Going Dutch Once In A While At Love Hotels?

[TokyoJoeblow]

Swingers don't cheat on each other, there wouldn't ordinarily be any side lovers, unless they both know them personally. For example 2 married couples, where husbands swap wives, and they all know each other. They would ordinarily have group sex in front of each other or wife swapping would be pre-approved. There is no jealousy, selfishness, or hiding.

However this requires a level of maturity, unselfishness, and honesty that most can't handle. She can do, what he can do. It's a fair and even type exchange, not he does whatever and she can't.

There are also variations of open relationships and open-marriages, and these are NOT just swingers, where the husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend let's the other indulge more sexually. This can work, where there is an honest exchange, and it's acknowledged one is sexually stronger than the other or simply OK with the other having more fun on the side.

Examples:

1) Husband is rich or very good job and takes great care of the wife economically, and she wants to keep the relationship.

However her sexual level is ADMITTEDLY much lower than his, and she knows it.

She may openly allow him to have mistresses. In many cases that I've seen, they may also have kids, so she is overly focused on the role of housewife and mother, but not lover. Him having sex-friends means she doesn't or rarely has to do sex, and she is fine with that.

2) Cuckhold Husband or Nympho/Hyper-Sexual Wife

In this case the husband is sexually weaker, where the wife is very much sexually stronger.

They are perfectly fine with the relationship, minus the sexual imbalance. Therefore the husband brings men to satisfy his wife. They are open and honest with each other and their needs, and the husband is very voyeuristic in nature and enjoys the game that they play.

In this case, the woman has a really high sex drive. Last time, she gave me a huge hickey mark and scratchedup my chest and arms. I now have to hide these battle scars from the wife lol.

 

[Wwanderer]

As to when, I have observed and experienced, that it's best to have some romantic or sexual connection first. Running up to women and saying, "Hi, I'm married. Do you want to have sex with me and let me cheat on my wife? At least I'm honest!" Almost never ever works out in reality.

As I/we have noted before in other conversations, our experiences with women appear to differ radically...for reasons that are perhaps subtle and difficult to articulate but may come down to the type of women we find attractive and to whom we are attractive, but something like what you describe works routinely, the large majority of the time, for me. (Of course it is not literally the first thing I say to a woman that interests me, but I put it way up front...generally before the our first date and always before our first kiss or sex or whatever.)

-Ww

 

[Solong]

As I/we have noted before in other conversations, our experiences with women appear to differ radically...for reasons that are perhaps subtle and difficult to articulate but may come down to the type of women we find attractive and to whom we are attractive, but something like what you describe works routinely, the large majority of the time, for me. (Of course it is not literally the first thing I say to a woman that interests me, but I put it way up front...generally before the our first date and always before our first kiss or sex or whatever.)

-Ww

You are probably quite charismatic or have extra size balls, so can pull it off. I'm not knocking your style, but saying that being more slow and calculating works for a lot of other guys.

Rocky Marciano, Ali, Tyson, and Klitschko were all HW Boxing Champions and all have very different styles. Different styles can be equally effective.

I'm just saying for many guys and in most circumstances, leaving less to chance and playing the odds will likely work out better for them. If after you had sex with her and she refused to continue a relationship, well at least you had a good time. Where declaring early on that you would like to cheat on your wife with her, will be cold stop for many women. If not, and she is with it, well there you go and have fun too.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

You are probably quite charismatic or have extra size balls, so can pull it off. I'm not knocking your style, but saying that being more slow and calculating works for a lot of other guys.

Rocky Marciano, Ali, Tyson, and Klitschko were all HW Boxing Champions and all have very different styles. Different styles can be equally effective.

I'm just saying for many guys and in most circumstances, leaving less to chance and playing the odds will likely work out better for them. If after you had sex with her and she refused to continue a relationship, well at least you had a good time. Where declaring early on that you would like to cheat on your wife with her, will be cold stop for many women. If not, and she is with it, well there you go and have fun too.

I totally agree that admitting you have a gf or wife is an automatic deal breaker with like 99% of women. Not just in Japan, but probably the whole world. The only reason I opened my mouth and told her I'm married is because she told me right off the bat with seemingly no hesitation...I was quite shocked. She told me that her husband knows her character and knows that she often meets guys and makes out with them? All I know is if I ever get go 3rd or 4th base with her...I'm using protection.

 

[John Chavers]

All I know is if I ever get go 3rd or 4th base with her

TIL: modern pulp fiction writers still reference baseball when illustrating a sexual conquest

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

TIL: modern pulp fiction writers still reference baseball when illustrating a sexual conquest

What can I say? I'm a big fan of modern pulp fiction, baseball and sexual conquest.

 

[Solong]

I totally agree that admitting you have a gf or wife is an automatic deal breaker with like 99% of women. Not just in Japan, but probably the whole world. The only reason I opened my mouth and told her I'm married is because she told me right off the bat with seemingly no hesitation...I was quite shocked. She told me that her husband knows her character and knows that she often meets guys and makes out with them? All I know is if I ever get go 3rd or 4th base with her...I'm using protection.

For women, admitting they are married and want sex is fine or at least way less of an issue. It's another one of those sexual double-standards that massively favor women, but are often not talked about. Few men that I know of will pass up the offer, even if she confesses to being married.

The main things about having sexual affairs with married women that I've seen are:

1) Is she protecting your information or is trustworthy?

Some women want to get caught, to make their husband or boyfriend jealous. They want the guys fighting over them, and this is some psycho and primitive bullshit that can even get dudes killed, her ass killed too, or sued.

Married women, who are cheating, also have a huge advantage. Women, when they put their mind to it, are WAY LESS likely to get caught. Husbands usually have no clue and no skills at catching their spouse cheating. When they do catch her, it's often because she is crazy, very obvious sloppy, or incredible bad luck.

2) Protect your information and identity as much as possible.

Minimize how much she knows about you. And many married women who are just about the sex on the side, like it that way too. Using nicknames and hotels (or swinger clubs).

If number 2 is too late (she knows a lot about you), then damn sure and make sure she is number 1 (trustworthy). Have a DIRECT conversation with her about keeping everything secret and HOW she will do it. Look in her eyes, her body language, how she talks and make sure she isn't a troublesome psycho. You can even try some minor tests of her trustworthiness. If she proves to be trustworthy, have fun.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

For women, admitting they are married and want sex is fine or at least way less of an issue. It's another one of those sexual double-standards that massively favor women, but are often not talked about. Few men that I know of will pass up the offer, even if she confesses to being married.

The main things about having sexual affairs with married that I've seen are:

1) Is she protecting your information or is trustworthy?

Some women want to get caught, to make their husband or boyfriend jealous. They want the guys fighting over them, and this is some psycho and primitive bullshit that can even get dudes killed, her ass killed too, or sued.

Married women, who are cheating, also have a huge advantage. Women, when they put their mind to it, are WAY LESS likely to get caught. Husbands usually have no clue and no skills at catching their spouse cheating. When they do catch her, it's often because she is crazy, very obvious sloppy, or incredible bad luck.

2) Protect your information and identity as much as possible.

Minimize how much she knows about you. And many married women who are just about the sex on the side, like it that way too. Using nicknames and hotels (or swinger clubs).

If number 2 is too late (she knows a lot about you), then damn sure and make sure she is number 1 (trustworthy). Have a DIRECT conversation with her about keeping everything secret and HOW she will do it. Look in her eyes, her body language, how she talks and make sure she isn't a troublesome psycho. You can even try some minor tests of her trustworthiness. If she proves to be trustworthy, have fun.

This is great advice. Yes, I have already spoken with her directly. Just today I told her I couldn't respond her to earlier texts this morning because my wife was home. When we met up, she told me that she wouldn't text me until I text her first, so that sounded good.

What types of tests would you recommend? I will definitely try some out when I meet with her tomorrow.

 

[Solong]

This is great advice. Yes, I have already spoken with her directly. Just today I told her I couldn't respond her to earlier texts this morning because my wife was home. When we met up, she told me that she wouldn't text me until I text her first, so that sounded good.

What types of tests would you recommend? I will definitely try some out when I meet with her tomorrow.

Have a conversation with her about a MALE friend that got caught by his wife.

Note- For various reasons, using this story, it's important to switch the gender. If you make it the female that got caught, she may think you are referring directly about her or get extremely defensive. You don't want that.

Explain how he left his phone out with no password and his wife went through his messages. Then say how you are much smarter than that, and protect information. Then ask abou her. "Can you believe that guy, I'm smarter than that. Password protect everything. Hey, what do you think abou this?"

Have her explain how she will protect your information or use nicknames for you. And you can SUGGEST things like instead of labeling you Joe on her phone, she labels you a British woman named Jane or even a Japanese name like Junko.

You can also drop some "what ifs" on her. Be careful, and make sure she is up for talking in this way, and not defensive. You also need to do it in a half-joking manner, not too serious.

"I'm trustworthy. Like if some unknown Japanese guy called me, I would tell him nothing. I got you covered (kiss). What if an unknown woman called/e-mailed you about me?"

You don't necessarily have to go that far, as often just talking about how she will protect your phone number or e-mail will reveal a lot. "My husband never looks at my phone." "OK, but you do password protect it right?"

 

[John Chavers]

wall o' text

What he said, and do it after a meal.

 

[Wwanderer]

I totally agree that admitting you have a gf or wife is an automatic deal breaker with like 99% of women. Not just in Japan, but probably the whole world.

Probably you do not mean this literally, but in case you do, let me note that

1 - you are wrong (very wrong, not even close to 99-t0-1, in my experience)

and

2 - in order to support such a claim you would need to have admitted (at the outset, I guess you mean) that you have a gf or wife to *thousands* of women and had them call it off on that basis.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

You are probably quite charismatic or have extra size balls, so can pull it off. I'm not knocking your style, but saying that being more slow and calculating works for a lot of other guys.

I don't feel particularly charismatic nor do I perceive my balls as oversized at all, but I am apparently unusual and treat women in ways they find more attractive than the ways they are treated by most guys. Here is a quote of a LINE message from a SYT that arrived in the last 48 hours or so:

"Your personality is unusual in the best way! I've never met anyone like you, and probably never will in the future."

I hear such comments from women and much more flattering ones all the time, including direct and favorable comparisons to how most men behave routinely. Recently I was asked suspiciously by a woman whom I was dating, "Are you suddenly going to start being a jerk like other guys at some point?"

I could go on with many such examples almost endlessly, but it would be unbecomingly immodest.

In my perception and fwiiw, it is not that I deal with women women in any magical or amazing or particularly wonderful way. My advantage is simply that "a lot of other guys" routinely treat them so very badly. Most men lie to them, manipulate them, do their best to game them, often treat them like life-support systems for a pussy, as simple targets for some sort for nampa/PUA techniques etc. Moreover, many guys insult their social intelligence (which typically exceeds that of males) by imagining that women do not recognize the disrespectful and deceiptful behavior and attitudes. Then, most astonishingly to me, such men are for some reason surprised or annoyed when women cheat on them or lie to them, treat them as a life-support system for a dick and/or a wallet, use sex to manipulate them etc.

I shouldn't complain though; all this makes dating very very easy for an old, washed-up, ugly looking guy like me. All I need do is be honest and treat women like full-fledged people, and suddenly I am a highly desirable and attractive partner. So, thanks very much...seriously!! ;-)

-Ww

 

[R.O.B]

I agree with Wwander. Many women have highly attuned bullshit monitors anyway, and it may be that part of the reason Japanese women do not contact back after seeming to be positive is that you have set off the monitors. Telling a lie is easy. Sustaining the lie is harder. You can lie to get into someone's panties once or a few times but what happens if you actually like her (or him) and want to go further. Keep the lie going? 'Fess up? Women appreciate honesty. Men appreciate politics. Women need a reason. Men need a place. If a guy is naturally and sincerely closer to the honest/reason end of the dichotomy continuum then it can do wonders. But I do wonder if age has anything to do with it.

 

[Wwanderer]

But I do wonder if age has anything to do with it.

Whose age? Mine? The ladies'?

I'm in my mid-60s. The women I have been seeing, including some cases of very serious emotional involvement, are typically in their 20s with a few in their thirties and a few in their late teens. That alone should tell you something about what @Solong calls my style and what I would call nothing more than being honest and respectful.

Sort of oddly, the women in my life were typically older (mostly within 10 years of my age) when I was younger!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Many women have highly attuned bullshit monitors anyway, and it may be that part of the reason Japanese women do not contact back after seeming to be positive is that you have set off the monitors.

Precisely so.

Intelligent women with even a moderate amount of experience with men (or who have a female mentor/confidant with such experiecence) will immediately doubt or outright disbelieve (and consider a liar) any guy who tells them that he has no SO (wife or gf) if he is reasonably attractive in terms of appearance, finances, personality, social skills etc and is not very young. Many expect lies from men on this topic because so many guys do it. They talk about this among themselves; I have heard it many times. Obviously this does not happen every time, but it is very common.

-Ww

 

[Vulkan]

So you're an ugly mid 60s foreigner in japan who gets laid with under 30s, including teens, because you are being sincere/honest in your approach?
Not saying you're a lier but i find it hard to believe... Did i miss anything?
Or maybe you can make a honesty workshop because it sounds amazing

 

[Wwanderer]

So you're an ugly mid 60s foreigner in japan who gets laid with under 30s, including teens, because you are being sincere/honest in your approach?
Not saying you're a lier but i find it hard to believe... Did i miss anything?
Or maybe you can make a honesty workshop because it sounds amazing

Well, there's no way for me to prove anything to you online, and I do understand why you find it hard to believe. I VERY often find my "luck" astonishing too. I don't know if it would convince you of anything, but you could ask my pal @just4fun. He has met a couple of my girlfriends and seen photos of me with some others...also has encountered my "unusual personality".

Fwiiw, the way you phrase the first line of your post already reveals that you are missing my point to a large extent; it is where you write "gets laid". It certainly happens...a lot, but getting laid, "scoring", is not the single-point focus or measure of success or central concern of my relationships.

And, to be fair, in addition to honesty and treating women respectfully (as equals in all ways) and not regarding them as property (these are the things women most often mention to me), I do have some other things going for me. One is A LOT of experience; I have been involved with women in very nearly every possible np4p and p4p and simply unconventional way I could for about 50 years and in numbers now in the hundreds (though not nearly so many serious relationships of course). Another is that I have a fair amount of disposable income and like to be as generous as I can with women I am seeing and in as many ways as possible. (I spend waaay less than most guys at my income level on other things...material possessions of all sorts, hobbies, investments etc.) Yet another, and an important one imo, is that I do not fear rejection or feel desperation re women. (This last is one point on which I agree with one of @Solong's frequent points ; if you are worried that she will reject your advances, the chances that she will do exactly that skyrocket. And the more worried/fearful you are, the greater the chance that she will show you the door.) Also, it has always seemed to me that I am damn lucky, especially in the women I happen to meet...maybe that is most of it. I can't possibly judge that objectively of course.

Maybe also relevant - only a modest minority of the women I see in Japan are Japanese, and the ones who are have lived abroad in most cases.

Does any of the above make what I say easier to believe? Anyway, take or it leave, believe it or not...your call.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

@Ww

I don't doubt you, but rather what you are doing is statistically applicable to most other guys. From what you have typed in the past, your intelligence and analytical ability shows through. That can easily translate into a skillful man when interacting with the ladies. It's not even a PUA/Nampa matter either, as plenty of NON-PUA guys attempt to cheat on their wives.

Many people can't handle honesty, or you need to be smart or skillful in how you present it. Most women that I've seen will reject a sexual offer from a married man out of the political correctness and social programming of it alone. In what I'm saying, is playing the odds, where at least the man is more likely to have sex before she rejects the relationship or put himself in the best position that she considers it.

 

[Wwanderer]

I don't doubt you, but rather what you are doing is statistically applicable to most other guys. From what you have typed in the past, your intelligence and analytical ability shows through. That can easily translate into a skillful man when interacting with the ladies.

It is possible that you are correct; I don't see any way in which I could know for sure. I am just me and can't walk a mile in another man's shoes (or intelligence or personality etc).

However, I can't for the life of me see why it is so difficult for almost any man to be honest, respectful, non-possessive, sincere etc. Moreover, I am pretty sure that most guys never even give it a solid try. Imo, they should. Otherwise they will never know. And if treating women well doesn't work out, one can always go back to treating them badly...lying, gaming, manipulating, being controling etc. Mostly it is a matter of reaping what you sew, not of intelligence or analytic ability or "skill" imo.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

Whose age? Mine? The ladies'?

I'm in my mid-60s. The women I have been seeing, including some cases of very serious emotional involvement, are typically in their 20s with a few in their thirties and a few in their late teens. That alone should tell you something about what @Solong calls my style and what I would call nothing more than being honest and respectful.

Sort of oddly, the women in my life were typically older (mostly within 10 years of my age) when I was younger!

-Ww

Ditto......

 

[R.O.B]

Your age, not the woman's.

 

[Vulkan]

Thanks for the reply; i didnt mean to summarize your point by "get laid" but did because i was to lazy to type more. I owe you an apologize for that becsuse you took the time to develop on this.

As for people not giving it a good try, i think most people fool themselves thinking they try their best when they don't; it's hard for soneone to go out of his comfort zone, i see that everyday even outside dating, like work and sports...and that includes myself

 

[NormalGuy]

I wish I even had an ounce of your success over here. I kinda bottle it when my Japanese starts to falter, end up being all stupid and drinking to try and overcome the shyness and then just becoming a complete mess that no-one wants to be seen with. I do really well when I get past the initial hurdle and make some good friends, but just finding that initial approach to be too big at the moment. Internet dating isn't working for me, and getting a good group of friends that want to socialise is taking a little while to come together, so I'm currently the loner sat in the corner hugging his pint.

I'm impressed Ww, a pretty girl in her 20's or 30's and I'd be settling down and doing my best to reverse the population decline

 

[Wwanderer]

@NormalGuy - To be clear and fair, I should give more emphasis to the fact that the women with whom I have had relationships in Tokyo are mostly either English-speaking gaijin expats or Japanese who have lived abroad extensively and who speak English well enough that it is our primary means of communication. My (situational only) Japanese is not even remotely good enough for me to date exclusively or mostly in Japanese.

That said, I do not believe that dealing with women truthfully, respectfully, sincerely, generously, fairly etc as I advocate/describe in posts above is appealing and attractive only to women of certain types, nationalities, cultures etc. If not perfectly universal (it could be, but I have no basis to make that claim), it is probably nearly so.

-Ww

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

I just messed around with a private student of mine last night. She knows I'm married but has been showing signs of attraction and the green light for a while now. I walked with her to an overpass and we made out under the bridge. I even did kabe don on her. She ended up giving me a bj. After that we went to the cafe to study English. I told her she didn't need to pay me this time. She bought be an iced tea and at the end of the lesson...she paid me anyway. So in just over an hour I aquired: An iced tea, 2,500 yen and a BJ oh yeah!