SESTA/FOSTA Law Passage > What it means for TAG?

[Babaram]

I just googled « escorts in NYC » and still got many many results

The fact that people still exist does not prove that people are not persecuted.

 

[Frenchy]

The fact that people still exist does not prove that people are not persecuted.

True. But maybe some people deserve to be...
politics is never about trying to please everyone, personnally I don’t care if a few websites that indeed helped pedophiles or traffickers are shut down . « Legitimate prostitution » will always find ways to take place anyway.

 

[Sudsy]

True. But maybe some people deserve to be...
politics is never about trying to please everyone, personnally I don’t care if a few websites that indeed helped pedophiles or traffickers are shut down . « Legitimate prostitution » will always find ways to take place anyway.

The problem is that it drives everything underground. And that makes things more dangerous for the legitimate providers.

 

[impish]

I just googled « escorts in NYC » and still got many many results

Just because it's signed into law doesn't mean it has taken effect. The law isn't expected to take effect until Jan 2019. I suspect those numbers will go down over the next 6-8 months.

 

[Frenchy]

The problem is that it drives everything underground. And that makes things more dangerous for the legitimate providers.

We’ll see. I bet you that in one year if you google « NyC (or LA or Chicago) escorts » you will still get many answers. But indeed probably not in classifieds or otherwise poorly monitored sites.

 

[impish]

Almost everyone voted for it

I am not surprised. Everyone in congress wants to look like they are doing the right thing. When it comes to Human Trafficking it's a no brainer for many politicians to just jump on the bandwagon and not look at everything that the law does beyond it's touted agenda. Also with the crazy religious extremists of the south, it is pretty much a given that anything anti sex work will get their representatives signature.

 

[Babaram]

True. But maybe some people deserve to be...
politics is never about trying to please everyone, personnally I don’t care if a few websites that indeed helped pedophiles or traffickers are shut down . « Legitimate prostitution » will always find ways to take place anyway.

So all roads should be closed because there are speeders?

 

[User#8628]

The problem is that it drives everything underground. And that makes things more dangerous for the legitimate providers.

This is EXACTLY what they want to reach.

The guys who made this law are mongers themselves and they want to put the girls in a difficult position.

No screening possible, less power, more dangerous situations and girls cant go to the police of course.

They don't want prostitution to disappear, they want to take the control away from the women.

 

[Wwanderer]

Thats a Christian origin interpretation. Jews see both of them at fault for different reasons but its not "her fault first so women bad" at all. In actuality their disobedience isn't even important since it was necessary for humans to leave Eden anyway.

Just in general, most Christian interpretations or understandings of the Torah are way off base. Its partly due to repeated mistranslations and partly because they rejected the owner/operator manual which details how the law actually works.

This isn't the thread to go into detail on this so I'll stop here.

I agree that this isn't a good place to debate the topic, nor am I either interested or expert enough to want to pursue it, so let me end by mentioning that in my personal experience with Jewish culture and Jewish people (all of my in-laws, many many friends and colleagues, and a rather distinguished Jewish feminist critic and writer), I haven't seen any evidence that the religion is fundamentally any less misogynist and anti-sexual than the other two Levantine religions which it pre-dates...at least not as practiced in the modern world and through much of history.

You/anyone could try googling "women in judaism" or "misogyny in judaism" etc to find vast amounts of material on the topic.

Evidently there are written records to support the instance I pointed out.

Yes, and that is probably the best evidence we have about the topic (and many others), but these writings are generally highly interpreted and debated by scholars, often without the benefit of knowing the context in which the writer was working. And at best, they represent the views/understandings of one (generally) atypical person or a very few such people at a particular time etc. Imagine trying to reconstruct our culture's views and practices regarding sex, prostitution, women etc from a few sentences or a single book etc published by some random person for some random purpose in the current world. Basically, there is a good case to be made that historians vastly overestimate what we can confidently say about ancient cultures. But this is another tangent...

Either way, @User#8628's point stands. Sacred activity or civic duty or (most likely) something of both, there have been cultures in which prostitution was not a despised and stigmatized profession. Indeed, in today's Western World, there are at least some subcultures in which it is not.

-Ww

 

[User#8628]

Not just the Abrahamic religions, all the (7?) major religions are anti sex and women.

See, even Buddhism discriminates against women.
Also someone in another thread mentioned that in Vietnam (buddhist or communist country?) Vietnamese women cant sleep in your hotel room if you are not married. Super conservative law, a surpise to me from a non Abrahamic country.

 

[Wwanderer]

Not just the Abrahamic religions, all the (7?) major religions are anti sex and women.

See, even Buddhism discriminates against women.
Also someone in another thread mentioned that in Vietnam (buddhist or communist country?) Vietnamese women cant sleep in your hotel room if you are not married. Super conservative law, a surpise to me from a non Abrahamic country.

I agree; misogyny and discrimination against women exists in all or nearly all cultures and religions, and the underlying reasons are probably more along the lines you posted about above rather than being fundamentally religious in nature. The Levantine faiths tend to make the situation worse because they make a close connection, or even a direct identification, between sex (and in fact all sorts of physical pleasures) and sin or evil. There are major non-Levantine religions which do not have that same extremely negative view.

-Ww

 

[Babaram]

Not just the Abrahamic religions, all the (7?) major religions are anti sex and women.

See, even Buddhism discriminates against women.
Also someone in another thread mentioned that in Vietnam (buddhist or communist country?) Vietnamese women cant sleep in your hotel room if you are not married. Super conservative law, a surpise to me from a non Abrahamic country.

We are in Japan. Shinto doesn't give a damn. Remember: According to Shinto belief, the world was saved from eternal darkness by a stripper.

 

[bbuy]

Frankly, it was already getting to where it was nearly impossible to P4P as a newbie in the US -- unless you took a gamble on BP or similar. This whole business just puts the last nail in the coffin for me; I'm sticking to saving up and going overseas every couple of years. It sucks in a lot of ways, but that's life, I guess.

 

[Wwanderer]

I'm sticking to saving up and going overseas every couple of years. It sucks in a lot of ways, but that's life, I guess.

You might consider going to Canada for p4p trips. Some very nice scenes there, especially in Montreal, and perhaps not that far, depending on where you are located in the US.

-Ww

 

[bbuy]

You might consider going to Canada for p4p trips. Some very nice scenes there, especially in Montreal, and perhaps not that far, depending on where you are located in the US.

-Ww

Hard enough to afford with my situation either way, so I figure I might as well keep saving for a bit longer and head to Asia or elsewhere instead lol

 

[User#8628]

We are in Japan. Shinto doesn't give a damn. Remember: According to Shinto belief, the world was saved from eternal darkness by a stripper.

Exactly.

Sadly Japan has adopted some bad things from Buddhism and American influence.

However, in very old Japan the women were the spiritual leaders from their clans, i believe.

 

[TheScientist]

You/anyone could try googling "women in judaism" or "misogyny in judaism" etc to find vast amounts of material on the topic.

What you get there is a bunch of secular authors with glaringly bad understanding of even the fundamentals.

Basically like how the barely literate Economist stringer writes about Japan.

Sadly some of these writers accumulate degrees and accolades despite their ignorance.

but these writings are generally highly interpreted and debated by scholars, often without the benefit of knowing the context in which the writer was working.

Context being legal and temple records not 3rd party observers.

The Levantine faiths tend to make the situation worse because they make a close connection, or even a direct identification, between sex (and in fact all sorts of physical pleasures) and sin or evil.

Rather than toss the baby out with the bath water you could admit you aren’t informed enough to make that generalization. Just saying.

 

[Wwanderer]

Rather than toss the baby out with the bath water you could admit you aren’t informed enough to make that generalization. Just saying.

Actually I'd stand by my generalization.

Although you assert that it isn't correct, nothing you've said persuades me that I'm wrong. You haven't explained your expertise or provided any references for or explanations of your assertion that women and sexuality are regarded in a more enlightened and fair way in Judaism than in Christianity and Islam. I do accept that there may be versions of Judaism, possibly even the "original" or "correct" (whatever that might mean) version, that are superior in these respects to the more common practices of the religion, but the same could be said for Christianity and Islam I think.

Moreover, I know for *certain* (i.e., first hand personal knowledge) that there are at least some "authorities" within the Jewish religion (including some rabbis) who acknowledge and criticize the misogyny in their own religious traditions. Obviously they could be wrong, and you could be right, but the matter is apparently at least open to dispute among "experts".

I guess you know why there are now oranges on many seder plates (at least in the US)...a great story imo (and true afaik).

-Ww

 

[Sudsy]

why there are now oranges on many seder plates

That story makes me smile.

 

[Wwanderer]

That story makes me smile.

Me too, it is perfect...the perfect response.

-Ww

 

[Babaram]

You might consider going to Canada for p4p trips. Some very nice scenes there, especially in Montreal, and perhaps not that far, depending on where you are located in the US.

-Ww

You are not up to date on the Great White North. There, the Johns now get arrested, the Does get free and can advertise what is illegal to buy.

 

[TheScientist]

Actually I'd stand by my generalization.

Although you assert that it isn't correct, nothing you've said persuades me that I'm wrong. You haven't explained your expertise or provided any references for or explanations of your assertion that women and sexuality are regarded in a more enlightened and fair way in Judaism than in Christianity and Islam. I do accept that there may be versions of Judaism, possibly even the "original" or "correct" (whatever that might mean) version, that are superior in these respects to the more common practices of the religion, but the same could be said for Christianity and Islam I think.

Moreover, I know for *certain* (i.e., first hand personal knowledge) that there are at least some "authorities" within the Jewish religion (including some rabbis) who acknowledge and criticize the misogyny in their own religious traditions. Obviously they could be wrong, and you could be right, but the matter is apparently at least open to dispute among "experts".

I guess you know why there are now oranges on many seder plates (at least in the US)...a great story imo (and true afaik).

-Ww

Sounds like all you information has come from American Reform Jews. I spent some years in yeshivas in the US & Israel and even though I’m no longer observant I can probably out reason any Reform Rabbi on matters of Jewish law.

As for the ones who promote the addition to the Seder plate, I’ll venture to guess they aren’t familiar with the role of the Israelite women in the Exodus (hint: it was the men who were mostly scared to leave) nor would they be able to expound upon why the daughters of Lot were meritorious, the importance of Tamar prostituting herself, or the right of inheritance and the shares of the land of Canaan given to the daughters of Zelophehed.

Regarding sex and marriage, the Talmud goes on at length about a mans obligations to a woman, not the other way around. One point is that by Jewish law a man is obliged to see to a woman’s orgasm before his own.

 

[Babaram]

My eyes definitely glaze over

 

[Babaram]

For those who still have moral qualms exercising our wonderful hobby, I recommend to

• Get over it, or
• GTFO

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and if you feel ashamed, then you have been had. Sex is one of the most natural urges. Those who deny you sex, control you. Liberate yourself. If your religion tells you that P4P is bad, then stop doing it, or find a better religion. Sex is part of us like eating or drinking. Home cooking, or going to a restaurant is up to you. Just do it.

 

[Wwanderer]

For those who still have moral qualms exercising our wonderful hobby, I recommend to

• Get over it, or
• GTFO

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and if you feel ashamed, then you have been had. Sex is one of the most natural urges. Those who deny you sex, control you. Liberate yourself. If your religion tells you that P4P is bad, then stop doing it, or find a better religion. Sex is part of us like eating or drinking. Home cooking, or going to a restaurant is up to you. Just do it.

One like is far too few for this one!

-Ww