Is P4p Immoral?

[Sinapse]

What I'm saying: smear lipstick on a pig and you'll still have a pig.

For-pay BroPUA "advisors" size up their fish just like some working girls do with potential Johns. That wasted money should be spent on fitness training and a personal shopper for better threads.

Is this really what you worry about at 4am?

For someone who regularly talks about how much cash he makes and is happy to throw around you seem overly concerned with what other people spend less than one monger run on.. Again, as I mentioned before you seem to have some really strong reaction formation against pickup.. A persistent little form of ego defense

And as for your point - No, if you're a virgin or can't get laid you're going to need much more than just new clothes and a gym membership (although those help). If pickup doesn't work, you're basically calling me, Solong, and millions of guys with first hand empirical evidence that it does work liars and frauds. I can introduce you to hundreds of guys in Tokyo who personally have massively turned their lives around by working on themselves and their game. Ultimately you are telling us about your personal speculation (doesn't hold much weight at all) whereas we are speaking from empirical experience (basically impossible to disprove unless you're happy calling us all liars). You'll never convince somebody that went from no lays to sex pretty much whenever they want it that it doesn't work.. It's a fools errand. You do have to implement some pretty deep changes and get rid of a lot of mental baggage first, but it definitely can be done. Is it easy or will it happen over night? No. Is it worth it? Absolutely.

Let's get back to the topic, which is P4p and morality.. as the moderators are clearly trying to make happen.

 

[Chocoballs]

Let's make it happen First the definition of morality.
Moral = "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character"

So what is Dorian Gray's logic?
1. "I believe that p4p creates a distorted and somewhat unwholesome view of human relationships and sexual interactions"

P4P: immoral because it creates a wrong idea of relationships with women
PUA: moral because it creates a right idea of relationships with women

I highly doubt that paying for a BJ makes someone think that every woman is prostitute.
For many guys the goal of PUA is to sleep with many women. Hump and dump doesn't sound very moral. And in some of the PUA literature guys learn that "every woman is a whore except for two of them: Your mother and your sister".

2. "encouraging people to game rather than p4p seems more moral to me,
because confident, satisfied, empowered dudes are generally more attractive to women"

I see no relation between being attractive to women and morality. It sounds as logical as saying "taking cooking classes is more moral than P4P because good cooks are more attractive to women."

 

[Sinapse]

Let's make it happen First the definition of morality.
Moral = "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character"

So what is Dorian Gray's logic?
1. "I believe that p4p creates a distorted and somewhat unwholesome view of human relationships and sexual interactions"

P4P: immoral because it creates a wrong idea of relationships with women
PUA: moral because it creates a right idea of relationships with women

I highly doubt that paying for a BJ makes someone think that every woman is prostitute.
For many guys the goal of PUA is to sleep with many women. Hump and dump doesn't sound very moral. And in some of the PUA literature guys learn that "every woman is a whore except for two of them: Your mother and your sister".

2. "encouraging people to game rather than p4p seems more moral to me,
because confident, satisfied, empowered dudes are generally more attractive to women"

I see no relation between being attractive to women and morality. It sounds as logical as saying "taking cooking classes is more moral than P4P because good cooks are more attractive to women."

I can't speak for Dorian and he's not in the country atm, but personally I wouldn't consider P4P "immoral" at all, nor would I say people shouldn't use it. My criticism is this:

I think it's regrettable if a guy feels his ONLY option is p4p. I think that guys should have a wealth of options, of which p4p can be one if they like. If this is the case and they patronize p4p I think that's totally fine. But if they go there out of perceived necessity I think they are selling themselves short by telling themselves (subconsciously or consciously) that no girl would be attracted to them.

It also seems to me that the main appeal for p4p is on the function of sex and not the person with whom you have sex (you choose who you sleep with based on how they look, not who they are). This, to me, smacks of fulfilling a utilitarian need without much care or interest in the woman in front of you (or, if you care about the woman in front of you its an incidental and unexpected bonus coming from the date before the sex rather than a requirement.. meaning, even if you have no affinity with the provider, you are still going to have sex). I think therefore, my main (personal, not moral) objection with p4p is that it seems to be the epitome of objectifying women. So much so that it would be difficult for me to do. No matter how hot a girl is - if I'm not interested in her as a person it's very difficult for me to sleep with her.

I might be able to partake in p4p if there was a situation like a party room or some of those Japanese deai cafe style things where I got to talk to a few of them and then choose the one which interested me the most, then pay her. Paying based on a photo book or pictures on the internet doesn't sit well with me because JUST a pretty body isn't enough to merit spending money (again, personal opinion). To me, sex has no monetary value and is so abundant that it would seem silly to pay for it, just as it would seem silly to pay for air or outrageous to privatize water.

In short, it seems to be accepting sex from a woman and valuing women solely based on her physical attributes, which seems like the ultimate in objectification. If guys are okay with that, then that's fine I suppose. I personally am not a fan of treating women like objects (despite what knee jerk detractors might imagine about me)

Second, sex is abundant if you want it to be, which makes it not "immoral" but perhaps a bit silly or unnecessary to spend money on it (personally). I would probably think differently if I were married (and my wife agreed with me going to p4p but not having a normal girlfriend) and had buckets of cash and very very little free time (presumably because I was doing other productive things in that time that I value more)

 

[Chocoballs]

It also seems to me that the main appeal for XXX is on the function of sex and not the person with whom you have sex (you choose who you sleep with based on how they look, not who they are). This, to me, smacks of fulfilling a utilitarian need without much care or interest in the woman in front of you (or, if you care about the woman in front of you its an incidental and unexpected bonus coming from the date before the sex rather than a requirement.. meaning, even if you have no affinity with the provider, you are still going to have sex). I think therefore, my main (personal, not moral) objection with XXX is that it seems to be the epitome of objectifying women.

I think in your argument you could easily replace XXX with PUA. If I want to pickup a girl in a bar or a club I can't honestly say that I care that much about their personality.

 

[Sinapse]

I think in your argument you could easily replace XXX with PUA. If I want to pickup a girl in a bar or a club I can't honestly say that I care that much about their personality.

I understand that, but I don't think it's predicated in the method. In other words, some guys pickup just because they want a wet hole.. And I think that's still coming from a place of sexual scarcity and not particularly "evolved", but I still understand how that's where guys start.. Trying to get whatever girl will go home with them. Other guys pick up because they are looking for affinity and chemistry, and even if it's a really hot girl who wants to bang right then and there, they won't go through with it if there is no chemistry there. This is coming from a place of sexual abundance - the act of sex and the physical form of the female is not the be all end all goal. Almost magically, if you can switch yourself to think this way, you'll attract much higher quality, attractive women since they sense you're not bedazzled by their physical appearance like literally every other male. They will want you because you don't want them for the reason that everyone else has wanted them their whole life without any effort on their part.

With p4p, it pretty much always seems like it is 100% decided by the physicality of the woman. If you end up liking her that's a nice and unexpected bonus. Even if you don't like her personally (though you do hear about guys being upset about the physical appearance of prostitutes vs their pictures), you fork over the cash and she puts out.

 

[Wwanderer]

In short, it seems to be accepting sex from a woman and valuing women solely based on her physical attributes, which seems like the ultimate in objectification. If guys are okay with that, then that's fine I suppose. I personally am not a fan of treating women like objects (despite what knee jerk detractors might imagine about me)

Howis buying sex from a woman different than buying all sorts of services from people in general? Is a barber being treated as an object when a customer buys a haircut from him/her? Is a doctor being objectified when a patient buys a medical examination and treatment from him/her? Is a chef being... Well, you get the idea.

-Ww

 

[John Chavers]

Is this really what you worry about at 4am?

Not all who wander are lost

For someone who regularly talks about how much cash he makes and is happy to throw around you seem overly concerned with what other people spend less than one monger run on.. Again, as I mentioned before you seem to have some really strong reaction formation against pickup.. A persistent little form of ego defense

Whose ego? I'll never P4A from a PUAtard.

If pickup doesn't work, you're basically calling me, Solong, and millions of guys with first hand empirical evidence that it does work liars and frauds.

I'd use the word "hucksters" rather than frauds.

I can introduce you to hundreds of guys in Tokyo...

Dear lord, it's the PUApocalypse.



I was wrong about TeamPUA being a modern version of "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels". They're more like The Walrus and the Carpenter:

 

[bruv]

I understand that, but I don't think it's predicated in the method. In other words, some guys pickup just because they want a wet hole.. And I think that's still coming from a place of sexual scarcity and not particularly "evolved", but I still understand how that's where guys start.. Trying to get whatever girl will go home with them. Other guys pick up because they are looking for affinity and chemistry, and even if it's a really hot girl who wants to bang right then and there, they won't go through with it if there is no chemistry there. This is coming from a place of sexual abundance - the act of sex and the physical form of the female is not the be all end all goal.

Yo it'd be worth elaborating on this part cuz I'm not sure I agree with it. Sex IS a biological need. And men dont NEED any affinity or rapore with a girl to get theirs.. or to even enjoy it while they do. Chemistry can absolutely just be physical. I don't agree that picking up a chick in a bar purely based on physical attraction comes from scarcity, although just trying to get ANY girl is. And yeah, neither is especially 'evolved'.. actually its caveman as it gets

 

[bruv]

Howis buying sex from a woman different than buying all sorts of services from people in general? Is a barber being treated as an object when a customer buys a haircut from him/her? Is a doctor being objectified when a patient buys a medical examination and treatment from him/her? Is a chef being... Well, you get the idea.

-Ww

This makes no sense. The girl herself is a huge part of what you're buying, not just the service she provides. Otherwise that suggestion Alice made a while back of not being able to pick your prostitutes and getting fucked by a 65year old would totally work. But it dont.

 

[John Chavers]

@Wwanderer: TeamPUA's posts on TAG are just glorified ads for their "services". I'd lump them in with Ashley-Madison and those other sakura-infested deai sites: preying on the weak and lonely, promising dreams and delivering nothing but empty wallets.

 

[Sinapse]

Yo it'd be worth elaborating on this part cuz I'm not sure I agree with it. Sex IS a biological need. And men dont NEED any affinity or rapore with a girl to get theirs.. or to even enjoy it while they do. Chemistry can absolutely just be physical. I don't agree that picking up a chick in a bar purely based on physical attraction comes from scarcity, although just trying to get ANY girl is. And yeah, neither is especially 'evolved'.. actually its caveman as it gets

Sex is a physical need, and if you need to fulfill it you need to fulfill it and sure, get it where you can. But, don't delude yourself into thinking that random hookup with the mediocre girl is your ideal situation. It's the same if you're a parched guy coming out of the desert, you'd probably drink from a mud puddle and be grateful for that mud puddle. But if you live by a waterfall, no way you're drinking from a mud puddle. Similarly, no way you're paying for bottled water if you have the source right there whenever you want it.

I mostly just mean that after you have a LOT of sex with a LOT of random women and can get it pretty much wherever, you're not going to jump on any random girl who gives you flirty eyes. Your needs are already filled. You think "Ok, she looks pretty good. What else does she have going for her?"

The great paradox is if you aren't so "thirsty" that you immediately want sex with every girl who looks at you, a LOT more girls will start throwing themselves at you simply because you aren't 100% sold just if they are DTF or hot.

 

[Chocoballs]

I think it's regrettable if a guy feels his ONLY option is p4p. I think that guys should have a wealth of options, of which p4p can be one if they like. If this is the case and they patronize p4p I think that's totally fine. But if they go there out of perceived necessity I think they are selling themselves short by telling themselves (subconsciously or consciously) that no girl would be attracted to them.

Reality is that for many guys P4P is the only option. In that case I don't see it as a problem, actually it is a temporary solution.

Second, sex is abundant if you want it to be, which makes it not "immoral" but perhaps a bit silly or unnecessary to spend money on it (personally).

If PUA helps guys meeting girls then it's great but as you posted before, 95% of the guys can't get over the fear of rejection. From your point of view sex is abundant but for many that just isn't realistic.

Also how big is the chance that a normal guy can sleep with a really beautiful woman? Let's say on a scale of 1 to 10 the average looking person is a 5 and someone who is attractive is 7 and above. For 95% of the guys who cannot pick up they just have to hope to get lucky. This also means that 70% of the guys are married to a not so attractive lady. P4P seems like a reasonable solution to fulfill a guy's fantasy.

 

[Sinapse]

@Wwanderer: TeamPUA's posts on TAG are just glorified ads for their "services". I'd lump them in with Ashley-Madison and those other sakura-infested deai sites: preying on the weak and lonely, promising dreams and delivering nothing but empty wallets.

You're free to talk with ANY of the alumni if you like. Also, not sure why you're lumping @Solong in with me, I've never met him nor is any of what he does related to me nor does he get anything from it. Pickup guys are interested in helping other guys because they believe in it.

Trust me dude, if you think I'm doing this for the money, you are reaaaaaaally undervaluing my time. This amount of time put into nearly anything else would be worth WAAAY more money.

 

[John Chavers]

P4P seems like a reasonable solution to fulfill a guy's fantasy.

Exactly. What do you get from paying a BroPUA other than a lighter wallet and dashed hopes?

 

[John Chavers]

why you're lumping @Solong in with me, I've never met him nor is any of what he does related to me nor does he get anything from it.

He gets validation. For the longest time he was the lone voice in the wilderness for this crap on TAG: now he has a posse of fellow travelers, all singing the praises of formulated seduction-in-a-can.

 

[bruv]

Sex is a physical need, and if you need to fulfill it you need to fulfill it and sure, get it where you can. But, don't delude yourself into thinking that random hookup with the mediocre girl is your ideal situation. It's the same if you're a parched guy coming out of the desert, you'd probably drink from a mud puddle and be grateful for that mud puddle. But if you live by a waterfall, no way you're drinking from a mud puddle. Similarly, no way you're paying for bottled water if you have the source right there whenever you want it.

I mostly just mean that after you have a LOT of sex with a LOT of random women and can get it pretty much wherever, you're not going to jump on any random girl who gives you flirty eyes. Your needs are already filled. You think "Ok, she looks pretty good. What else does she have going for her?"

The great paradox is if you aren't so "thirsty" that you immediately want sex with every girl who looks at you, a LOT more girls will start throwing themselves at you simply because you aren't 100% sold just if they are DTF or hot.

No doubt. worse than fucking a medicore girl is having a wavering set of personal standards.

 

[Solong]

Howis buying sex from a woman different than buying all sorts of services from people in general? Is a barber being treated as an object when a customer buys a haircut from him/her? Is a doctor being objectified when a patient buys a medical examination and treatment from him/her? Is a chef being... Well, you get the idea.

-Ww

So a woman's body is an object to be bought and sold?

This again hurts the argument on P4P, not helps it.

 

[Solong]

Not all who wander are lost


Whose ego? I'll never P4A from a PUAtard. [emoji38]


I'd use the word "hucksters" rather than frauds.


Dear lord, it's the PUApocalypse.



I was wrong about TeamPUA being a modern version of "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels". They're more like The Walrus and the Carpenter:

You just went all out into insults and attacks. That's not even necessary or about having a discussion.

 

[Wwanderer]

So a woman's body is an object to be bought and sold?

This again hurts the argument on P4P, not helps it.

C'mon now, you can do better (and know better, I imagine) than that!

Sex is NOT equal to body. It is an activity, among many many others, that one does with one's body. You do not own someone's body when you have sex with them, not even temporarily and no matter whether it is p4p or np4p.

People sell an endless array of physical activities performed with their bodies, from dancing to digging ditches, from cutting hair to cooking food, from grooming to guarding, etc. Why is selling and buying sex morally different from selling and buying any other physical labor/activity (assuming it is done consensually)?

-Ww

 

[MossBoss]

Whose ego? I'll never P4A from a PUAtard.

The trouble with PUA guys is that they are often hoisted by their own putards.

hoist with one's own putards.
Fig. to be harmed or disadvantaged by an action of one's own which was meant to harm someone else. (From a line in Shakespeare's Hamlet.)

 

[John Chavers]

The trouble with PUA guys is that they are often hoisted by their own putards

Considering their pitiful published success rates, they should just show up and say, "I'm a walking, talking, foreign fashion accessory!"

They'd probably land just as many 3's and 4's as they currently are with their performance "art".

 

[Dorian Gray]

Lots of interesting thoughts coming up here. As Wwanderer suspected, I was away for the holidays. I'll address as much of this as I can, but to try and forestall as much potential outrage as I can, I should make it clear that I'm not campaigning to take away your right to paid sex, just offering my own take on it.

Yes, because tons of one night stands are somehow more emotionally fulfilling and "authentic" than tons of one night stands with sugar babies or escorts? I don't really see the difference. In my opinion they are both existences that are pretty empty emotionally.

For some people, yes, they are much more emotionally fulfilling and authentic. p4p fans are free to not feel degraded by paying money for something other men can get for free. I'll take my free sex, street adventures and self-improvement.

What I did say was that it just seeemed odd to name yourself after him when your thing seems to be picking up women specifically, from what I understand. It's as if I had called myself Mother Teresa, who died a virgin.

Are you American? Because I sense great literalism in you…lol. Serious, should I have called myself Commander Cock or Kanto Casanova or something? That would have been both silly and boring. Fin de siecle literature is a common touchstone for people concerned with realizing what others around them would consider an excess of desire.

cheesy line...Not even mentioning catcalling, every comment on my body is gonna get ignored, even if a hottie makes it. Dont come with "you're asking for it with those clothes", i'm not gonna be angry at you for enjoying the view but nobody asked for your unwanted comment.

Yup, bad game doesn't work. Good game works.

Girls dont have to retire young and you dont get to choose your girl, so you could get hooked up with some 65 years old or something. Alternatively there could be "private clinics" with only hot girls for very high prices not govenment controlled.

I don't understand why people don't get to choose? Everyone is free to pursue the objects of their desire. And yes, 65 year old women are included in this. If they want to pursue younger men (or anyone), it doesn't make sense to look down on them.

The second part I object to strongly on moral grounds, because it privileges "hot" girls and assigns them a higher commodity value, which, yeah...no.

Why i'd think the girl should be randomly set up with a guy?
Because now prostitutes have to retire at a young age because it gets more and more difficult when you get old to find customers and your price get lower to a point that you cant live off it.

Well, that's capitalism, I suppose.

As far as I understand, Sinapse and Dorian Gray think that every man (and woman) wants to have huge amounts of sex and it is only natural to pursue this path using their methods. Paying for sex is pointless, because you can get it for free.

Yes.

And in some of the PUA literature guys learn that "every woman is a whore except for two of them: Your mother and your sister".

lol wut...

If PUA helps guys meeting girls then it's great but as you posted before, 95% of the guys can't get over the fear of rejection. From your point of view sex is abundant but for many that just isn't realistic.

If you're afraid of rejection you're not free and not living your desires honestly. Helping people overcome their fear and achieve what they want to achieve seems moral to me.

Also how big is the chance that a normal guy can sleep with a really beautiful woman? Let's say on a scale of 1 to 10 the average looking person is a 5 and someone who is attractive is 7 and above. For 95% of the guys who cannot pick up they just have to hope to get lucky. This also means that 70% of the guys are married to a not so attractive lady. P4P seems like a reasonable solution to fulfill a guy's fantasy.

This kind of thinking is pretty common among people who aren't familiar with game or think that it's "cheesy pickup lines" or whatever. You'd laugh at some of the conventionally "ugly" men I've seen who went on to get with their ideal girls. On the flip side, I've seen "ugly" or seemingly unexceptional women score rich, "good-looking" younger men (yes, women can game too). So, Chocoballs...I'd challenge you to expand your definition of what seems possible.

Anyway, hope everyone enjoyed the holidays!

 

[MacMackerson]

Ok - going back on my earlier statement about abandoning this thread.

The thread should honestly be named 'Is PUA more moral than P4P?' which is actually closer to the original quote that sinapse posted. Obviously the PUA guys think so and P4Pers are basically saying 'that is the pot calling the kettle black'. I don't have much opinion on the answer or even find the question very interesting although the back and forth was certainly a good read. I am glad the thread was reopened and the off topic nannying was minimal.

 

[MacMackerson]

Also, I found @User#8628 post about the utopian system interesting. Guys of course complain about the idea of randomly getting assigned a 65 year old but from Alice's perspective that is kind of how it works for her when she opens the hotel door!

I wouldn't want a 65 year old but if she handed me 50K yen before we started I wouldn't complain! In my modified utopian system the older of the pair pays no matter which gender.

...the female population of Mactopia might be low though haha

Actually one of the positive things about P4P is it is a wealth transfer from older men (relatively well off group) to younger women (relatively poorer).

 

[Midlife Crisis]

In the end it seems like we're comparing apples and oranges... between rabid apple fans and rabid orange fans who really dislike the other fruit.

Seriously though, if we take the PUA people at their word that PUA at its best is an equal activity that sexually liberates both men and women with little negative consequences, and we accept the idea that most P4P in developed nations is a relatively fair and consensual exchange of services for money, then there isn't really much to argue about.

Likewise, in the worst-case examples of PUA (harassment or sexual assault) or P4P (sex-trafficking, monetary exploitation) both sides are also equally against these things.

Through all these debates, the one consistent belief expressed by all the PUA guys that still really bothers me is their discounting P4P sex as "real". Fundamentally, I think this means they disagree with the idea that sex can be a service. And the two main arguments from PUA to support this opinion is that P4P lacks a real personal connection and/because it requires little or no effort, besides paying, to get it.

Yes, real intimacy and personal connection is hard to find in most P4P, but why would this discount it as "real" sex? Everyday all over the world people hook-up for purely sexual ONS without intimacy or real connection. Is this not "real" sex? Conversely, there are countless examples of P4P regulars who visit the same service providers, sometimes for many years, because they have found some real connections sexually and usually personally too. Is this not "real" sex? Who has to right to decide if another person's sexual experience is "real" or not?

And that brings me to the second point. It seems like most PUA guys feel they have a right to judge such things because they see themselves as having special skills, knowledge, and "truly" understand and/or care about women they're trying to pick up. In fact, they often attempt to portray P4P guys as "jealous" for paying for something PUA guys can get for "free". As with PUA, P4P is not a single, homogeneous group. There are probably some guys who pay because they have no other choice and wish they could be PUA (but why would they then hate on PUA?). But based my experience and on the TAG membership (including providers), this does not seem to be the majority of P4P guys. For most P4P guys, this is a convenient and valuable service in their lives. That's all. And to contrast P4P with PUA is just silly and shows a real lack of understanding of "the oldest profession in the world" (catering to one of the oldest desires in the world). P4P sex is not usually like PUA sex, but it still is sex. And let's not forget that within the vast realm of human sexuality, PUA and P4P combined would only represent a tiny fraction of it.