptable within her social circle.

 

[Wwanderer]

@Solong - Note that @Chocoballs said "increase well-being" not produce the most intensely active and varied sex life achievable. They are quite different things, at least for most people.

Swingers, mongers, PUAs and most TAG denizens are obsessed with sex and tend to make it their first (and seemingly almost only in some cases) priority, but that is not the norm nor is it necessarily particularly healthy or conducive to happiness and well-being. It would be like a group of ultra-rich people, billionaires say, who are obsessed with money and who regard any activity that doesn't maximize your net worth with high efficiency to be a bad way to go.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

It is often claimed that PUA can provide guys with lots of free sex, but it is only free if you do not count your time and the opportunity costs. For most guys, living a normal life in a positive, healthy, ambitious and balanced way produces a perfectly satisfactory and happy social life, with women and in general. And all the fears of rejection and difficulties in meeting and talking to women (that PUA is supposed to help you overcome) are a passing adolescent phase for most men, not a major long-term obstacle to a happy and successful life. But yes, there are exceptions.

-Ww

Time, Money, or Both

Pick your poison. I've always looked at it as a matter of efficiency and what's personally satisfying to a man. That's why I don't go on these dogmatic tirades against the other side, and see it more as personal choice and preferences.

 

[Wwanderer]

I reckon most guys haven't nearly achieved that balanced life you talk about, for whatever reason. Especially here in Japan. And women is probably the area of life most guys have put least effort into, settling with a college girlfriend, that one girl in the bar who didn't reject him, a coworker cuz he never goes out, or an online match with the first girl equally desperate to pair off. I seen this all too often.

Fwiiw, my experience and impressions are quite different from yours.

There could be several reasons; the most likely is that we simply move in different social circles in one or more ways. For example, the guys I know are probably mostly rather older than the guys you know. And I do know a fair number of men who did not really get their romantic/sexual lives settled into any satisfactory state until they were around 40yo. Typically it was because they did not put enough time and effort into dating etc while they were in the process of establishing their careers and incomes successfully in their 20s and 30s.

Another important point is that those men I know who do have major unhappiness in life due to lack of a sexual or romantic life/partner are usually NOT in that situation because they never learned to meet and talk to women. That is actually the easiest part in mnay ways; keeping a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term (let's call that a decade or more) is MUCH MUCH harder and failure to do so is far more common than failure to ever start relationships with women.

In other words, it still seems to me that PUA techniques are an overkill solution to a relatively minor (short-lived) challenge for most men. This is probably the reason it has remained a fringe "movement" attracting a fairly small number of adherents for decades now.

Part of the difference in our perspective may well also come from our describint the same situation differently. For example, most people probably would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, but that does not mean that their lives are unhappy or ruined just because things could have been better. You can say similar things about many other aspects of life, say, money. Most people would also perfer to make more money and for less hard work than they actually do, but again that does not imply that their financial and professional situations have caused them to have an unhappy or unsuccessful life. Very very few people's lives are so good in any way at all that they could not posssibly be better; in that sense we nearly all "settle" in almost every possible realm of life. You can call those glasses/lives half full (my perspective) or half empty (perhaps yours?).

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

My point that starting relationships is the easy part is spelled out in a bit more detail here:

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/keeping-a-girl-interested-in-you.9689/page-2#post-42907

-Ww

 

[bruv]

Fwiiw, my experience and impressions are quite different from yours.

There could be several reasons; the most likely is that we simply move in different social circles in one or more ways. For example, the guys I know are probably mostly rather older than the guys you know. And I do know a fair number of men who did not really get their romantic/sexual lives settled into any satisfactory state until they were around 40yo. Typically it was because they did not put enough time and effort into dating etc while they were in the process of establishing their careers and incomes successfully in their 20s and 30s.

Another important point is that those men I know who do have major unhappiness in life due to lack of a sexual or romantic life/partner are usually NOT in that situation because they never learned to meet and talk to women. That is actually the easiest part in mnay ways; keeping a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term (let's call that a decade or more) is MUCH MUCH harder and failure to do so is far more common than failure to ever start relationships with women.

In other words, it still seems to me that PUA techniques are an overkill solution to a relatively minor (short-lived) challenge for most men. This is probably the reason it has remained a fringe "movement" attracting a fairly small number of adherents for decades now.

Part of the difference in our perspective may well also come from our describint the same situation differently. For example, most people probably would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, but that does not mean that their lives are unhappy or ruined just because things could have been better. You can say similar things about many other aspects of life, say, money. Most people would also perfer to make more money and for less hard work than they actually do, but again that does not imply that their financial and professional situations have caused them to have an unhappy or unsuccessful life. Very very few people's lives are so good in any way at all that they could not posssibly be better; in that sense we nearly all "settle" in almost every possible realm of life. You can call those glasses/lives half full (my perspective) or half empty (perhaps yours?).

-Ww

You gotta be running with an elite crowd or something mate, or yeah a generation gap thing cuz it's just not what I see out there. It's a toughie though, you describe satisfaction and happiness as the same or similar things, but I don't see it that way. In that case you're right about our difference in perspective, which I appreciate you explaining yours.

The guys who are actually happy with the quality of girls they're able to date in my experience are a small minority. The guys who are satisfied with what they got are a much broader range, including the happy guys, but all the way down through to the guys resigned to living in comfortable mediocrity. These guys are the majority. They're the ones with an average life, average girlfriend, nothing especially wrong with settling, but meanwhile they're sharing giant bubble butt Latina pics between them over WhatsApp, fantasising about slapping that jelly instead of going out and getting it for real. Like you say, some guys would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, and yet for various reasons haven't put the effort in. Does it affect their happiness? Its easier to be satisfied with what you got for sure, maybe even they're happier not trying, not knowing. Glass half-full as you call it. But man, I could never live like that. Rather fail than just not try.

Yo, I get it though, it's not the mentality of the average person. Call it glass half-empty if you like, I just call it exploring the limits of my potential. Win or lose, for me it's a catalyst to a life truly glass-full.

 

[johnnyboy84]

I know I am late to this thread but a majority of what I wanted to say and what needs to be said, has already been said. I grew up in a very libertarian community and household so my view on p4p is very reflective on my personal upbringing.

Of course as long as the women are not trafficked or underaged, that's a good start. That would suck. Granted a good percentage of women are in it for the money, and some really enjoy sex. Are we acting on our human desire? Most likely, we are. That is what motivated me to participate in p4p throughout most of my twenties. My personal policy was as long as I am not involved with anybody in a committed level, then it's cool. I was a failure with most of my relationships between teen years and my twenties. I made mistakes. I made stupid decisions. I showed terrible judgement. I had bad luck.

It was a combination of these various factors where p4p was my only option left for physical and emotional companionship. I once had a wonderful fiancee 5 years ago and she was once the best thing that happened to me and our lives tore us apart and after I got over her, I turned to p4p. p4p led me to a woman who reminded me of her and I have previously reviewed that girl, Kurumi from Pururungang. I even told Kurumi about her and why I repeated her numerous times. And just last fall, I found a new girlfriend and since then, I quit p4p and my current girlfriend is all I need for my emotional and physical needs. p4p at the same time was very therapeutic for me. Though I was not like that guy who went to Mexico who wanted to commit suicide after enjoying his time with coke and hookers, but I needed some "help" from "experts" on being in a relationship. I barely turned 30 and saw many of my friends starting families and I felt it was also time for me to start. I know people back home who had relationships from high school and got married right after graduation. Some lived happily ever after. Some didn't. I know some people who got married 3 times by the time they were 30!!! I knew I couldn't have that. I can't say that I'm a late bloomer, just that I had other priorities in life through most of my youth.

But going back on topic, the more I got to frequent some women, I came to them to advice. I started asking some girls, especially Kurumi, not on how to get girls to like me for me. I know "just being yourself" is important, but I wanted to know the good and bad about that and how I can exhibit myself better. I had her more than 10 times up to this point and I asked her if she introduced me to a friend, what would say she are my good and bad points. She said for my good points, she told me I was really passionate and dedicative. For my bad points, she just joked about how I dressed but being a foreigner, I could get away with dressing more simply (jeans, t-shirt and hat) than the more feminine/flashy Japanese guys. She also says most Japanese women these days in terms of athletics are more into guys who play soccer and I have done martial arts my whole life. She says some of her friends think guys like that are too old fashioned but she thinks foreign men into their culture in that aspect are cool, too. I grew up wanting to be like Jean Claude Van Damme and by the time I become an adult, chicks want jailbait dumbasses like Bieber or One Direction (I know a lot of Japanese women even in their forties that like them grrrr). Believe me, I have had Japanese chicks not wanting to go out with me because my built and background and looking muscular is gross.

And she says once women are with me in bed, then it's all good hah hah. She says she likes it when I would tell her that I love her every time we had sex and she likes I bring an emotional aspect to it. She says once women get to know me, then everything is fine and she was right! But she says Japanese women with more experience with foreigners, experience living overseas and have better English speaking ability will be more willing since overcoming certain differences in culture and society will be more smooth.

My motivations don't make me anymore right or wrong than any of you. It was just what and why I chose to do it. I know many of you are in marriages and/or committed relationships and still participate in p4p. To me, it may be wrong but I ain't gonna stop you. That's your choice and whatever consequences you face or prizes you get, that's all on you to bear. Just like how my present happiness is just between me and my current girlfriend who I really want to spend my life with.

I spent a majority of my twenties doing p4p and I had a lot of fun doing it. It is now time to move on, save money, and start a family. To me, I just want to "grow up." I feel in my mind, I did p4p for the right reasons, had my fun, now it's time to move on. I know there are some old timers her who enjoy it and that's cool. p4p led me to a lot of great opportunities and taught me what I was good at, what I could improve on, and what I was not comfortable with. p4p gave me confidence with my performance and size. I had the opportunity to be with all kinds of women from ugly looking druggies to the hottest of Japanese porn stars. Then my new girlfriend comes to my life and my reason for p4p is now gone. When it came time to make love to her, it was the greatest time of my life. Thanks to p4p, she had the greatest sex of her life and asked me how many women I had to sleep with to get this good hah hah. I even taught her some things like how Umi from Pururungang and Ayaka from Hinomaru did their blow jobs hah hah. Granted p4p really gave me the techniques, confidence and comfort, having sex with someone you love and waking up together to a very beautiful and clear morning is a different kind of un-describable sensation you can NEVER get from p4p. The way my girlfriend looks at me when we have sex is something I can never ever get from p4p. I don't have to pay 20,000 yen for 2 hours anymore. Instead, I can pay 8,000 yen for the night at a love hotel and dance the night away and make numerous calls to get the sheets replaced after drenching them. That's a thrill I can never get from p4p but p4p gave me the skills necessary to make that happen.

Maybe my p4p experience will come back to bite me in a negative way, or it may never. Either way, I am in a position in my life I want to make work. p4p will be a part of what I did in my youth, I enjoyed it, did it my way and I left the scene my way. Whether that is something to be proud of or not is up to each and everyone of us. As I said, it became a therapeutic experience for me thanks to Kurumi (who is no longer at Pururngang) who helped me get over my break up and giving me back something I lost. I can't ultimately answer whether or not is is immoral, but I just had my reasons for doing it and I felt my reasons were right for me. I can't say they are right for you or your reasons are right for me. That's all there is to it.

 

[John Chavers]

@johnnyboy84: you win the prize for best wall o' text in 2016!