Brexit, Yay Or Nay?

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RandomTokyoGuy said:
/yawn
But she really stayed quite on the Brexit issue and only ever expressed her hope that UK would stay.
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This is the whole point! She did express her wish to stay when she made a major speech a week before the vote so of course sensible people would want to leave Europe if they followed the news. Would a sane person agree with Mad Merkel?

From today's news. Even George Soros who is famous for using his money for helping the disadvantaged thinks she crazy and brought 'chaos' to Europe.

Merkel's open door policy has brought 'chaos' to Europe, claims George Soros as German leader is blamed for Brexit over her failure to deal with migrant crisis
  • German Chancellor Angela Merkel is being blamed for the Brexit decision
  • Critics highlight her open-door approach to immigration as being to blame
  • Concerns that it will spark a wide-spread anti-EU feeling across the bloc
  • Right-wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) is demanding a vote for 'Dexit'
 
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MossBoss said:
This is the whole point! She did express her wish to stay when she made a major speech a week before the vote so of course sensible people would want to leave Europe if they followed the news. Would a sane person agree with Mad Merkel?

From today's news. Even George Soros who is famous for using his money for helping the disadvantaged thinks she crazy and brought 'chaos' to Europe.

Merkel's open door policy has brought 'chaos' to Europe, claims George Soros as German leader is blamed for Brexit over her failure to deal with migrant crisis
  • German Chancellor Angela Merkel is being blamed for the Brexit decision
  • Critics highlight her open-door approach to immigration as being to blame
  • Concerns that it will spark a wide-spread anti-EU feeling across the bloc
  • Right-wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) is demanding a vote for 'Dexit'
Click to expand...
Just curious: Do you leave in Japan?
I assume the answer is "yes", in which case, I ask myself how you know so much about what happens in th UK, as well as in Germany, Poland etc..
Ah, yes, the obvious answer is: You read the press, watch TV. read blogs etc...
Hang on a minute, who posted recently a scathing attack against the press, saying that it should not be believed etc??? Was it you by any chance???
 
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dreams said:
Just curious: Do you leave in Japan?
I assume the answer is "yes", in which case, I ask myself how you know so much about what happens in th UK, as well as in Germany, Poland etc..
Ah, yes, the obvious answer is: You read the press, watch TV. read blogs etc...
Hang on a minute, who posted recently a scathing attack against the press, saying that it should not be believed etc??? Was it you by any chance???
Click to expand...

The UK has perhaps the best range of media available in the world today. But it is important to know how to use the information available. If you read a range of news resources and know it's limitations you can have a good idea of what is happening in the world today. I travel around a lot so have a lot of time to check news sites etc...

Personally I'm about 55% leave - 45% stay. I see the pros and cons of both sides. I initially avoided posting in this thread but I don't like miss-information being posted. Most people on TAG are not from the UK so they might believe some of the claims posted on here. To be honest only @Wwanderer and @roots reggae have given valid arguments for the Remain side. Yet they are not even from Europe I believe. It is clear they follow the news carefully and speak to people with different perspectives. It might have been you or the other guy who mentioned all the English people you know share exactly the same opinions as you! This is not a good way to get a balanced view.

With all due respect, it is clear you don't follow current affairs closely. I could give a much better defence of the Remain side than your attempt if I had the time. I'm sure if we debated some topic like Harry Potter books or Polish pastries you could be a contender.

If I see miss-information I correct it. Last week a poster called New Hot Point a 'pink salon'. This is miss-information as it is a 'peep show'. I corrected it. If people don't correct miss-information it is repeated by others not aware of the facts. Then eventually something not true becomes essentially a 'fact'.

I like reading information by people who know what they are talking about. I have disagreed with Solong various times but I respect him for his knowledge about swingers. Same with Sinapse and his knowledge about 'hunting ladies'. If you can come up with valid arguments why Remain is the way forward, I'm open to change my opinion.
 
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MossBoss said:
The UK has perhaps the best range of media available in the world today. But it is important to know how to use the information available. If you read a range of news resources and know it's limitations you can have a good idea of what is happening in the world today. I travel around a lot so have a lot of time to check news sites etc...

Personally I'm about 55% leave - 45% stay. I see the pros and cons of both sides. I initially avoided posting in this thread but I don't like miss-information being posted. Most people on TAG are not from the UK so they might believe some of the claims posted on here. To be honest only @Wwanderer and @roots reggae have given valid arguments for the Remain side. Yet they are not even from Europe I believe. It is clear they follow the news carefully and speak to people with different perspectives. It might have been you or the other guy who mentioned all the English people you know share exactly the same opinions as you! This is not a good way to get a balanced view.

With all due respect, it is clear you don't follow current affairs closely. I could give a much better defence of the Remain side than your attempt if I had the time. I'm sure if we debated some topic like Harry Potter books or Polish pastries you could be a contender.

If I see miss-information I correct it. Last week a poster called New Hot Point a 'pink salon'. This is miss-information as it is a 'peep show'. I corrected it. If people don't correct miss-information it is repeated by others not aware of the facts. Then eventually something not true becomes essentially a 'fact'.

I like reading information by people who know what they are talking about. I have disagreed with Solong various times but I respect him for his knowledge about swingers. Same with Sinapse and his knowledge about 'hunting ladies'. If you can come up with valid arguments why Remain is the way forward, I'm open to change my opinion.
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Thanks, MossBoss, and thank you for being a good sport with my spoof of your blank post yesterday, nothing personal. It was too tempting to pass by.:sneaky:
 
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Just a little comment there (as a non British European working in finance, full of biases), what is/was the plan of the leave camp?
I can understand that people may be disturbed by the lack of sovereignty in some decisions as you belong to a bigger community. That's fair.
The biggest issue I can see is simply that gaining back this sovereignty means no access to the single market, no bank passport for the city with strong negative consequences for the country. UK benefited a lot from EU agreements overall despite their defiance to Brussels.
Today, the UK are threaten to turn to recession. Nobody wants to invest in a country without any certainties regarding its future.
At the end of the day, they will have to negotiate with EU anyway and then to make some compromises in a weak position.
May be for local, it's politically smart to gain such sovereignty.
Economically, the UK is simply hurting itself, reason why such decisions should be left to MPs who have a proper economic background.
 
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hkAlone said:
Economically, the UK is simply hurting itself, ...
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I think that you are correct, but it is often easy to forget that in the affairs of peoples and nations, money is not all.

In addition, I think that almost none of this thread has considered anything beyond the immediate horizon of Britain leaving the UK. In other words, most of the analysis and thought imagines everything else unchanged except that UK is no longer a part of the EU. But the reality, especially in the slightly longer run, will probably be much more complex. The EU itself will change, both due to Brexit and due to the continued effect of the political, economic and social forces that led to Brexit acting on the other member nations. The UK will change. The relationship of the rest of the world to Britain and the EU will change.

"The wheel's still in spin..."

-Ww
 
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Wwanderer said:
I think that you are correct, but it is often easy to forget that in the affairs of peoples and nations, money is not all.

-Ww
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I totally agree with hkAlone and Ww comments regarding the economy. Brexit is a gamble.

But I'm more scared of staying in Europe. If the current population trends continue. Something like an extra 30 million people will be living in the UK in my life time. The U.K. is already full. Public services can't keep up with demand. They are concreting over any grass they can find. Etc....

At present the UK has a trade deficit with Europe of around 70 billion pounds. It is in Europe's interest to do a trade deal. If they don't Euroland will go into recession too.

If the U.K. goes into recession it will be less attractive to immigrants. Which will be beneficial to people who use the over-stretched public services.

U.K. house prices will also fall which will be benefiical to young people who can't afford to move out of their parent's basement. (Unless they lose their jobs because of Brexit...)

Anyway millions who voted Brexit understand the nature of the gamble. Those who voted Remain are more focused on their own house price rather than what is good for the country. Everyone is selfish sometimes so I respect the reasons behind why people voted Remain.
 
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While I don't believe that anyone at all knows what the long term consequences of Brexit will be in economic terms, much less in political and social ones (and most certainly not me), I do very much agree with @MossBoss that it is by exactly those long term consequences that Brexit should, and eventually will, be judged...no matter what the motives of those who voted for Leave nor the character and honesty of the leaders of the Leave movement.

If I were British, I would have found my vote in the referendum a difficult judgement call but in the end would probably have gone with Leave on the basis of long term historical precedents. For centuries both the nation and the world have repeatedly been extremely well served by it being a major European power operating somewhat separately and apart from the nations of the continent. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

-Ww
 
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The uk is absolutely not full. Public services are straining because of political decisions taken by eton-educated toffs to redistribute wealth to their mates while using immigration(mostly caused by the UK's various invasions) as a smokescreen. The foreigners aren't taking anyone's jobs; the rich are draining money out of the economy.. The leave vote was mostly in protest at this and the sad irony is that it will probably make it easier for the monied classes to continue their march towards feudalism.
 
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MossBoss said:
The UK has perhaps the best range of media available in the world today. B
With all due respect, it is clear you don't follow current affairs closely. I could give a much better defence of the Remain side than your attempt if I had the time. I'm sure if we debated some topic like Harry Potter books or Polish pastries you could be a contender.
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I have not made any attempt to "defend" "remain" in this forum... I even said at the beginning that I did not think TAG is an appropriate place for this debate. And still think so....
I just reacted to some of your posts that I found offensive.. No apologies for that.
For the main debate, as, said before, I keep my discussions for real people, here in the UK, people who don't base their views only on media reports, even if they are "the best" in the world". I guess you did not mean the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the Sun, the Mirror etc...whch , between them, captures 80% of the market in the UK....
And no, I hardly know Harry Potter, never read or saw anything related t this, and neither Polish pastries.. Clearly you have a high opinion of your own knowledge , and I detect a little bit of contempt in your comments.. But no worries, at my age, I have a thick skin...
 
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...holocaust-have-never-been-more-relevant-in-b/

Since you like to pick up and select your quotes to support your views, (re: Soros for instance on Merkel) I hope you will allow me to do the same: This is from a paper from "the best media" in the world, in your words, so I guess you would not discard it straightaway as propaganda... Oh yes, it's "isolated" perhaps, but far less than before, and for those affected, isolated or not, painful... Enough said....
 
dreams said:
, I keep my discussions for real people, here in the UK, people who don't base their views only on media reports,
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Every region in England voted Out except London. I guess your 'real' people are in London. Widen your circle of associates and listen to different viewpoints.
 
There is also this comparison to the recent vote, and the "cow disease" epidemic from some years ago.......
brexit&cowDisease.jpg
 
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Pretty certain 90%+ of the people reposting that map don't realize it's not true.

Says a lot about most of the information used to support both sides of the campaign, and the people that quote it to support their arguments.
 
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Seems that 'foot in mouth' disease is rampant across the UK. Lucky I resettled in Japan where there is no such disease.
 
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Curacao said:
Public services are straining because of political decisions taken by eton-educated toffs to redistribute wealth to their mates while using immigration(mostly caused by the UK's various invasions) as a smokescreen. The foreigners aren't taking anyone's jobs; the rich are draining money out of the economy.. The leave vote was mostly in protest at this and the sad irony is that it will probably make it easier for the monied classes to continue their march towards feudalism.
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The former multi-millionaire boss of Remain disagrees. He was soon replaced as head of the 'in' crowd for being too honest!

Wages for British workers will rise in the event of a Brexit, head of 'in' campaign, Lord Rose says

Wages will rise if Britain votes to leave the European Union and the number of EU migrants coming to the UK falls, the head of the “in” campaign has admitted.

Lord Rose, the former head of Marks & Spencer who is leading the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, told MPs on Wednesday that if a British exit leads to restrictions on EU migrants, then “the price of labour will, frankly, go up”.
 
veryniceguy said:
There is also this comparison to the recent vote, and the "cow disease" epidemic from some years ago.......
Click to expand...

I guess you could find maps which show which dieseases are more common in the Remain areas such as London and Edinburgh for satirical reasons too. But it is not big or clever.
 
MossBoss said:
I totally agree with hkAlone and Ww comments regarding the economy. Brexit is a gamble.

But I'm more scared of staying in Europe. If the current population trends continue. Something like an extra 30 million people will be living in the UK in my life time. The U.K. is already full. Public services can't keep up with demand. They are concreting over any grass they can find. Etc....

At present the UK has a trade deficit with Europe of around 70 billion pounds. It is in Europe's interest to do a trade deal. If they don't Euroland will go into recession too.

If the U.K. goes into recession it will be less attractive to immigrants. Which will be beneficial to people who use the over-stretched public services.

U.K. house prices will also fall which will be benefiical to young people who can't afford to move out of their parent's basement. (Unless they lose their jobs because of Brexit...)

Anyway millions who voted Brexit understand the nature of the gamble. Those who voted Remain are more focused on their own house price rather than what is good for the country. Everyone is selfish sometimes so I respect the reasons behind why people voted Remain.
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@MossBoss @Wwanderer. Point taken.
I'm not British.
A quick point on the UK trade deficit.
You are right. UK has a big trade deficit with other European Union countries.
Both sides of the channel are interdependent. Reason why the first sure consequence of Brexit will be a serious recession in the UK and a cost in the range of 0.5 points of GDP on the European zone. Why? When you have a deficit, it has to be financed by foreigner investment i.e real estates selling, company acquisitions, debt emission.
Today, foreigner investment is broken. Real estates is expected to plummet. Without any visibility must investors are just waiting.
The British pound sunk by 10% increasing the cost of imports but improving British exporters competitiveness.
Over the next couple of years, financing the deficit won't be easy.
In other words, EC and UK have to settle on a deal, but the pressure will be much more on UK side because of the imbalanced intensity of consequences and the two years time constraint. The deal won't be favorable for UK. It won't be doomsday but there will be a bit of pain in the process. I seriously doubt UK will manage to negotiate the access to the single market without accepting the freedom of movement.
This is only the economical side of the issue.
Politically, the dismantlement of Great Britain is really at stake. France and Spain refused to start the talks on EC membership with Scotland... as long as they are a part of UK. If Scotland becomes independent, EC membership will just be a formality. Even Spain (with its concern on Catalonia), won't be in a position to refuse the call of Scottish people to integrate the community.
Last but not least, there is some strong inconsistency on the position of UK regarding EC integration.
UK pushed to integrate new nations within the EC (Romania, Bulgaria) in 2007 despite the concerns of France and Germany. Until recently it was the first supporter of the Turkey adhesion (whose borders where crossed freely by jihadists over the last two years).
Now, the same U.K. wants to act against freedom of movement, feeling uncomfortable at the idea to have gypsies settling in the country.

Once again, I'm not British then I cannot judge the feeling of belonging to an insular nation. I would just emphasize that refusing to be a part of European integration comes at a high price economically and in term of political influence. I'm not sure that people who voted Leave realized it.
 
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hkAlone said:
@MossBoss @Wwanderer.
UK pushed to integrate new nations within the EC (Romania, Bulgaria) in 2007 despite the concerns of France and Germany. Until recently it was the first supporter of the Turkey adhesion (whose borders where crossed freely by jihadists over the last two years).
Now, the same U.K. wants to act against freedom of movement, feeling uncomfortable at the idea to have gypsies settling in the country.
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You make a lot of good points. The economic road ahead might be bumpy. But if you read the latest fininicial headlines the traders don't seem to be worried.

If Scotland wants to become part of the EU it will take a number of years before approval.

Regarding the immigration issue. This was the New Labour project of importing voters. People in the Labour Party have admitted the policy was to bring in as many immigrants as possible as they are more likely to vote Labour. The plan eventually backfired as now their traditional core support despise them. I can't see the British people ever voting Labour again.

Read the tabloid press every day you can see stories regarding these same immigrants murdering and raping people. Then being protected with the EU Human Right's Laws so they can't be deported.

Anyway according to the press, this week has seen negotiations with Turkey for entry in the EU move to the next stage. The Turks believe they should take the UK's place in the EU.

Happy days!


FTSE 100 has best week since 2011 as London stock market is boosted by Carney hint at Brexit cash injection
 
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[QUdon't think Boss, post: 71817, member: 4259"]The former multi-millionaire boss of Remain disagrees. He was soon replaced as head of the 'in' crowd for being too honest!

Wages for British workers will rise in the event of a Brexit, head of 'in' campaign, Lord Rose says

Wages will rise if Britain votes to leave the European Union and the number of EU migrants coming to the UK falls, the head of the “in” campaign has admitted.

Lord Rose, the former head of Marks & Spencer who is leading the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, told MPs on Wednesday that if a British exit leads to restrictions on EU migrants, then “the price of labour will, frankly, go up”.[/QUOTE]

Sorry who disagrees with what? Your post makes no sense.

Also 'if a British exit leads to restriction on EU migrants'... Well there is a big question mark hanging over that point isn't there? In spite of the leave campaign's claims that bre it would reduce the numbers of EU migrants it seems pretty clear that the EU will only allow Britain free trade if it accepts free movement. And the leave campaign knew that and yet still campaigned on the basis of reduced immigration. Like the leave campaigners your logic is all over the place and your grasp on the facts is (willfully or not) rather loose.

There are of course pros and cons on both sides of the argument but I don't think they received a fair hearing during the referendum.
 
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