Am I Harassing A Girl By Approaching Her On The Street?

[Sinapse]

One of the most common objections and worries from either guys outside the nanpa world, or guys who are just beginning, is worrying about harassing random girls on the street.

I agree, this is a big issue. The easiest way to avoid harassing a girl is to not touch her at all, keep a respectful distance while still close enough to talk, and remain calm. If she blows you out or ignores you, resist the temptation to lash out and call her "ugly" or a "bitch". This is just your ego talking, and you lashing out at her is not only weak behavior, but makes it also everybody feel bad. Additionally, don't be too obnoxiously persistent. The first time a girl says "no thank you", she often simply thinks you are selling something or are a "catch" or "tout" working for a scouting company, talent agency, or even izakaya. It's okay to stick in a little bit and clear up any confusion, but if she repeatedly tells you to leave or that she is not interested, don't fight it and bow out. If I'm blown out I always try to make a point of saying something like "Have a nice day" or "たのしんで". Leaving the girl with a slightly positive impression, even if she's not interested, is keeping the ecosystem healthy. Too much pollution by bad energy isn't good for anyone, and I'm a pretty positive dude in general.

Girls in general don't mind being approached (ladies, feel free to chime in here on your perspectives - I'd love to hear them!). Rather, they don't like being approached when the approach is fake, overly cocky, too weak/shy, or aggressive/persistent. If you rock up to her confident but humble, honest yet direct and respectful of her personal space and boundaries, and if you go in with neutral to positive energy, she won't feel harassed, and will be far more open to hearing what you have to say. Many women would love nothing more than a self-assured man on his purpose in life to come up to her with a sense of curiosity and intrigue into her life and world.

I recently came across a Twitter user @kaedenanpahihyo https://twitter.com/kaedenanpahihyo?lang=en. She is a girl who tweets advice and criticism of nanpa techniques for the purpose of making nanpa guys better at their craft. Her profile reads:
すてきなナンパ師を増やすためにナンパ方法を批評しています。モテたい、積極的に女性と関わりたい男性は是非ご覧ください
In short, "I offer criticism and advice for the purpose of increasing lovely nanpa guys. Guys who want to proactively connect with girls, please have a look."

If you read a bunch of her texts, her focus is on weeding out the weak, creepy, overly aggressive approaches, and replacing them with honest, funny, interesting approaches which actually hook the girl.

Here are a few examples:

ダメな声がけトップ３：第２位　弱々しく声をかけてくる。自信ないなら始めから声かけてくんな。と思われる
Bad approach top 3, #2: Too weak. If you have no confidence, girls think "Don't even talk to me!"

Harsh! But true..

好感をもてた声がけランキングトップ３：第１位　トークが面白くてもっと話していたいと感じた。
Good impression technique top 3, #1: The conversation was funny and I felt like I wanted to talk more.

Anyway, her page is full of this kind of thing. If you're interested, take a look. I think it's always cool to get the perspective of another girl who enjoys a solid nanpa approach like fine wine. An approach truly can brighten someone's day, if done correctly.

 

[TAG Manager]

Thanks for the share - this may be worth a read over lunch.

 

[Lighthouse]

When I'm out picking up, I found that tapping them on the shoulder as I open the conversation works best, or if when I approach head-on then its good to get your mouth moving like 5 steps before you actually intersect with her and stop right in front of her and continue talking. I don't think I'm very skilled in Japanese humor, because my Japanese is terrible, but I still manage to get by. Also, I don't think the funny and friendly works all the time, because it all depends on the context of the pickup.

 

[Wwanderer]

Girls in general don't mind being approached

I had missed this thread previously. I was (literally) at sea when it was started.

I think the question in its title is a very good one that anyone trying cold PUA should think about carefully.

I don't know if what you say in the above quote is true or not, in large part because I am not sure what you mean by "in general". I also don''t see how you could even know how most of the women who you fail to pick up (the significant majority if I understand you correctly) feel about you approaching them. It is hard to picture many of them hanging around and taking the trouble to have a heart-to-heart chat with you on their reaction/feelings to/about being PUA targets.

I know for sure is that it bothers at least some women...makes them feel annoyed, angry or even threatened. I know because some of them have told me so, and I have heard women talk about it to each other, both in-person and online. In fact just in the last few days one woman I know well described PUA to me as "just awful".

There's also the article I also linked in the other thread:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/12/pua-pick-up-artists-julien-blanc-dapper-laughs
I get the feeling that the article's author (female) does not like being approached by PUAs; don't you?

Then there is all this talk among PUAs on TAG about Japanese women who "panic" and sometimes "flee" from cold PUA attempts. It seems to be a fairly common reaction If something causes a person to panic or flee, isn't it a major hint that they don't like it?

In short, I think the answer to the question in the subject line is definitely, "Yes, at least in some cases." I can easily imagine that there are other women who are indifferent and others still who like it.

I think @Solong would phrase my point something like this, "Let's not deny that PUA can harass women."

-Ww

 

[Solong]

I had missed this thread previously. I was (literally) at sea when it was started.

I think the question in its title is a very good one that anyone trying cold PUA should think about carefully.

I don't know if what you say in the above quote is true or not, in large part because I am not sure what you mean by "in general". I also don''t see how you could even know how most of the women who you fail to pick up (the significant majority if I understand you correctly) feel about you approaching them. It is hard to picture many of them hanging around and taking the trouble to have a heart-to-heart chat with you on their reaction/feelings to/about being PUA targets.

I know for sure is that it bothers at least some women...makes them feel annoyed, angry or even threatened. I know because some of them have told me so, and I have heard women talk about it to each other, both in-person and online. In fact just in the last few days one woman I know well described PUA to me as "just awful".

There's also the article I also linked in the other thread:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/12/pua-pick-up-artists-julien-blanc-dapper-laughs
I get the feeling that the article's author (female) does not like being approached by PUAs; don't you?

Then there is all this talk among PUAs on TAG about Japanese women who "panic" and sometimes "flee" from cold PUA attempts. It seems to be a fairly common reaction If something causes a person to panic or flee, isn't it a major hint that they don't like it?

In short, I think the answer to the question in the subject line is definitely, "Yes, at least in some cases." I can easily imagine that there are other women who are indifferent and others still who like it.

I think @Solong would phrase my point something like this, "Let's not deny that PUA can harass women."

-Ww

So, men shouldn't talk to women? People shouldn't talk to other people and we should perceive all interactions as threatening or unwanted? I hope that's not the ludicrous end point of your position.

And about pulling things from the Internet to support your bias opinions. Which you already mentioned your bias against men approaching women for a conversation and your lack of understanding of PUA... Since when does Julien Blanc represent all PUAs? Oh nevermind, don't let that inconvenience get in the way.

So if men are only suppose to buy women, you do know many women are against prostitution? Seems like a no win situation. You can't approach women nor can you buy them, so I guess the human race should split into gay and lesbian camps, never to mix.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/04/11/prostitution/
(Sex Slavery & Women Having No Choice)

And are you going to attack all the PUA threads now, and should the PUAs attack all the prostitution threads?

 

[Wwanderer]

So, men shouldn't talk to women? People shouldn't talk to other people and we should perceive all interactions as threatening or unwanted? I hope that's not the ludicrous end point of your position.

And about pulling things from the Internet to support your bias opinions. Which you already mentioned your bias against men approaching women for a conversation and your lack of understanding of PUA... Since when does Julien Blanc represent all PUAs? Oh nevermind, don't let that inconvenience get in the way.

So if men are only suppose to buy women, you do know many women are against prostitution? Seems like a no win situation. You can't approach women nor can you buy them, so I guess the human race should split into gay and lesbian camps, never to mix.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/04/11/prostitution/
(Sex Slavery & Women Having No Choice)

And are you going to attack all the PUA threads now, and should the PUAs attack all the prostitution threads?

Whoa! Please try not to feel too defensive or threatened. My post doesn't attack anything, does it? It simply attempts to answer the questions posed by the OP in the title of the thread, and that is all it does.

The ONLY thing the post even suggests, in its second line, is that PUAs *think* about the issue.

And, obviously, the fact that something one does bothers some people does NOT necessarily mean that one ought to stop doing it. Pretty much anything one does, even just existing, bothers some people. To make an absurd example, it bothers some Japanese to even see gaijin in Japan...even in the distance! So should we all leave? No, of course not. Besides, if we did, that would bother other Japanese people; many love having us here...many literally love us. (I've also heard complaints from women that men don't approach them, try too pick them up, enough. So it is sort of similar.) Or for another example, the existence of a swinging lifestyle bothers some people, but I'm certainly not about to stop it.

Nevertheless, if there is something I do that I could stop doing (or do less or do differently) that bothers people, especially if it is something I am doing to them, as opposed to something that has no direct effect on them except that they dislike it, then I'd want to know how many it bothers, how much it bothers them, in what ways it bothers them, why it bothers them etc to the extent possible. Knowing lets me take it into account in my own behavior according to my own judgement. Obvious I'd think.

And, though irrelevant to this thread, I agree that the existence of horrible horrible sex slavery (which is unquestionably vastly worse for its victims than PUA is for anyone) is something that all mongers should think about and consider in deciding what p4p they will and won't do. Also btw, it is a topic much discussed on a lot of p4p boards and by many mongers.

That it was @Sinapse who wondered (aloud) if he is harassing women speaks well of him imo. Whether or not it influences his PUA behavior, he at least isn't ignoring the issue.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

Yeah, "harassment" is something to think about, but it doesn't really prohibit anything.

Think about all the ways you are "harassed" on the street:

-touts for izakayas
-homeless people
-those annoying Filipina women who run around scamming people for money to give to "orphans"
-loud speakers from right-wing rallies, electronics shops, trucks driving around advertising boy bands, manga cafes, and pickup service for old appliances.

In short, Japan is a high-harassment society. But this is their right, no matter whether we like it or not.

So assuming nanpa is your right (it is),and assuming some portion of women actually ENJOY meeting cool, high-quality dudes (they do), then what are ways in which we can make it not really that harassing. Well, I've laid them out (you conveniently edited out the conservative part of my post in your quote of me, but I'll repost it here):

The easiest way to avoid harassing a girl is to not touch her at all, keep a respectful distance while still close enough to talk, and remain calm. If she blows you out or ignores you, resist the temptation to lash out and call her "ugly" or a "bitch". This is just your ego talking, and you lashing out at her is not only weak behavior, but makes it also everybody feel bad. Additionally, don't be too obnoxiously persistent.

Girls in general don't mind being approached (ladies, feel free to chime in here on your perspectives - I'd love to hear them!). Rather, they don't like being approached when the approach is fake, overly cocky, too weak/shy, or aggressive/persistent.

I think most of the bad experiences and conditioned reflex to run is because they have been picked up in the past by aggressive, verbally abusive, shitsukoi, touchy nampa guys AND/OR the huge amount of weird/scammy guys who are out in the streets recruiting for prositution, AV, kyaba, and other night/sex work. In short, the honest, respectful nanpa guys are bundled together with the terrible nanpa guys and the scammy catches.

On top of that, nanpa guys generally ARE after a special girl (or two), and believe it or not, we do make (some) women quite happy. If out of 100 approaches, 5 run away and feel "harassed" and 10 feel grateful and happy they got to meet an awesome guy, should we stop talking to women altogether? Seems like in terms of "net societal happiness" nanpa is in general a positive.

Finally, we should be careful to listen too much to self-descriptive accounts from women operating in a society where them partaking in casual sex is looked down upon. In other words, in a slut-shaming society, it's no surprise that women publicly denounce options for casual sex (nanpa). This is akin to women saying they are "chaste" and "pure" or "Aren't that kind of girl" to the nice guy salaryman Sasuke a day after getting banged raw in the back of a Oraora-kei Ryotaro's van last night. This type of contradiction between what women say and do is common. Don't misinterpret what I say to be an insult to women. Rather, it's an indictment of a judgmental society who can't handle the reality of female promiscuity. If you want more accurate verbal reporting of the female experience, the society as a whole needs to celebrate sexually adventurous women, not chastise them.

Additionally, talking to lots of Japanese women you will hear them berate "草食男子" and pine for the days of olde when the "肉食男子" roamed free in Japan. There are a lot of reasons for the turn towards "vegetarian" guys (which I wanted to discuss in the "Sexless women of Japan" thread, but it blew up into a big argument and got locked before I could comment), but regardless of the reason, it's pretty clear that this trend (which also exists in the West) is not attractive to most women. In short, women WANT men to be masculine, proactive, and unapologetically pursue sex. They can't come out and say explicitly that they like casual sex, but when presented with the no-strings attached option for a cool, well-put together guy who talks well and has his life under control, is it such a surprise that they gratefully take him up on it?

 

[Solong]

Whoa! Please try not to feel too defensive or threatened. My post doesn't attack anything, does it? It simply attempts to answer the questions posed by the OP in the title of the thread, and that is all it does.

The ONLY thing the post even suggests, in its second line, is that PUAs *think* about the issue.

And, obviously, the fact that something one does bothers some people does NOT necessarily mean that one ought to stop doing it. Pretty much anything one does, even just existing, bothers some people. To make an absurd example, it bothers some Japanese to even see gaijin in Japan...even in the distance! So should we all leave? No, of course not. Besides, if we did, that would bother other Japanese people; many love having us here...many literally love us. (I've also heard complaints from women that men don't approach them, try too pick them up, enough. So it is sort of similar.) Or for another example, the existence of a swinging lifestyle bothers some people, but I'm certainly not about to stop it.

Nevertheless, if there is something I do that I could stop doing (or do less or do differently) that bothers people, especially if it is something I am doing to them, as opposed to something that has no direct effect on them except that they dislike it, then I'd want to know how many it bothers, how much it bothers them, in what ways it bothers them, why it bothers them etc to the extent possible. Knowing lets me take it into account in my own behavior according to my own judgement. Obvious I'd think.

And, though irrelevant to this thread, I agree that the existence of horrible horrible sex slavery (which is unquestionably vastly worse for its victims than PUA is for anyone) is something that all mongers should think about and consider in deciding what p4p they will and won't do. Also btw, it is a topic much discussed on a lot of p4p boards and by many mongers.

That it was @Sinapse who wondered (aloud) if he is harassing women speaks well of him imo. Whether or not it influences his PUA behavior, he at least isn't ignoring the issue.

-Ww

Well, then, let's speak to the difference between approaching and harassing. Because it appears some people have no clue as to what harassing acutally is.

Approaching

We are pretty much free to approach anybody in a public space, and if polite, usually nobody is going to fault you for it. Usually, if there is a problem, it's:

1) The person approaching was rude or threatening.

2) The person approached was arrogant or very paranoid.

Here, we can run into people that have over inflated egos or delusions of high status. If you are truly that rich or high class, then you can afford to limit access to your person. Pay a bodyguard or be driven around in a limousine. Certainly, riding trains, a common cafe, or mixing with common folk is beneath you.

The other is being so paranoid, that you feel any person (often feminists label this as any male) approaching you is an immediate threat, with the intention to do you harm. Clearly that's not a normal or mentally healthy view of the world.

When a person with Izakaya fliers approaches me, I don't freak and go running down the street or later sit in a corner crying about how I was traumatized by how such a "low person" tried to hand me a flier.

Harassing

Is persistently being annoying, hostile, or aggressive. The key word here is PERSISTENT. That is, somebody has made it known that they don't want to be disturbed, but the other person persists in the behavior that is considered bothersome.

1) To put the behavior in the category of harassment, have you indicated you don't want to be disturbed?

You see, arrogance and ego, is assuming others should automatically and mysteriously know their place relative to yourself. Delusions of grandeur.

Those who don't suffer from over inflated egos can simply indicate they rather not be distributed by hand gestures, verbal comment, etc...

2) After the a person indicates they don't want to be disturbed, does the other person persist?

This is harassment, and NOT what any PUA should ever be doing. It defeats the entire purpose of approaching and starting a conversation. You can't squeeze water out of a rock. There is no point trying to continue a conversation with people that asked not to bothered or are indicating tremendous discomfort with your presence. A relationship or friendship, the goal, is unlikely to come from it.

What is the point of PUA?

The point is to increase your odds of going on dates and finding a potential partner by increasing the number of people that you talk and interact with. If you isolate and cut yourself off from others, then it is statistically more difficult for men to meet women. Thus having to resort to buying women, as among the few remaining options. Not every man wants to always or only buy women. So, some men can want to increase their options to get dates, not decrease them.

PUA, is about refining the techniques of approaching and starting conversations. Instead of doing it in a haphazard and clumsy way, they study it and get better at it. With that stated, there are many ways to go about it. There isn't any 1 particular methods, but many.

 

[John Chavers]

I found a promotional photo for @Solong and @Sinapse's new PUAdventure series:

 

[Solong]

I found a promotional photo for @Solong and @Sinapse's new PUAdventure series:

View attachment 818

Come on, you are pushing it, and you know it. Better that you discuss the topic specifically, not target people.

PUA is for every man. The regular guy that wants to have some more options.

 

[Goiter]

Man you guys must have a lot of free time. Could you post an outline or abstract at the top of each post?

 

[TAG Manager]

I found a promotional photo for @Solong and @Sinapse's new PUAdventure series:

View attachment 818

For once, I'm okay with this.

 

[DJV]

PUA is for every man. The regular guy that wants to have some more options.

I'm not so sure.
At the beach, the surfer is in the water trying to catch the right wave, and the PUA stays on the sand with his board nearby trying to catch the right girl.
Both have an expertise in manipulating his board, except the PUA never goes in the water

Some girls prefer real surfers, and some just go for the one who's got the look, and doesn't have the messy hair and clothes.

Certainly there are some girls who are undecided between the two, and there is a gray area.
PUA like to struggle and conquer, girls like to tease and resist..
All of this is ok as long as it remains a game between 2 consenting people. But I don't think "consent" is the first subject/disclaimer in PUA seminars.

 

[Solong]

For once, I'm okay with this.

I think it encourages attacking the person and not debating the topic, sly insults, and derailing of the topics. This keeps happening over and over; it has become predictable. Apparently, when certain people disagree with a thread or person, they try to troll or degrade the thread into mudslinging so it gets locked. I or others could just troll people, but I thought the point of TAG is discussion.

 

[Sinapse]

Some girls prefer real surfers, and some just go for the one who's got the look, and doesn't have the messy hair and clothes

This analogy doesn't even make sense..

What, exactly, is it that the PUA isn't doing in life that guys who don't do PU are (what is the "surfing"?)

A better analogy would be "PUAs go out and surf, everyone else watches surfing videos at home on their couch"

Or "PUAs and naturals get laid, everyone else masturbates"

Obviously this is pretty extreme, but so was your original analogy

 

[ruberian]

First , please apologize my bad english .

I come here to learn the technic of PUA because sometimes i meet a girl that i think if i could know her it would be nice . I think PUA exist for that purpose (for everyman) . get laid or not i don't really care everybody have his own pace . It just one of the skills that could be learn and i really like the knowledge i get from here a lot with all this discussion so thanks .

 

[Solong]

I'm not so sure.
At the beach, the surfer is in the water trying to catch the right wave, and the PUA stays on the sand with his board nearby trying to catch the right girl.
Both have an expertise in manipulating his board, except the PUA never goes in the water

Some girls prefer real surfers, and some just go for the one who's got the look, and doesn't have the messy hair and clothes.

Certainly there are some girls who are undecided between the two, and there is a gray area.
PUA like to struggle and conquer, girls like to tease and resist..
All of this is ok as long as it remains a game between 2 consenting people. But I don't think "consent" is the first subject/disclaimer in PUA seminars.

I think a major problem is many people don't understand what PUA is, or they have a feminist warped view of it. That is, PUA is some type of fraudulent gimmick to take people's money or marauding street hustlers harassing or trying to rape women.

Often men are hypocritically demonized for doing what women are doing to men. And the women or feminists doing such, often have a self-serving agenda. They want men to have few options. If a woman seeks to adjust her appearance (makeup, pushup bra), or read books or magazines on how to bag a rich guy or Mr. Right then nobody should say a thing. If men use any methods to increase their success or options, then suddenly it's a problem.

It's better to simply understand PUA as trying to get better at meeting and talking to people, to increase your dating options and level of success. Furthermore, PUA can be used by women to get men, as it can be tailored in any direction.

If you decided bar X is better than bar Y to meet women/men, that's PUA. If you decided shirt X would look better on you than shirt Y, when you go out looking to talk to women, that's PUA. If you decided to do push ups or get fit, to attract the opposite sex, that's PUA. If you decided which restaurant is better to have dinner at, that's PUA too.

It's basic and simple, except you are adding up all these options and decisions, into a plan or method that you personally believe will help you the most. There is no "trick". It is your plan or method tailored for you.

If you feel that you need guidance, then you can pay for it. Like a Kick-Boxer or a gymnast that needs a coach. And we don't all have to take it to that level. Plenty of people practice Kick-Boxing or Yoga as a hobby and at home/local gym. You have multiple options: develop your own method/style, borrow or buy other methods and tailor it to you, or get coaching. You do, what you feel is best for you.

 

[just4fun]

I'm not so sure.
At the beach, the surfer is in the water trying to catch the right wave, and the PUA stays on the sand with his board nearby trying to catch the right girl.
Both have an expertise in manipulating his board, except the PUA never goes in the water

Some girls prefer real surfers, and some just go for the one who's got the look, and doesn't have the messy hair and clothes.

Certainly there are some girls who are undecided between the two, and there is a gray area.
PUA like to struggle and conquer, girls like to tease and resist..
All of this is ok as long as it remains a game between 2 consenting people. But I don't think "consent" is the first subject/disclaimer in PUA seminars.

I have an ex that loved to flirt.....and she was great at it.....and as soon as she got a business card/mail addy/phone number she was done......even guys that really pushed her......she would point to me and said she's going home with him (me) and btw.....thanks for the drink.
Girls love games.......and they usually always win......you may think you've won if can them to bed but she made the choice (usually) She would tell me after we got divorced.....(14 years btw) that she could decide within a minute yes or no......with her there was very little grey area.

 

[Wwanderer]

The easiest way to avoid harassing a girl is to not touch her at all, keep a respectful distance while still close enough to talk, and remain calm. .... Additionally, don't be too obnoxiously persistent.

@Sinapse with the above parts of the OP and @Solong with the distinctions you make between behaviors you label as "harassing" vs "approaching" etc, it appears to me that you are implicitly acknowledging/understanding that PUA can and in fact does bother some women, and in response you go about PUA in ways intended to minimize doing so. That seems just fine to me. You have both thought about the issue (which is all I suggested and which @Sinapse also recommended in the OP) and taken it into account in your own personal ways...and are at peace with it I presume.

Not everyone would reach the same conclusions or feel similarly about it of course. For example if I did something that even occasionally and unjustifiably (imo...but not theirs obviously) made people panic and run away with me (must be a pretty bad feeling for them), it would probably deter me from doing it without some overwhelmingly strong motivation. But we each have to make those judgements for ourselves.

But most importantly, I think your responses indicate that you agree that at least what some guys call PUA is unacceptably bothersome/harassing to women. For example, I believe that at someone (I've forgotten who) on TAG quite recently suggested tapping a girl on the shoulder to get her attention and establish physical contact/interest (or something like that) when first approaching her. And a while back @TokyoJoeblow reported trying to pick-up girls on the street by approaching them and putting his arm around their shoulders while talking to them. (I believe he got a lot of bad reactions, including many of them running away.)

The point I'm trying to make is that even if the way you practice PUA does not "cross the line" by your personal standards, the way others do it does. Thus, there is some merit in this criticism of cold PUA even if it does not apply to you personally. (As a teacher I know likes to say to her students in various contexts, "This is not *just* about you!")

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

I know when you get to close to a japanese in conversation.....it scares thatm a tad.....japanese talk with japanese not so close.....maybe it scares them a tad

 

[Wwanderer]

Think about all the ways you are "harassed" on the street:

-touts for izakayas
-homeless people
-those annoying Filipina women who run around scamming people for money to give to "orphans"
-loud speakers from right-wing rallies, electronics shops, trucks driving around advertising boy bands, manga cafes, and pickup service for old appliances.

Most of what you say in this and related threads, @Sinapse, makes sense to me, and I agree with some of it too. But not the bit quoted above!

I of course agree that what you say is true, but you somehow seem to be implying that it makes bothering women with PUA (those who are bothered by it) somehow more acceptable or excusable. Seriously? Do you want to be like the sorts of people you list who harass folks on the street? Does the fact that they bother people mean that you somehow give yourself a pass to bother them too? I think I am not following you

In short, Japan is a high-harassment society. But this is their right, no matter whether we like it or not.

And, as an aside, no one (at least not me) is talking about rights, legal or otherwise here. But that means little. There are many many things one has the right to do that are still bad behavior.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

When you go out in public, you are, whether you like it or not, opening yourself to be talked to by random people for whatever reason. It is part of the culture and background. Within those bounds, don't touch people or be aggressive, and you'll already be better than all of those guys I mentioned. Simple!

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

So, men shouldn't talk to women? People shouldn't talk to other people and we should perceive all interactions as threatening or unwanted? I hope that's not the ludicrous end point of your position.

And about pulling things from the Internet to support your bias opinions. Which you already mentioned your bias against men approaching women for a conversation and your lack of understanding of PUA... Since when does Julien Blanc represent all PUAs? Oh nevermind, don't let that inconvenience get in the way.

So if men are only suppose to buy women, you do know many women are against prostitution? Seems like a no win situation. You can't approach women nor can you buy them, so I guess the human race should split into gay and lesbian camps, never to mix.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012/04/11/prostitution/
(Sex Slavery & Women Having No Choice)

And are you going to attack all the PUA threads now, and should the PUAs attack all the prostitution threads?

When you think about it, Japan doesn't really have a flirt culture at all.

All these Japanese business men are essentially buying women at kyabakuras and countless other entertainment establishments.

Most Japanese couples start out as friends and move at such a slow pace toward a sexual relationship that by comparison, nampa (even the most passive) looks like straight up molestation!

Maybe that is why many (not all) Japanese women (should I say girls?) overreact when I hit on them? I don't always approach aggressively and get physical. I have tried passive methods and have gotten the same creeped out reactions.

I also find it strange when most Japanese women become so uneasy around foreign men that they try to avoid them...even when they aren't even hitting on them.

I have had situations where I have made eye contact with Japanese women yards away and had them literally change direction or quickly look away, turn around, pretend they spotted something in the window of a shop, got a text on their phone, etc.

I just feel that here in Japan, all the women almost anticipate being hit on by any foreigner that they make eye contact with. I mean other than severe shyness or insecurity, why else would these women act so defensive within a such a brief and passing moment?

 

[Wwanderer]

The other is being so paranoid, that you feel any person (often feminists label this as any male) approaching you is an immediate threat, with the intention to do you harm. Clearly that's not a normal or mentally healthy view of the world.

When a person with Izakaya fliers approaches me, I don't freak and go running down the street or later sit in a corner crying about how I was traumatized by how such a "low person" tried to hand me a flier.

I think most of the bad experiences and conditioned reflex to run is because they have been picked up in the past by aggressive, verbally abusive, shitsukoi, touchy nampa guys AND/OR the huge amount of weird/scammy guys who are out in the streets recruiting for prositution, AV, kyaba, and other night/sex work. In short, the honest, respectful nanpa guys are bundled together with the terrible nanpa guys and the scammy catches

Both of you, @Solong and @Sinapse, give what you take to be bad or invalid reasons that a woman might have a negative reaction or bad feeling about being approached via cold PUA. The above quotes are *examples* from your posts.

Perhaps you are correct in many or most cases; I certainly don't know. But isn't this only marginally relevant? In other words, if a person experiences something as unpleasant, the fact that you (or anyone) thinks that they should or could have some different reaction doesn't change the experience for them at all. If one prefers not to make other people unhappy, then the main thing is whether or not one is making them unhappy, not why they have that reaction.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

believe it or not, we do make (some) women quite happy. If out of 100 approaches, 5 run away and feel "harassed" and 10 feel grateful and happy they got to meet an awesome guy, should we stop talking to women altogether? Seems like in terms of "net societal happiness" nanpa is in general a positive.

I referred to this type of argument obliquely in another post. Let me make it more explicit here. I can buy the generally reasoning you suggest, but because of the "sampling bias" it seems to me that you don't have enough information on the real feelings of most of those 100 to support the argument. In other words and in terms of your example/illustration, there are 85 women who didn't run away but whom you also didn't succeed in picking up. It is hard to know what their feelings might be. Some of them may have felt quite neutral about it and regard it as just another small hassle of daily life in Tokyo, like the trucks blaring far too loud political rants. Others may have hated it and felt like running away but were prevented by having enough self-control and dignity to just ignore you instead. And others still might have felt complimented and liked it but just didn't have time or the right circumstances to talk to you when you approached. And others, some other reaction... Very hard to say. You can hope and believe that more like it than dislike it, of course. Maybe so, but maybe not. A weak argument I think.

-Ww