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Post-approach Game

SoLong gave his rule of thumb of 1/3 for an average guy

FWIW, I don't think that a "Rule of thumb" can be applied to a hugely wide range of guys. I mentioned in another thread that there are guys ranging from socially savvy, financially stable, fashion-conscious guys with an already large social circle who aren't scared of talking to women all the way to guys who have lived their life in front of a computer screen and are extremely under-socialized, fashion clueless, and terrified of talking to a hot girl. These guys are going to have vastly different results and paths through pickup so I think it's best not to give any numbers that they should expect and have them either exceed them and stop trying or underperform and get discouraged.

I think the only metric that matters is - are you doing better than you were 6 months ago? For some guys this means talking to 10 girls a week when before they were talking to none. For other guys this might be, getting a bunch of LINEs every time they go out when they weren't before. And for others still it might be getting a bunch of dates and banging a few where they couldn't before. Or even getting women who are closer to your ideal. The point is - there is no "rule of thumb" that I would give since I think it's more likely to mess you up and make you think there's something wrong with you, when there's not.
 
All of this is useless mental number crunching
I do think it's useful to get some realistic expectations. I suppose most guys getting into PUA think they can become a grandmaster in PUA. But grandmasters are outliers. If I told someone that he can become an NBA star by following this or that method, then he would think I'm an idiot.

My hypothesis is that PUA is not worth it for most of the guys. Maybe your bootcamp is different but from the reviews that I read online of other bootcamps and my own experience with self-help stuff in general, I would not recommend guys to read PUA stuff or go out seven nights a week.
 
Interesting thread. To summarize some of the numbers:

(Success = sex)
Ascent < 1% success rate
Some famous PUA 3% success rate
Japanese nanpa masters < 5% success rate
Sinapse 10% success rate
A beginning PUA 3% success rate according to the 1/3 rule

According to Sinapse only 1% of the guys can overcome the fear of approaching. It sounds pretty hopeless for the average guy then.

Also interesting how a 3% success rate sounds reasonable but 1/3 sex from a date doesn't.
3% is the random success rate a guy that doesn't have much experience, newbie to PUA, or isn't clear about what he is doing. It's only a rule of thumb for explaining EFFORT a newbie should exert, guage himself by in terms of if he is doing something wrong, and if he needs to more deeply analyze his methodology.

10% to 35% can be the success rate of experienced or skilled PUAs.

In the 1/3 rule concept, there are many areas where a guy can increase efficiency. Approach 27 women, get 9 contacts, go on 3 dates, have sex with 1.

The number of contacts per approach can increase. Instead of 9 out of 27, it can be 12. Instead of 3 dates out of 9 contacts, it can be 6 dates out of 12 contacts. Instead of 1 sexual encounter out of 3 dates, it could be 3 sexual encounters out of 6 dates.

Furthermore:

1) Approaches can be done very quickly like 9 in 1 hour, or getting 3 contacts in 1 hour.

Meaning, for 2 to 4 hours of effort (6 to 12 contacts obtained), it can result in 1 to 5 sexual encounters or girlfriends, overall.


2) Sex-friends or girlfriends can be accumulative

1 sexual encounter per week, can rather quickly end up becoming 3 sex-friends or girlfriends in 1 or 2 months.
 
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Sex-friends or girlfriends can be accumulative

This is also the most under-valued aspect of it all. It seems when we are discussing pickup and "Is it worth it?" this is totally ignored. They assume that every guy who gets into pickup is like me and wants to bang hundreds and hundreds of women (which IS a lot of work), have reckless threesomes / group sex, and pull the most anti-foreigner demographic in Japan. If you want a single girlfriend, this isn't really a very hard proposition, one you should be able to accomplish relatively quickly! It's also one that if we're talking in terms of "statistics" (which to me seems really vulgar when it has to do with real, beautiful, living women and fun, dynamic conversations) doesn't really even register. In other words, if you approach 1,000 women and only have a .1% success rate guys would jump on that and say "THATS NOT WORTH IT" but what if that .1% is your perfect girl and ideal match and you get married and live the rest of your life together. All of a sudden it doesn't seem like such a waste of time, does it?
 
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3% is the random success rate a guy that doesn't have much experience, newbie to PUA, or isn't clear about what he is doing. It's only a rule of thumb for explaining EFFORT a newbie should exert, guage himself by in terms of if he is doing something wrong, and if he needs to more deeply analyze his methodology.

Ok thanks for the additional info. So a normal non-PUA guy has a ~0% success rate. And a PUA newbie who puts in serious effort should get something like 3%. Ascent who despite serious effort has a 0% success rate, is doing something really wrong then according to you guys. According to Ascent for him to get to 3% it would take a incredible amount of time. Which I think makes sense too because it is more LIKELY that someone who had no success to continue to have no or very little success.

Solong what is your opinion on a bootcamp then?

what if that .1% is your perfect girl and ideal match and you get married and live the rest of your life together. All of a sudden it doesn't seem like such a waste of time, does it?
Then you are forgetting the negative effects. Getting 99.9% rejections is very painful and it's not just the time infield but also all the time thinking about it. In your case you could deal with it or even turn it into something positive. But for the normal guy I think the pain and frustration is not worth it.
 
Ok thanks for the additional info. So a normal non-PUA guy has a ~0% success rate. And a PUA newbie who puts in serious effort should get something like 3%. Ascent who despite serious effort has a 0% success rate, is doing something really wrong then according to you guys. According to Ascent for him to get to 3% it would take a incredible amount of time. Which I think makes sense too because it is more LIKELY that someone who had no success to continue to have no or very little success.

Solong what is your opinion on a bootcamp then?

A normal untrained guy making approaches, and relative to getting sex, can be at 3%

For non-PUA, the guy himself can have trouble tracking his own success rate, because he has never done so and his approach rate is so spaced out between attempts. However, if I threw the non-PUA on the street or club/bar and told him to go get women, would expect to see many at 3%.

Also many guys confuse and delude themselves with ONLY getting contact info versus actually having sex with a woman. That is, success at getting contact info can be 35%. But of the contacts collected, how many did he go on a date with or have sex with?

PUAs tend to do math and really track approach to success, where a non-PUA can be doing terrible, and has no clue. In fact, some guys are afraid to know how terrible they are and those are the ones that often never improve.

I'm not on here about any specific boot camps, that's an individual man's choice, where he feels coaching or more intense instruction is needed.
 
I think makes sense too because it is more LIKELY that someone who had no success to continue to have no or very little success.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting the same results you've always gotten

Then you are forgetting the negative effects. Getting 99.9% rejections is very painful and it's not just the time infield but also all the time thinking about it. In your case you could deal with it or even turn it into something positive. But for the normal guy I think the pain and frustration is not worth it.

I'm not forgetting the negative effects at all. I am very VERY familiar with rejections, more so possibly, than anyone here might imagine. But if you met such a girl as I describe (your ideal) you most certainly would think all your efforts were worth it, no matter the pain of rejections.

On top of that how bad is a rejection at the end of it? A girl you didn't know didn't really want to talk to you. It lowers your value as a human being none.

Pickup is like playing at a slot machine where the possible rewards are millions and millions of dollars (your ideal girl), and the negative outcome is just nothing - you get to play again. And the tokens are free.
 
Pickup is like playing at a slot machine where the possible rewards are millions and millions of dollars (your ideal girl), and the negative outcome is just nothing - you get to play again. And the tokens are free.
True from a logical point of view but the pain is still real. You could overcome it but I doubt most guys can.

I bet you are an optimistic person. If you read more on the science of "learned helplessness" then you will find it is very normal for people to become totally passive after receiving negative feedback again and again. Especially for pessimistic people. I asked many of my Japanese and foreign friends in Japan to do an optimism test and the results were pretty bad.
 
On top of that how bad is a rejection at the end of it? A girl you didn't know didn't really want to talk to you. It lowers your value as a human being none.

Pickup is like playing at a slot machine where the possible rewards are millions and millions of dollars (your ideal girl), and the negative outcome is just nothing - you get to play again. And the tokens are free.

Your time and self-esteem are worthless then? If I'm spending hours a day trying to meet a girl who will actually consider me worth meeting again and failing again and again, it has nothing but negative effects on the rest of my life.

It certainly isn't enjoyable talking to girls I might actually like who are with 95% certainty are going to give me the run around for a few weeks or ghost on me as soon as they are out of sight. Having zero expectations and playing the numbers game just makes things even more depressing. The whole process is exhausting and, objectively speaking, I am no closer to achieving any recognisable goal.
 
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True from a logical point of view but the pain is still real. You could overcome it but I doubt most guys can.

I bet you are an optimistic person. If you read more on the science of "learned helplessness" then you will find it is very normal for people to become totally passive after receiving negative feedback again and again. Especially for pessimistic people. I asked many of my Japanese and foreign friends in Japan to do an optimism test and the results were pretty bad.
Ultimately, what you are doing is having conversations with women!

It's only negative, relative to your mindset, and many guys learn to think differently. They see it as increasing their opportunities. The more women talked to, the more likely to find a sex-friend or long-term girlfriend
 
Ultimately, what you are doing is having conversations with women!

It's only negative, relative to your mindset, and many guys learn to think differently. They see it as increasing their opportunities. The more women talked to, the more likely to find a sex-friend or long-term girlfriend

Sure there are many guys who can change their mindset. But there are also many who cannot. And my hypothesis is that the second group is much larger. How many guys have a coach or a supportive social circle so that they can improve? Just reading PUA books and going out does not make it likely you develop the skills.

For the larger group there is a large time cost and mental cost with a low probability of success. So if you take the average over the first and second group then you get a negative return on investment.

I'm not against PUA but I think for the average guy who does not take a bootcamp, coaching or who does not have friends with PUA skills, the chances of getting results are low.
 
I'm not against PUA but I think for the average guy who does not take a bootcamp, coaching or who does not have friends with PUA skills, the chances of getting results are low.

Certainly, like many other recreative hobbies like car driving, skydiving, cooking, or even onanism (any bootcamps on that one ?)..

Having said that, I would be rather tempted to test PUA as a temporary hobby, just to have a few thrills and learn the mechanics.
Probably no need/urge to make it a life philosophy or let it change my core personality, and nothing miserable in failing at it either.
 
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Sure there are many guys who can change their mindset.

Changing your mindset is very much correct. Interestingly, there are some guys who this scares or who worry this is bad. But I think few people think they have the ideal mindset already (and if they do.. well that's pretty hubristic). I agree that not everybody is able to change their mindset and many people will fail, just like many people fail to meet their goals in many other areas - such as diet / exercise, finance / career, or anything else that requires discipline and sacrifice. I think the ultimate questions to ask yourself are:

1. How badly do you want more success with women? (Notice here that the goal is not necessarily "to bang 100 girls" or whatever else.. it's merely whatever YOU want to achieve)
2. Are you willing to change a LOT to get it? (Think - become more extroverted, sociable, masculine / confident, etc)

Because if you want it badly enough, you can achieve pretty much anything. Crucially, it's not all or none. There are a lot of guys as I mentioned who merely dabble a bit and get a girlfriend and this is very much a success for them! Again, this isn't particularly hard (or doesn't have to be, anyway).

The other questions to consider are

1. What are your other options for attaining that goal? If the goal is, for example, "Get a girlfriend", another way of doing it could be to join a lot of clubs and start trying to hang out with a lot of people - but this isn't mutually exclusive with pickup, in fact it would be helped by doing both consecutively. Importantly, if you neglect deep inner level change, youre not going to get or be able to keep a higher quality of woman, no matter where you meet her. If your goal is "sleep with a lot of new girls" this might be hard without paying a lot of money.
2. What are you doing better with your time? Examine your life critically. If you there are blocks of your time where you are doing things which aren't productive, those could be spent doing something productive - whether it's pickup, learning a language, getting fit, or trying to make more money. If every second of your life is packed with important, productive activities and you don't really care that much about having a hot girlfriend or a lot of casual sex, then yeah maybe pickup isn't for you.

I'm not against PUA but I think for the average guy who does not take a bootcamp, coaching or who does not have friends with PUA skills, the chances of getting results are low.

You make a good point - you certainly need a good, supportive community to keep giving you good feedback and keep you from venturing into the darker realms which lie along the path. Within pickup there is very much a "dark side" and a "light side" and navigating these are difficult on your own. Additionally, keeping motivation up and keeping up the learning is harder if you're the only one doing it. This is why pickup guys tend to congregate around forums, and more recently, in LINE groups (this is one reason why Jlair has died a lot recently - there are self-organized large LINE groups such as alumni groups where guys are giving each other instant feedback and advice)
 
Ascent who despite serious effort has a 0% success rate, is doing something really wrong then according to you guys. According to Ascent for him to get to 3% it would take a incredible amount of time. Which I think makes sense too because it is more LIKELY that someone who had no success to continue to have no or very little success.

Remember that my 1/3 rule is actually a little bit more than 3%. It's 1 sexual encounter out of 27 approaches. And the better guys are, the HIGHER their success percentage can be.

It's primarily a guide for how much effort you are putting in, to guage your performance, and to be BRUTALLY HONEST with yourself:

. Have you approached and talked to 27 women?

. How long did it take you to do 27 approaches?

. How many approaches have you converted into getting contact info?

. How many contacts are you converting into dates?

. How many dates are you converting into sexual encounters?

. How many sexual encounters are resulting into girlfriends or long term relationships?

And if you are getting "STUCK", you can now see where in the chain that's happening.

A guy might be doing 100 approaches, but get only 2 contacts/phone numbers. Appearance? Hygiene? Fashion? Conversation agility? etc...

A guy might be getting 15 dates, but only 1 sexual encounter. KINO/Physical Interaction? Setup of date/date locations? Panicking to ask to hotel/apartment? Terrible at creating romantic or sexual vibe? etc...

Ascent has to clarify where his sticking point is. Then proceed to fix it or get help fixing it. saying, "I'm failing" is just step 1. Now what the hell are you doing to FIX it? And if you can't figure it out by yourself, then by all means, get coaching.
 
Sticking point is probably converting contacts into dates.

I have no problem in terms of looks, am fluent in Japanese (N1, etc...), can establish rapport with men and women of all types easily enough.

From a random cold approach it would probably be 25% converting into contacts. If they start with "busy" or other excuses when I am asking for Line details I cut them loose as uninterested and count those as unsuccessful approaches as I'm trying to avoid collecting contacts from uninterested girls. In warmer bar and social circle type contexts it would be over 50% giving me their contacts, although these are far more sparingly encountered.

I've not had enough dates from this process (3 non-instadates - none from "cold" approaches, 2 instadates) to say much about the conversion of dates into sexual encounters. Online about 60-70% of dates converted into sexual encounters, though very few converted into repeat encounters. I'm still seeing a few of these girls and they don't seem to identify any issues with my looks, behaviour, sexual skills, etc.

The conversion of contacts into dates proceeds abysmally. Frequently a girl who was warm in person will never even read an initial follow up message, or will read and never respond. If they are responsive I would usually banter a little and then segue into arranging the meeting I proposed as the basis for getting their contact info in the first place, which then results in "busy" and a run-around which continues for 2 weeks until I delete them as definitively uninterested. Occasionally it transpires they have boyfriends (or say they do), or give silly far-future "next month" type date responses, which generally results in a cut.

I have no idea how to fix this, other than to try to drastically increase the number of girls I'm talking to. The only post-approach feedback I get is being ignored or some blatantly false excuses and a lack of interest. I have a lot of experience texting girls from online so I do at least know at the end of the day it is normally a huge waste of time and is only really effective for converting a "yes" girl into a "no" girl. What is going wrong with the approaches to cause this lack of interest, I cannot fathom.
 
Sticking point is probably converting contacts into dates.

From a random cold approach it would probably be 25% converting into contacts. If they start with "busy" or other excuses when I am asking for Line details I cut them loose as uninterested and count those as unsuccessful approaches as I'm trying to avoid collecting contacts from uninterested girls. In warmer bar and social circle type contexts it would be over 50% giving me their contacts, although these are far more sparingly encountered.

I've not had enough dates from this process (3 non-instadates - none from "cold" approaches, 2 instadates) to say much about the conversion of dates into sexual encounters. Online about 60-70% of dates converted into sexual encounters, though very few converted into repeat encounters. I'm still seeing a few of these girls and they don't seem to identify any issues with my looks, behaviour, sexual skills, etc.

The conversion of contacts into dates proceeds abysmally. Frequently a girl who was warm in person will never even read an initial follow up message, or will read and never respond. If they are responsive I would usually banter a little and then segue into arranging the meeting I proposed as the basis for getting their contact info in the first place, which then results in "busy" and a run-around which continues for 2 weeks until I delete them as definitively uninterested. Occasionally it transpires they have boyfriends (or say they do), or give silly far-future "next month" type date responses, which generally results in a cut.

1) Time-bridging and qualifying

A PUA's goal isn't to just go collect contact info. Some guys forget this, so overly focus on contact collection versus the end goal and overall purpose.

It's better to establish rapport, seduce, and setup a date with her in the future.

This is about preparing the woman for meeting her again in the future. A technique is, before asking for her contact info, is to ask her if she would like to meet again at some point in the future. Can be and often is best to be more general about the day, not pushy on a specific day.

Women that don't intend to ever reply or see you again, will tend to clue you in at this point. Usually, the BETTER you are at this, the HIGHER the contact to date ratio will be. It takes practice, and each guy has to develop his own style at doing this.

2) LOCATION Of Where Collecting Contacts From

I haven't talked about this before, but appears relevant in your case. Certain environments predispose women to be excessively negative towards any men approaching them. For instance, in that location, women are being warned against playboys, hustlers, con-men, or are hearing negative gossip or propaganda about the location. So when you are approaching women in such places, they can take an excessively negative view about the interaction, even if she is pretending to be polite.

Hub, particular clubs/bars, or even an entire area, etc... can have this negative reputation attached to them, so you may want to go elsewhere.

Try other locations, particularly those not associated with any negative gossip or reputations.

3) Positivity & Enthusiasm VS Negativity

This can be harder for some guys to do than others, and is difficult to explain, but I will try. It requires a guy to be more strongly mindful, self aware, and observant.

A) Are you coming off as untrustworthy, scary, creepy, desperate, or weird?

Some guys think they are giving off a certain vibe, but the woman is perceiving it in a different way. It is very important for a guy to put himself into a happy, positive vibe, playful, or "correct" frame of mind and behavior.

For example, I had abpal who was new to picking up women in Japan, and I would mentor him on how to do it. He would talk to Japanese women with this dead serious look on his face. When talking to me and pals, he was all happy and smiles, but to chicks he looked like an intimidating killer. It appeared to be some type of behavior for handling his nervousness. Some guys have odd expressions or ways that they carry themselves, that other view are odd, but they don't know about. Because with your pals, they aren't trying to date you, so ignore it. But women, they see it.

Women will pick up on your vibe, tone, body language, and facial expressions and REACT to them. Sometimes not immediately, because they are scared or being polite, but LATER. Because later they feel "safe" and it's easier to cut you off.

Try to understand the image that you are projecting. If you are not sure, have one of your wing-man pals evaluate you or you may need a PUA coach. Some other things that are helpful in this regard is exercise, Martial Arts/Kick-Boxing, or Yoga. These positively affect your confidence, physical posture, walk, stance, and body language.

B) Directing Women To Feel More Positive About You

This is a very tricky one. It's a concept that some people naturally understand and others don't, but can be taught. Good salesmen will also use this with people. This is where you say key words to people in order to relax and disarm them, and to establish greater rapport and comfort.

How would you like them to perceive you and the interaction you are having? Relaxing, fun, comfortable, trustworthy...? Then USE such POSITIVE words in your conversation and e-mail exchanges, and ELIMINATE negative language as much as possible. In VARIOUS cases, it can make the difference in what she thinks of you in "maybe" situations. Where she would be undecided or debating with herself about you, it can instead tip the balance in your favor.

Sometimes guys don't realize they are injecting negative language and a negative vibe into the interaction. A good example of a problem area is Western sarcasm. The guy thinks he is being witty and funny, but the Japanese woman might think he's an asshole.

4) Being Bad At E-mail/SMS Exchanges

This is also tricky. Save any of your e-mail or SMS interactions where you were successful at meeting, dating, and having sex with the woman. Use that as a template for how you correspond with future women. Success often builds on top of previous success. Keep streamlining, reducing, and simplifying it. Often there will be repeating patterns in the interactions, so use the more previously successful ones.

Coaching

If you get very stuck, you might want to consider a PUA coach to help you push through a problem area. They can observe you or your correspondence and offer specific advice.
 
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Remember that my 1/3 rule is actually a little bit more than 3%. It's 1 sexual encounter out of 27 approaches. And the better guys are, the HIGHER their success percentage can be.

It's primarily a guide for how much effort you are putting in, to guage your performance, and to be BRUTALLY HONEST with yourself:

. Have you approached and talked to 27 women?

. How long did it take you to do 27 approaches?

. How many approaches have you converted into getting contact info?

. How many contacts are you converting into dates?

. How many dates are you converting into sexual encounters?

. How many sexual encounters are resulting into girlfriends or long term relationships?

And if you are getting "STUCK", you can now see where in the chain that's happening.

A guy might be doing 100 approaches, but get only 2 contacts/phone numbers. Appearance? Hygiene? Fashion? Conversation agility? etc...

A guy might be getting 15 dates, but only 1 sexual encounter. KINO/Physical Interaction? Setup of date/date locations? Panicking to ask to hotel/apartment? Terrible at creating romantic or sexual vibe? etc...

Ascent has to clarify where his sticking point is. Then proceed to fix it or get help fixing it. saying, "I'm failing" is just step 1. Now what the hell are you doing to FIX it? And if you can't figure it out by yourself, then by all means, get coaching.

The 1/3 rule seems pretty practical now that you explain it like this. I heard of the 3 second rule before but never heard of this though. Is this something that you just observed yourself? Just out of pure interest, are you a PUA coach or just a "natural"?
 
The 1/3 rule seems pretty practical now that you explain it like this. I heard of the 3 second rule before but never heard of this though. Is this something that you just observed yourself? Just out of pure interest, are you a PUA coach or just a "natural"?
I was and still primarily a swinger. I don't earn my living as a PUA coach.

My pals were "naturals" and swingers. I learned a lot through hanging out with them, and then discovered PUA, and added it as a tool to put together a methodology in my mind. I prefer understanding each part of the seduction process, versus going about it being random and mindless.

Swingers also can have a higher hurdle than the average PUA, because the focus is hooking up and identifying women that would want to try the swinger lifestyle, sex orgies, or are more open-minded about sex in general.
 
My pals were "naturals" and swingers. I learned a lot through hanging out with them, and then discovered PUA, and added it as a tool to put together a methodology in my mind.

I guess your swinger pals have some good stories about hiding from angry husbands, getting arrested and so on.
 
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I guess your swinger pals have some good stories about hiding from angry husbands, getting arrested and so on.
If you think that, then you completely don't understand swinging or have no idea about it whatsoever.

You appear to be confusing cheating in a traditional relationship and swinging. One is doing something undisclosed or having secret affairs behind their partners back, while the other is being upfront, honest, and open with each other.

A husband or boyfriend that is a swinger, would be sharing his wife/girlfriend with other swingers. Their view is often that their love for each other is above sex, and are emotionally mature. They don't act childishly nor is their relationship consumed by selfishness and jealousy.

A swinger couple doesn't cheat behind each other backs, but are open-minded and share sexual adventures and experiences together. They KNOW what the other is doing. Also, various couples have "declared" or "undeclared" open-marriages. They allow each other to see others, or it's "don't ask, don't tell".

In court, if the couple has an agreed upon open-marriage or are swingers, a judge would take that into account and strongly be inclined to throw any such related cases out. People who are swingers or are in open-marriages are VERY unlikely to even go to court over it.

Also, if the couple is NOT married and simply boyfriend and girlfriend, even if caught "cheating" there is usually very little grounds to take it to court in that context.
 
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The 1/3 rule seems pretty practical now that you explain it like this. I heard of the 3 second rule before but never heard of this though. Is this something that you just observed yourself? Just out of pure interest, are you a PUA coach or just a "natural"?

3 second rule

I disagree with this for Japan. I notice that Japanese women tend to be more fearful, panic, or paranoid. Using the Western PUA rule will cause many Japanese women to jump, act or pretend to be startled, or even "Bikkuri shita! (surprised)" type comments. Anything out of the ordinary to many Japanese women, can be something surprising, startling, or unsettling.

Note- This can also include Western fashion or clothing, or your physical size (tall or big). The more unlike the type of clothing or fashion styles common in that area, the more you can get surprised reactions when you start conversations. In general if you are wearing a business suit, business casual, or well known more expensive looking designer clothing than reactions tend to be more neutral. With physical size, this can't be helped, so what you want to do is move slowly and calmly when close to Japanese women. Some foreign guys are unconsciously or unknowingly too excited and sudden in their movements, combined with their physical size, various Japanese women will act like you are trying to hurt them or do something bad to them. So she may overreact, panic, etc...

It's been my observation that Japanese women tend to be more panicky around strangers (including other Japanese), foreigners, or new places for them. Even though she is Japanese, she may be from out of town or a different prefecture, so new to the area. So, it's better if you give it 30 to 90 seconds, where she can be comfortable with your physical presence, before you talk. Basically get near her, pretend not to be aware or looking at her, then slowly and smoothly begin shifting your position and start talking to her. What you say should be in a very distinct and clear voice.

By the way, women use this "get near the person" technique too. But they are often way more sly or coy about it. She will get close to the guy that she likes, but not directly interact with him or wait for him to notice and make the 1st move. Be aware of this, as sometimes you can identify women that are interested in you and would very much welcome you starting a conversation with them.

In the club, bar, cafe, train, etc... situation you may have 60 seconds or so to spare before talking. However, in certain street approaches, you don't have that time. So here the 3 second rule is more a factor. You either approach and talk, or she is walking away from you. In that context, if you like what you see, then do immediately approach her. However, do so from her side and opposite of her handbag. Avoid talking to women from behind them or directly walking up to women face to face, both can cause women to panic, and her imagining you are an attacker, thief, etc... In a street approach stand or walk up next to her, opposite her handbag, and when parallel then talk. On Japanese streets; smaller, boyish looking, and skinnier guys have a natural advantage. Their physical presence causes less of an reaction, so be aware of this and use an approach style or setting that works best for you.
 
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Please don't spread the news beyond the TAG community, but my highly placed sources tell me that the Japanese government has plans to have kobans dispense free valium and xanax doses to young (Japanese) women in areas where significant numbers of gaijin are frequently seen to quell the growing number of panic attacks among the female popolation. The plan is called Project Chill.

(Seriously, specifically what do you mean by "panic", "overreact" etc? I might be forgetting something, but I can't reacll a single instance in my 25 years of experiences in Japan when I have seen a woman do what I would call panicing or greatly overreating to interactions with foreigners.)

-Ww
 
Thank you Solong for your kind feedback!

1) Time-bridging and qualifying

Always trying this... enquire as to her immediate plans, establish if a venue change is possible, if it is ask if she would like to eat/drink/be taken to an interesting restauraunt, if not possible or if declined frame an offer of some further meeting and ask for contacts and depart if she is not "busy this month" or something.

Presumably I'm just not very good at this. Also I end up with the details of the odd girl who apparently has a boyfriend.

2) LOCATION

It never occurred to me that specific venues in a class of venue could differ so radically in terms of success, but examining my memories I see now that girls in certain bars without exception never responded or were willing to meet, whilst those in others were far warmer. Probably also my area is not quite the same dynamic as central Tokyo. Lesson learned!

3)Positivity & Enthusiasm VS Negativity
A) Are you coming off as untrustworthy, scary, creepy, desperate, or weird?
B) Directing Women To Feel More Positive About You


Trying to work out what impression I'm leaving on a Japanese woman who refuses to interact with me is of course a major issue. If they are anything more than cordial and give a number, it usually takes days or weeks until it is clear they will not be seeing me.

By the way, women use this "get near the person" technique too. But they are often way more sly or coy about it. She will get close to the guy that she likes, but not directly interact with him or wait for him to notice and make the 1st move. Be aware of this, as sometimes you can identify women that are interested in you and would very much welcome you starting a conversation with them.

I have seen this - girls making eye contact, taking the next seat, sighing, fidgeting, and of course exhibiting a favourable response when spoken to. Can't say they panned out but they were warm.

I cannot believe it is wholly conscious though - I have never seen anyone start a conversation with a stranger in most of the locations it takes place in (including the Starbucks I was thrown out of), so it doesn't seem women doing it can have any realistic expectation of it provoking an interaction unless absolutely blatant. And of course it is nearly impossible to identify this kind of oblique invitation to approach in most situations.


However, in certain street approaches, you don't have that time. So here the 3 second rule is more a factor. You either approach and talk, or she is walking away from you. In that context, if you like what you see, then do immediately approach her.

I heard of the 3 second rule in PUA literature, and it is also mentioned in Japanese nanpa writings. They also mention approaching from opposite to any bag and from ahead and to the side if possible. Personally, in my case I'm afraid it would be difficult to do this without scaring the girl...

(Seriously, specifically what do you mean by "panic", "overreact" etc? I might be forgetting something, but I can't reacll a single instance in my 25 years of experiences in Japan when I have seen a woman do what I would call panicing or greatly overreating to interactions with foreigners.)

Do you ever actually interact in Japanese with girls you aren't plying with cash in some way? Whether they can be blamed on the instigator being non-Japanese is one thing, but there are some extraordinarily fearful and highly strung women about here. Now public enemy number one for talking to strangers in a Starbucks, I know this only too well!
 
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Please don't spread the news beyond the TAG community, but my highly placed sources tell me that the Japanese government has plans to have kobans dispense free valium and xanax doses to young (Japanese) women in areas where significant numbers of gaijin are frequently seen to quell the growing number of panic attacks among the female popolation. The plan is called Project Chill.

(Seriously, specifically what do you mean by "panic", "overreact" etc? I might be forgetting something, but I can't reacll a single instance in my 25 years of experiences in Japan when I have seen a woman do what I would call panicing or greatly overreating to interactions with foreigners.)

-Ww
Ww, forgive us if we get confused, because it appears your claimed specialty is buying women. And then apparently her being the perfect actress in proportion to cash being thrown at her. After that, you gave the impression of social circle magic, where you didn't have to do anything but focus on your hobby. And all the women just kind of magically gravitated towards your natural chrisma, interrupted your hobby activities, and approached you for a date. That's great if you got like that, but that doesn't happen for 90% of guys on planet Earth.

The type of advice in this thread is for guys who are not buying women and have the balls to proactively approach who they are interested in directly. The dynamics of how that works and the situation is different. This is after all a nampa thread.
 
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B) Directing Women To Feel More Positive About You[/B]

1) Time-bridging and qualifying

Presumably I'm just not very good at this. Also I end up with the details of the odd girl who apparently has a boyfriend.

Her Boyfriend(s) And Her "Male Friends"

First, women who are healthy/slim and good looking, are very likely to have some guy(s) "orbiting" around them in some way. Expect yourself to be in COMPETITION for her attention and affection.

That's why you should be keen on how you are presenting yourself. You could be the 2nd or 3rd guy to approach her that day.

Furthermore, I never let a woman casually mentioning they have a boyfriend or dating a guy deter me, unless she mentions numerous time and is clearly using to cut the conversation off. Because many women have confused or complicated situations, or she is CLEARLY interested in us continuing the conversation. So, I allow the situation to play itself out and see where it will go.

If she says, she is married, then I politely drop talking to her. I don't mess with married women, unless she is in an open-marriage or in a swinger context where the husband is offering his wife to me.

Time-bridging, Location, Her Perception Of You, & Injecting Positivity

They are all related. A problem in one area, can affect the other. It might help if you think of it like a performance or presentation, or even like sales or acting. You want to be very silky smooth in how you conduct yourself. How would Harrison Ford, Denzel Washington, or Brad Pitt approach a woman? Find that inner charming person in yourself, and bring that out.

As with the pal I mentioned previously, he became way too serious when approaching women that he looked like a killer or odd. He was unknowingly injecting unwanted negative energy in the interaction. His eyebrows pressed downwards, he didn't smile... No! Better happy and playful, because that can bring her mood UP!

Happy Positive Sexual Women & Men

You want to act like and LOOK for corresponding positive energy. If her energy/vibe is neutral, you can often raise her's. YOUR smile, can have others SMILE in return. People tend to be physically drawn to the type of energy/vibe that you put out. It also makes it easier for you to IDENTIFY women with that type of positive energy.

So what's the result? Those women will statistically be more likely to respond and go on dates with you.

Injecting Positive Energy

Let's say 2 guys met 2 different women named Yuki, at 7:30pm in a coffee shop next to the train station. They both had what they thought was a fantastic conversation.

Guy 1- Goes home and does not message the woman back for 2 days (because he heard that's what cool guys do). Then sends a message-

"Hey Yuki, it's Frank from the other day. Remember me? I just finished my work. It was a terrible day, because my asshole boss gave me more work to do. Anyway, how was your work day?"

Guy 2- When he returns home that night, before going to bed, he sends Yuki a message-

"Our conversation was very enjoyable and it is great that we met. Happily looking forward to us talking again soon."

So, what's the difference?

Guy 2-

Has framed their meeting, previous conversation, and possible future conversation/meeting in a positive light. She then is more likely to remember guy 2 and think of him positively.

Guy 1-

A) She's more likely to have forgot who the hell he was.

B) As time has passed, mention him later to a girlfriend or co-worker, who might then tell her about all kinds of paranoid scary psycho playboy killer stories. So now her girlfriend negatively affects how she remembers him.

C) Associate his negative comments with him. When she thinks of Frank, she now has a negative image.

Guy 2 is statistically more likely to convert the contact into a date, then Guy 1. When possible, you want to inject positivity into the correspondence with the woman, especially prior to any 1st dates.
 
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