Happening Bar Not Happening

[Hap Smith]

All,

I am in a bit of a bind and would be grateful for some suggestions. My partner is keen to explore and is very interested in exhibitionism and/or swapping. The only problem is that she is not willing to go to a happening bar because of the risk of arrest. We can debate the extent of the risk (and yes I know it is probably less than getting run over on the way there), but it is a deal killer for her. Given that she is ready to explore, any thoughts on potential opportunities? If anyone knows for example of any private parties or the like, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Solong]

All,

I am in a bit of a bind and would be grateful for some suggestions. My partner is keen to explore and is very interested in exhibitionism and/or swapping. The only problem is that she is not willing to go to a happening bar because of the risk of arrest. We can debate the extent of the risk (and yes I know it is probably less than getting run over on the way there), but it is a deal killer for her. Given that she is ready to explore, any thoughts on potential opportunities? If anyone knows for example of any private parties or the like, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

Sigh, there are happening bars that have been operating for 10 years without incident.

And if you are that paranoid about happening bars, you should be equally paranoid of Japanese sex orgy police raiding the hotel, to include your or your friend's private residence.

The point of such fear, is a form of oppression. It's when a person or group tries to impose their beliefs on others. In order to do this, they can use many rationalizations, manipulations, and scare tactics. Therefore at some point, you have to stand up for what you believe in or cower in fear. A swinger or sexually liberated person will "walk the walk", where other hide under the covers. The choice is yours.

To hook up with other swingers, you can advertise on AdultFriendFinder, Craigslist, or here on the classified ads section.

 

[John Chavers]

@Solong should have prefaced that with IANAL.

I would strongly suggest avoiding HB's in the Tokyo area for the next few months. Shortest amount of time the police can hold you is three days.

 

[Hap Smith]

Solong,

Thanks for your thoughts, which I fully agree with.

My point though is that for my partner needs to be able to relax to enjoy herself, and will not at an HB. Despite the fact that the risks may be the same or higher at a hotel, she will see it differently, therefore relax, enjoy herself and all going well be up for it again.

I am happy to walk the walk, but not making her do something she is not comfortable doing.

Is AFF really any good for swingers? Any other sites (Japanese or English) that people can recommend?

Thanks

 

[Solong]

@Solong should have prefaced that with IANAL.

I would strongly suggest avoiding HB's in the Tokyo area for the next few months. Shortest amount of time the police can hold you is three days.

Did you see them arrest those guys for paying for sex with underage teenage prostitutes?

http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2015/0...n-for-sex-with-3-school-girls-in-chiba-hotel/

You should strongly advise to avoid all prostitution and places of prostitution while you are at it. Police have raided soaplands and delivery health too. You never know if an underage girl might be working there or if police will just decide to do a raid.

 

[meiji]

Being involved in behavior that's on the fringes of society is often frowned upon and/or illegal. I'm not sure why this is news to anyone.

Generally if you are a smart and think with your big head before getting involved, your risk is pretty minimal.

 

[Solong]

@Solong Shortest amount of time the police can is three days

You are telling people inaccurate information. The Japanese police do NOT have to hold you at all, there isn't a minimum time limit of 3 days. It's up to the police what they want to do.

And the Japanese police can hold you for up to 23 days, without a lawyer or filing formal charges. They just need approval from a judge, who will often grant it, for at 10 day time periods.

Many people don't realize that Japan operates almost under a kind of sustained martial law and the Japanese police have extraordinary powers. The U.N. and the United States have objected to Japanese police procedures on the grounds that such long stays without a lawyer is very much like torture and often results in false confessions.

However, the Japanese police have a stronger code of conduct and tradition, that minimizes them abusing their power to the extent police do in other countries.

The 3 days time period is how long they can hold you before requesting permission from a judge, which they often easily get.

Debito can explain this and more for you in regards to Japanese police procedure.

http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#arrested

 

[John Chavers]

You are telling people inaccurate information. The Japanese police do NOT have to hold you at all, there isn't a minimum time limit of 3 days. It's up to the police what they want to do.

The Japanese police use those three days as an unofficial punishment: you have no recourse. Some of us work for a living, and arrested on Friday night means missing work on a Monday.

 

[Solong]

Solong,

Thanks for your thoughts, which I fully agree with.

My point though is that for my partner needs to be able to relax to enjoy herself, and will not at an HB. Despite the fact that the risks may be the same or higher at a hotel, she will see it differently, therefore relax, enjoy herself and all going well be up for it again.

I am happy to walk the walk, but not making her do something she is not comfortable doing.

Is AFF really any good for swingers? Any other sites (Japanese or English) that people can recommend?

Thanks

Yes, I can confirm that AFF and Craigslist works. The main group the sites don't work for arebsingle heterosexual males and to a lesser extent single heterosexual women trying to find (though some are lying about it) "Mr. Perfect" or true love.

Put up an AFF ad with preferably sexy pictures of your lady (her face in the photos aren't needed), and you are ready to roll. Contact other swinger couples or they will contact you.

On Craigslist, put up an mw4mw ad. Then contact other couples or they will you.

http://tokyo.craigslist.jp/search/cas?query=mw4mw

Bisexual women

Also, there are many bisexual women.
Have your lady e-mail them or you can do this initial step pretending to be her, but be careful that the woman you are corresponding with doesn't rapidly figure out you are a guy. If you get in over your head and she is a good prospect, have your lady e-mail her and arrange voice calling them on LINE or Skype (avoid the real phone until meet). It usually works best when woman talk to each other a bit before meeting. This assures the bisexual women that the other person is actually a woman, not some guy trying to pretend.

 

[Solong]

The Japanese police use those three days as an unofficial punishment: you have no recourse. Some of us work for a living, and arrested on Friday night means missing work on a Monday.

I don't know why you are spreading misinformation. I'm at a lost as to what your purpose is. Japanese police don't hold you as "punishment", unless they feel that they have a very strong case against you or can win in court. If they have no case, they will usually IMMEDIATELY let the people go, give a warning, or work out a deal. This is a question of their honor, tradition, and public image, which police in Japan care about.

That means, in regards to what we are talking about, they must catch a person naked and/or in the middle of doing what they consider a lewd act. This is extremely hard for them to do, and often requires the bar/hotel to have lax security precautions (stupidity of bar owner) or be an open space (bad bar design). This situation, of catching in the act, is the same for when a couple has sex in a disco bathroom, park, stairway, soapland, or "massage parlor". The police usually do have better things to do, by the way. They must catch people at the moment. They do NOT arrest you for being in a Happening Bar. It's LEGAL to be in a bar. And the odds that police will conduct a raid at 1:30AM in the morning are extremely unlikely and usually not worth their time.

The Japanese police don't usually bother happening bars or swinger parties, unless they have a specific reason to. Because they don't want egg on their face for what is already a controversial policy of sex policing. Which is they usually have a reason such as: underage girls, tax evasion, illegal foreign workers, complaints about a new bar opening in the area (politics), noise, or hiring of prostitutes (pimping). And for all of the same reasons and more, they will raid hostess bars, soaplands, delivery health, or escort services.

 

[John Chavers]

I'm at a lost as to what your purpose is. Japanese police don't hold you as "punishment", unless they feel that they have a very strong case against you or can win in court

[1] Police don't make that decision, the prosecutor does.
[2] The police go to the prosecutor's office on Monday, not over the weekend.

These crime prevention pushes are normally temporary, as I said:

I would strongly suggest avoiding HB's in the Tokyo area for the next few months

They are targeting customers during this push, so why press your luck?

Sometimes I think you live in a different Japan than the rest of us:

 

[Sudsy]

I don't know why you are spreading misinformation. I'm at a lost as to what your purpose is. Japanese police don't hold you as "punishment", unless they feel that they have a very strong case against you or can win in court. If they have no case, they will usually IMMEDIATELY let the people go, give a warning, or work out a deal. This is a question of their honor, tradition, and public image, which police in Japan care about.

Actually, you're incorrect here, Solong.

If you are arrested (as opposed to being taken in for voluntary questioning) in Tokyo, because of centralised processing, you will be held for three days at a minimum.

Your first weekday morning you will be bussed to the prosecutor's office, along with all other arrestees, for processing. Even though your individual case will take minutes, you will remain there all day, shackled in a cell with about a dozen other arrestees. Talking is forbidden.

Your second weeekday morning will see you sent to a judge's office, where they will approve the first ten day extension of your arrest. Again, this is an all day affair, and you'll spend it in handcuffs and silence.

On your third day, they will give you a questioning period. At this point, they may deign to release you, but they have the option to hold you up to 13 days as the extension has already been approved.

It is also routine for the police to use dentention up to the maximum 23 days as a legal form of harassment, and to arrest and hold without indictment. Famously, Takafumi Horie was arrested in this fashion multiple times before his formal indictment for securities fraud during the Livedoor scandals.

 

[John Chavers]

Actually, you're incorrect here, Solong

Only here?

 

[Solong]

[1] Police don't make that decision, the prosecutor does.
[2] The police go to the prosecutor's office on Monday, not over the weekend.

These crime prevention pushes are normally temporary, as I said:


They are targeting customers during this push, so why press your luck?

Sometimes I think you live in a different Japan than the rest of us:

I'm going to call your bluff.

1) What happening bar have you ever been to?

If the answer is none, you should be a little more quiet. Because you are talking about things you don't know about.

Plus your focus on happening bars is weird to say the least, especially since if a police crackdown, it is generalized. There is NO campaign specific to happening bars and you don't control the police in every prefecture.

There have been wide crackdowns from pachinko, escort services, and hostess bars. If you want to give a warning, it should be to AVOID ALL such places.

2) Since when do Japanese police only do raids on Friday?

Let's think about this for a second. You are giving the impression that the Japanese police schedule raids only on Friday for the purpose of holding EVERYBODY they found in the bar until Monday.

This is beyond ridiculous.

3) Happening Bars Are Legal

You didn't address or even acknowledge that the happening bars are LEGAL. And that it's legal to be in the bar, thus you will NOT be arrested.

See, you purposely avoided this point, to give a false impression. Irregardless of a police campaign or not, they can't arrest and hold you for simply being in a bar.

You not understanding or acknowledging this, demonstrates your odd agenda.

 

[John Chavers]

If the answer is none, you should be a little more quiet. Because you are talking about things you don't know about.

Fallacy Bingo!

There is NO campaign specific to happening bars

The customers at Dark Night would like a word.

There have been wide crackdowns from pachinko, escort services, and hostess bars. If you want to give a warning, it should be to AVOID ALL such places.

Were the customers arrested? Go ahead and make that deai-kei kiddie diddler strawman again for a double-bingo bonus.

Since when do Japanese police only do raids on Friday?

Some of us have to work, so Friday nights and Saturdays are pretty much it for fun times.

Look, I get it: if people are worried about getting arrested and stay home, that'll cut into your fun. At least own your selfish reasons.

 

[Solong]

Actually, you're incorrect here, Solong.

If you are arrested (as opposed to being taken in for voluntary questioning) in Tokyo, because of centralised processing, you will be held for three days at a minimum.

Your first weekday morning you will be bussed to the prosecutor's office, along with all other arrestees, for processing. Even though your individual case will take minutes, you will remain there all day, shackled in a cell with about a dozen other arrestees. Talking is forbidden.

Your second weeekday morning will see you sent to a judge's office, where they will approve the first ten day extension of your arrest. Again, this is an all day affair, and you'll spend it in handcuffs and silence.

On your third day, they will give you a questioning period. At this point, they may deign to release you, but they have the option to hold you up to 13 days as the extension has already been approved.

It is also routine for the police to use dentention up to the maximum 23 days as a legal form of harassment, and to arrest and hold without indictment. Famously, Takafumi Horie was arrested in this fashion multiple times before his formal indictment for securities fraud during the Livedoor scandals.

Ah no. I know exactly what's up. First, if the Japanese do a raid, they don't have to arrest you. They will NEVER take you in, unless they have a defensible reason for it and specific law that you have violated.

This is a matter of honor, pride, and tradition of the Japanese police. They operate differently from many Western countries. They don't arrest and hold people randomly or who they don't plan on charging with something SPECIFIC.

If they have a warrant, that's because they have specific targets in mind. They will not arrest other targets, unless they are "caught in the act" of doing some illegal activity or have a direct connection.

Say they have a warrant for raiding a bar for drugs. Because you were simply drinking in the bar, they are not necessarily going to arrest you. They might even bring you in for questioning, but once they determine you have nothing to do with their main objective, then they let you go.

 

[John Chavers]

unless they have a defensible reason for it and specific law that you have violated

Like public indecency?

"Police also arrested seven of the 48 male and female customers (aged between 20 and 66) present at the time of the raid on the same charges."

Hey, 7 out of 48, those odds are pretty good.

 

[Solong]

Fallacy Bingo!


The customers at Dark Night would like a word.


Were the customers arrested? Go ahead and make that deai-kei kiddie diddler strawman again for a double-bingo bonus.


Some of us have to work, so Friday nights and Saturdays are pretty much it for fun times.

Look, I get it: if people are worried about getting arrested and stay home, that'll cut into your fun. At least own your selfish reasons.

Speaking of your fallacy, has EVERY happening bar in Japan been raided, or just SPECIFIC ones?

Ooopssss.... Your entire argument fell like a house of cards.

And the police arrested 7 of 48 people at Dark Knight. Do you understand why? That means they let 41 people GO!

They don't arrest you for being in the bar, because it's LEGAL to be in there. If they single out and target a SPECIFIC bar for a raid, it means that's usually based on reasoning that the police don't share with the public.

It means exactly what I stated in previous posts, is how it goes down. AND, I have talked to people that have been to Dark Knight, while I know you haven't. And notice how you avoided answering the question of what happening bar have you ever been to.

You are done, debate over and it's clear you are trying to talk about things you have no understanding of. Go back to trying to scare the tourist that don't know any better.

 

[Sudsy]

Ah no. I know exactly what's up. First, if the Japanese do a raid, they don't have to arrest you. They will NEVER take you in, unless they have a defensible reason for it and specific law that you have violated.

This is a matter of honor, pride, and tradition of the Japanese police. They operate differently from many Western countries. They don't arrest and hold people randomly or who they don't plan on charging with something SPECIFIC.

If they have a warrant, that's because they have specific targets in mind. They will not arrest other targets, unless they are "caught in the act" of doing some illegal activity or have a direct connection.
Say they have a warrant for raiding a bar for drugs. Because you were simply drinking in the bar, they are not necessarily going to arrest you. They might even bring you in for questioning, but once they determine you have nothing to do with their main objective, then they let you go.

You are ignoring what I wrote - I spoke not to the probability of arrest, I detailed what happens if you are arrested.

You also clearly haven't been through the system here, because if they aren't done questioning you by the time shift ends, it is routine for Tokyo cops to arrest you so that they can continue their questioning at leisure later.

 

[Solong]

You are ignoring what I wrote - I spoke not to the probability of arrest, I detailed what happens if you are arrested.

You also clearly haven't been through the system here, because if they aren't done questioning you by the time shift ends, it is routine for Tokyo cops to arrest you so that they can continue their questioning at leisure later.

But you avoided the very crucial point of if they will they arrest you or NOT. And they can bring you in, technically an arrest, then let you go that same day. Doesn't matter if the weekday or weekend, and I've seen it with my own eyes. You can't exclude this from the argument.

The Japanese police don't operate like those in Western countries. I was for a time, a club bouncer. I've seen exactly what the Japanese police do on a very practical level. Week after week.

The Japanese police have a very high level of discretion. Your argument means you lack understanding of the very wide latitude they have. They decide "on the ground" what they WANT to do, unless you are named on a warrant or they "catch you in the act".

 

[Sudsy]

But you avoided the very crucial point of if they will they arrest you or NOT. And they can bring you in, technically an arrest, then let you go. You can't exclude this from the argument.

The Japanese police don't operate like those in Western countries. I was for a time, a club bouncer. I've seen exactly what the Japanese police do on a very practical level. Week after week.

The Japanese police have a very high level of discretion. They decide on "the ground" what they WANT to do, unless you are named on a warrant or they "catch you in the act".

You keep saying the Japanese police don't operate like those in Western countries as if we don't already understand this. It's a different legal system, and there are different constraints on the police here, as well as different freedoms offered to them - Japanese cops can hold you and interrogate you for more than three weeks on simple suspicion, but they can't plant a wiretap. This is nothing new.

And yes, they do have a high level of discretion - they can, if they so decide, throw you in lockup for up to 23 days on a whim. Without a warrant.

If you claim to be familiar with the way the Japanese police operate, and still think they care about honor, pride, and tradition, then you clearly haven't dealt with them beyond the sidewalk. The rules change when they get people out of public view. I'm not going to get into my personal and professional dealings with the police here, but they are somewhat beyond what you would encounter working as a bouncer in a club.

 

[Solong]

Like public indecency?

Hey, 7 out of 48, those odds are pretty good. [emoji38]

While you are thinking that you made a point, it actually demonstrates your lack of understanding and experience.

I addressed this in earlier posts as being "caught in the act or naked" during a raid. That is, the bar security has to be incredibly bad or the bar a bad design and a open space.

Furthermore, the raided bar owners usually have a bad relationship with the police, where doing various non-bar related illegal activities, or have a bad relationship in their community (as unwanted or noisy). There is usually issues leading up to the raid.

Experienced happening bar customers can often spot places that may have problems in the future or are insecure. And swingers, AMONG THEMSELVES, talk about any place that's been raided and find out why and then exchange this information.

The odds of the police singling out a specific bar that you happen to be in and conducting a raid while the person is naked is incredibly unlikely. The police usually have better things to do, then to be "sex orgy police" and raid LOCKED private clubs, hotels, or residences. And supporting (sex orgy) police doing such raids is supporting the violating of basic human rights and oppression of sexual freedom. There will always be people fighting against this, and keep swinger bars and parties going. We are talking about a way of life, not just a specific place. Swingers can never be shut down.

 

[John Chavers]

Speaking of your fallacy, has EVERY happening bar in Japan been raided, or just SPECIFIC ones?
Ooopssss.... Your entire argument fell like a house of cards.
You are done, debate over and it's clear you are trying to talk about things you have no understanding of. Go back to trying to scare the tourist that don't know any better.

It was never a debate, just a statement of fact: customers have been arrested at HB's in Tokyo.

I was for a time, a club bouncer. I've seen exactly what the Japanese police do on a very practical level. Week after week.

Ah.

 

[Solong]

You keep saying the Japanese police don't operate like those in Western countries as if we don't already understand this. It's a different legal system, and there are different constraints on the police here, as well as different freedoms offered to them - Japanese cops can hold you and interrogate you for more than three weeks on simple suspicion, but they can't plant a wiretap. This is nothing new.

And yes, they do have a high level of discretion - they can, if they so decide, throw you in lockup for up to 23 days on a whim. Without a warrant.

If you claim to be familiar with the way the Japanese police operate, and still think they care about honor, pride, and tradition, then you clearly haven't dealt with them beyond the sidewalk. The rules change when they get people out of public view. I'm not going to get into my personal and professional dealings with the police here, but they are somewhat beyond what you would encounter working as a bouncer in a club.

They care about honor, pride, and tradition in terms of the appearance of what they are doing. True, they can be doing some very messed up stuff behind closed doors and out of public view, but they are very much concerned about their public image. It's a key point in dealing with them.

If you knew any club bouncers, particularly those owning security companies or have been doing it for years, you would understand how very wrong you are. Their practical understanding of how Japanese police operate is very important to vital. It can easily be the bouncer who is arrested and they get to watch police arrest people over and over again. This includes club customers, club owners and staff, and other bouncers who tell their stories and experiences.

 

[Solong]

It was never a debate, just a statement of fact: customers have been arrested at HB's in Tokyo.

I would strongly suggest avoiding HB's in the Tokyo area for the next few months. Shortest amount of time the police can hold is three days

There is a disconnect between these 2 statements. You didn't start by stating a fact about a SPECIFIC happening bar, but were making a blanket statement about ALL happening bars. Then nonsensically and incorrectly implied the police would have to hold you for 3 days.

Customers have been arrested at soaplands, fashion health clubs, and escort services. This is a fact too, but people keep going to those.

Lastly, it's in poor taste to use Muhammad Ali in a joke like that. Just not cool at all.

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