Through all these debates, the one consistent belief expressed by all the PUA guys that still really bothers me is their discounting P4P sex as "real". Fundamentally, I think this means they disagree with the idea that sex can be a service. And the two main arguments from PUA to support this opinion is that P4P lacks a real personal connection and/because it requires little or no effort, besides paying, to get it.
p4p sex is very real! I don't even know what non-real sex would be! Maybe VR or porn or something..
I agree that sex can be and is a service, and I agree that people should be allowed to offer and desire it. My only problem, as I've stated before, is if a guy thinks it's his
only option. As for the "personal connection" bit that's just a personal qualm. I
personally can't have sex with someone based SOLELY on their looks, and I think it's over-inflating the value of the person (based only on physicality) when in reality that person is "worth" no more as a human being than anyone else. Sex is so abundant that I can't imagine paying for it just because a girl looks this way or that.. However, again this is in no way meant to tell other people what to do! If they want to pay for a girl based only on their physical appearance, why not?
As for providers.. well, if you can get money for it, sounds like a great deal to me, especially if you're naturally a very sexual person and can mentally enjoy or at least tolerate whoever comes through the door. Providers, especially the ones on this site who are independent (and thus totally consensual and separate from the Yaks) should be celebrated -- as should any woman who is comfortable and free with her sexuality.
It seems like most PUA guys feel they have a right to judge such things because they see themselves as having special skills, knowledge, and "truly" understand and/or care about women they're trying to pick up. In fact, they often attempt to portray P4P guys as "jealous" for paying for something PUA guys can get for "free". As with PUA, P4P is not a single, homogeneous group. There are probably some guys who pay because they have no other choice and wish they could be PUA (but why would they then hate on PUA?). But based my experience and on the TAG membership (including providers), this does not seem to be the majority of P4P guys. For most P4P guys, this is a convenient and valuable service in their lives. That's all. And to contrast P4P with PUA is just silly and shows a real lack of understanding of "the oldest profession in the world" (catering to one of the oldest desires in the world). P4P sex is not usually like PUA sex, but it still is sex. And let's not forget that within the vast realm of human sexuality, PUA and P4P combined would only represent a tiny fraction of it.
I agree here, and I've mentioned before that I think p4p for married career-based guys makes sense as a way to get sexual variety outside of their committed relationship.
Interesting, I think, how in another thread a certain couple people were getting on my case for not telling girls IMMEDIATELY that I was not planning on being monogamous with them ("It's
DECEPTION"), when they in other threads defended married men going to prostitutes.
For a PUA teacher to call P4P immoral just seems a little hypocritical
I don't think p4p is 'immoral' in the classical sense. I think sex as a commodity is a bit disappointing, perhaps (as would making air or rainwater a commodity owned by a certain elite group, as I mentioned before). Immoral? No.
As for the whole "you guys make money from this so you have no ground to talk" argument..
@Dorian Gray is pretty much always talking about doing bootcamps for free to whoever wants (he believes nanpa should be free and open, like art), but alas the taxman cometh, and there's a certain righteous irony in paying the Japan tax-man with proceeds from having sex with spritely teens and spreading the word on how to do it. As for myself, I gave away advice for a LONG time before ever asking a penny for it (and only got into coaching after being requested to by the owner of Jlair and all the "old guard" veterans who tagged me as the guy who knew his shit the best and should be coaching with DG).. AND paying for coaching is not mandatory as I've said before (it does shave a LOT of time off the learning curve, though..). If people think we put all this time and effort into it because of the money... let me squash those claims right now. There's nowhere near enough money in this to make it worth it given how many hours we have put into this. We do it because we love seeing guys improve and progress - as nearly all do.
In short, as an apple-lover, I don't really hate the oranges at all, and support people who want to eat so! But I LOVE the apples so much that I've become quite the connossieur
Seriously though, if we take the PUA people at their word that PUA at its best is an equal activity that sexually liberates both men and women with little negative consequences, and we accept the idea that most P4P in developed nations is a relatively fair and consensual exchange of services for money, then there isn't really much to argue about.
Likewise, in the worst-case examples of PUA (harassment or sexual assault) or P4P (sex-trafficking, monetary exploitation) both sides are also equally against these things.
This is perhaps the most on-point thing anyone's said yet!