The Issue Of Weight

[roots reggae]

I think I can significantly sharpen/clarify our point of disagreement on this topic.

I agree with all that you say in the above quote and have said the same thing in my previous posts in this thread. That SWs will have their feelings hurt by criticism of their bodies and will have to deal with it is indeed a "fact of life" (though an unfortunate one imo). However, my strong disagreement begins with what *appears* to be your conclusion that this fact removes any obligation others might have to be considerate of their feelings when discussing their bodies. My conclusion, and I think also @hkAlone 's, is that this "fact of life" implies that we should be more considerate of their feelings, not less. In other words, they have it hard (in this regard), let's do all we can to make it easier for them rather than "piling on" and making it harder.

I find it very hard to understand the logic that leads to your (apparent) conclusion and very much doubt that you would apply the same logic in other contexts. For example, you mentioned that you are often subject to unfair criticism that you find hurtful (but deal with) in your work. Would you conclude that if we were to encounter each other in some professional context in which I could reasonably be expected to criticize your work that I should not feel obligated to be fair? My conclusion would be rather that I should try especially hard to be fair.

And one can go reductio ad absurdum for this sort of logic. Someone who chooses a career in the military or in law enforcement has to accept and deal with the "fact of life" that sometimes other people will try to harm or kill him/her. Does this make trying to harm or kill him/her any less wrong? Or one could say that it is a "fact of life" that a black or latino living in the US will encounter and have to deal with racial bias and discrimination, but I doubt that you would conclude that this makes treating such people in a racist way any more acceptable. In fact, I'd guess that you would agree with me that it makes it less acceptable, if anything.



Of course, and it is a good thing indeed, but even if "name-calling, personal attacks ..." were to take place, I would not take it personally or be particularly hurt. Those things are a simple "fact of life" in internet discussions. If you are going to participate in discussion threads on almost any internet forum, you can expect to see and receive some of that. It is simply another unfortunate "fact of life", but of course that truth does not make "name-calling, personal attacks ..." any better or more acceptable behavior, at least not imo.

-Ww

My friend, you make your points with clarity and sound logic.

I just have one more response to your posts-I think.

I am not sure why I became the villain in this whole fiasco. I never made a personal attack on anyone. I told a little joke that some found funny and others found offensive. Hey, that's the nature of humor.

Humor is reason gone mad. Groucho Marx

It is a curious fact that people are never so trivial as when they take themselves seriously. Oscar Wilde

Humor is merely tragedy standing on its head with its pants torn. Irvin S. Cobb

Humor is perhaps a sense of intellectual perspective: an awareness that some things are really important, others not; and that the two kinds are most oddly jumbled in everyday affairs. Christopher Morley

Humor is just another defense against the universe. Mel Brooks

Humor is everywhere, in that there's irony in just about anything a human does. Bill Nye

Humor is a double-edged sword. It can be sharp and cutting or it can fall flat. A Roots Reggae Original

As I've stated before in this thread,

"Comments made on TAG have a primarily "monger" audience. That thread was definitely so, as was the plump AV star thread.

And audience is one of the factors when considering word tone, choice, and content.

Comments are not directed, for the most part, towards the Sex Worker, SW, on TAG. If the thread was a more general one, directed at both men and women, of course, the tone, word choice, and content would have been different."

I challenge anyone to find even one instance on this board when I have been directly (or indirectly, the 3P being a area of contention) cruel or unfair to even one of our TAG ladies. To the contrary, I have been empathetic, supportive, and even admiring of each and every one of these fine ladies. I might add, and fact I am, that this cannot be said of the some interactions of the ladies among themselves.

 

[TheScientist]

My friend, you make your points with clarity and sound logic.

I just have one more response to your posts-I think.

I am not sure why I became the villain in this whole fiasco. I never made a personal attack on anyone. I told a little joke that some found funny and others found offensive. Hey, that's the nature of humor.

Humor is reason gone mad. Groucho Marx

It is a curious fact that people are never so trivial as when they take themselves seriously. Oscar Wilde

Humor is merely tragedy standing on its head with its pants torn. Irvin S. Cobb

Humor is perhaps a sense of intellectual perspective: an awareness that some things are really important, others not; and that the two kinds are most oddly jumbled in everyday affairs. Christopher Morley

Humor is just another defense against the universe. Mel Brooks

Humor is everywhere, in that there's irony in just about anything a human does. Bill Nye

Humor is a double-edged sword. It can be sharp and cutting or it can fall flat. A Roots Reggae Original

As I've stated before in this thread,

"Comments made on TAG have a primarily "monger" audience. That thread was definitely so, as was the plump AV star thread.

And audience is one of the factors when considering word tone, choice, and content.

Comments are not directed, for the most part, towards the Sex Worker, SW, on TAG. If the thread was a more general one, directed at both men and women, of course, the tone, word choice, and content would have been different."

I challenge anyone to find even one instance on this board when I have been directly (or indirectly, the 3P being a area of contention) cruel or unfair to even one of our TAG ladies. To the contrary, I have been empathetic, supportive, and even admiring of each and every one of these fine ladies. I might add, and fact I am, that this cannot be said of the some interactions of the ladies among themselves.

One thing is for sure, you arent a villain and did no wrong.

 

[Wwanderer]

I am not sure why I became the villain in this whole fiasco.

To be clear I don't for a moment regard you as a villain in this business or in general. We have different opinion; that's all. But even if I am 100% right [nearly always the case, btw ], at worst you just had a momentary lapse of judgement and sensitivity...something that befalls pretty much everyone occasionally. Who here (or anywhere) has never regretted anything they said or the way they said it? Imo, you should regret the 3p crack; I would if it had been me. However, I have for sure said and done more offensive things in my life with no ill intent.

"Comments made on TAG have a primarily "monger" audience. That thread was definitely so, as was the plump AV star thread.

And audience is one of the factors when considering word tone, choice, and content.

Comments are not directed, for the most part, towards the Sex Worker, SW, on TAG. If the thread was a more general one, directed at both men and women, of course, the tone, word choice, and content would have been different."

I think this is a very important point. A public internet forum can feel like a private space to long term and active members such as most of those participating in that thread, but it isn't really. Consider the following points:

- Clearly at least some of the ladies of TAG were reading it and have asked us to be more respectful and sensitive when discussing our tastes in women's bodies. @MissInsomnia essentially requested it in the original thread, and @User#16452 did so in starting this thread. Moreover, if you have a look at which posts in this thread have been liked by many of the other women active on TAG and which have not, it is quite clear that they have similar opinions. In effect, they are saying, "Ladies are present. Please act accordingly." Since we nearly all greatly value their presence and participation on TAG (don't we?), shouldn't we accept and respect that request?

- There are A LOT of people reading TAG threads who post little or not at all on TAG, some do not even have accounts. What do we really know about that audience? Imo, you ought to post in TAG public threads as though what you write is being published in the newspaper for all to see. Basically it is. You have no idea who sees it, now or in the future, and no way of controlling it. For all we know the AV star whose body was being critiqued may see the thread; perhaps she googles for occurrences of her name or her photos or her URLs etc. Or maybe someone will bring it to her attention. Probably not, but it is certainly quite possible.

- I for one don't buy the "a primarily 'monger' audience" argument even if it is accurate and only a small fraction of the audience is made up of SWs, or women in general. Would it be OK to make mocking jokes about, say, French people to an audience which contained only a small number of citizens of that country and a large majority of, say, Brits? Wouldn't it still be rude? Wouldn't it actually be worse in a way? Wouldn't it make them (the minority) feel like many people are laughing at them instead of only one or a few?

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Perhaps relevant to this topic.

-Ww

 

[roots reggae]

To be clear I don't for a moment regard you as a villain in this business or in general. We have different opinion; that's all. But even if I am 100% right [nearly always the case, btw ], at worst you just had a momentary lapse of judgement and sensitivity...something that befalls pretty much everyone occasionally. Who here (or anywhere) has never regretted anything they said or the way they said it? Imo, you should regret the 3p crack; I would if it had been me. However, I have for sure said and done more offensive things in my life with no ill intent.



I think this is a very important point. A public internet forum can feel like a private space to long term and active members such as most of those participating in that thread, but it isn't really. Consider the following points:

- Clearly at least some of the ladies of TAG were reading it and have asked us to be more respectful and sensitive when discussing our tastes in women's bodies. @MissInsomnia essentially requested it in the original thread, and @User#16452 did so in starting this thread. Moreover, if you have a look at which posts in this thread have been liked by many of the other women active on TAG and which have not, it is quite clear that they have similar opinions. In effect, they are saying, "Ladies are present. Please act accordingly." Since we nearly all greatly value their presence and participation on TAG (don't we?), shouldn't we accept and respect that request?

- There are A LOT of people reading TAG threads who post little or not at all on TAG, some do not even have accounts. What do we really know about that audience. Imo, you ought to post in these threads as though what you write is being published in the newspaper for all to see. Basically it is. You have no idea who sees it, now or in the future, and no way of controlling it. For all we know the AV star who's body was being critiqued may see the thread; perhaps she googles for occurrences of her name or her photos or her URLs etc. Or maybe someone will bring it to her attention. Probably not, but it is certainly quite possible.

- I for one don't buy the "a primarily 'monger' audience" argument even if it is accurate and only a small fraction of the audience is made up of SWs, or women in general. Would it be OK to make mocking jokes about, say, French people to an audience which contained only a small number of citizens of that country and a large majority of, say, Brits? Wouldn't it still be rude? Wouldn't it actually be worse in a way? Wouldn't it make them (the minority) feel like many people are laughing at them instead of only or a small group?

-Ww

I am sorry if this offends you or the ladies-I do not regret at all making the 3P post. If you consider that too mocking, I am even afraid to finish this sentence and be accused of further mocking. Might as well ban humor on this site so not to offend some sensitive soul.

And it gets even deeper-

If the ladies are offended by TAG members discussing our tastes in women's bodies:

oh, mercy, what an unreasonable request!!!

I get it in not writing disparaging and insulting descriptions, however critiquing a SW includes descriptions of stating preferences about her body. The ladies certainly have no qualms at all in marketing themselves based on what they perceive as attractive to customers. They have done so on their web pages. On TAG they have done so in their descriptions. On TAG they have done so in their avatars. More than one SW on TAG features her ample breasts in her avatar. Another's ample assets dominate her avatar. One proudly describes her tattoos. So, we are being asked not to comment on some of the very physical attributes they use in marketing themselves? Unbelievable.

I would never try to hurt any of their feelings. I respect them too much to do so.

However, do not try to play the guilt trip game if they have their feelings hurt because of comments about their bodies. They have the responsibility to control and regulate their own feelings in response to comments, whether about their body or their perceived performance. Don't try to place that kind of misplaced responsibility on me or, I suspect, a great many TAG members.

Edit to include the above, rather large picture:

We are all fighting some battle. That's part of Life. It's totally unreasonable to ask us to tiptoe around in our writing so as not to hurt someone's feelings-see paragraph above the edit.

 

[Wwanderer]

I am sorry if this offends you or the ladies-I do not regret at all making the 3P post.

Certainly no offense taken. We just have different opinions...have agreed to disagree already (I thought), but I see no reason for anyone to take offense.

If the ladies are offended by TAG members discussing our tastes in women's bodies:

Straw man isn't this? As far as I can recall, none of the ladies (nor guys) have raised any objections to guys discussing/expressing their tastes in women's bodies. As someone pointed out above (@User#16452 I think it was), @MissInsomnia even started a poll thread asking guys opinions/preferences for different female body types. The issue is whether or not it is ok to make a joke about the body of some specific person and/or specific types of bodies. It is one of those inconvenient "facts of life" that some people will be hurt or offended by such humor. How to respond to this fact is where our opinions differ.

They have the responsibility to control and regulate their own feelings in response to comments, whether about their body or their perceived performance. Don't try to place that kind of misplaced responsibility on me or, I suspect, a great many TAG members.

The thing that makes this a difficult topic is that you can no more assign the responsibility to "control and regulate their own feelings" to the TAG SWs in any meaningful way than they can assign the responsibility to avoid hurting their feelings to you and "a great many TAG members". What matters in this situation is the responsibilities one accepts for (or assigns to) oneself, not those you lay on others. It cuts both ways, of course. Basically the ladies of TAG are asking the men to be more polite and respectful in expressing their tastes and opinions of women's bodies, which is not the same as asking us not to express them at all (the aforesaid straw man). You and each of the guys on TAG get to decide whether or not you will respond to their request.

-Ww

 

[roots reggae]

Certainly no offense taken. We just have different opinions...have agreed to disagree already (I thought), but I see no reason for anyone to take offense.

Straw man isn't this? As far as I can recall, none of the ladies (nor guys) have raised any objections to guys discussing/expressing their tastes in women's bodies. As someone pointed out above (@User#16452 I think it was), @MissInsomnia even started a poll thread asking guys opinions/preferences for different female body types. The issue is whether or not it is ok to make a joke about the body of some specific person and/or specific types of bodies. It is one of those inconvenient "facts of life" that some people will be hurt or offended by such humor. How to respond to this fact is where our opinions differ.

The thing that makes this a difficult topic is that you can no more assign the responsibility to "control and regulate their own feelings" to the TAG SWs in any meaningful way than they can assign the responsibility to avoid hurting their feelings to you and "a great many TAG members". What matters in this situation is the responsibilities one accepts for (or assigns to) oneself, not those you lay on others. It cuts both ways, of course. Basically the ladies of TAG are asking the men to be more polite and respectful in expressing their tastes and opinions of women's bodies, which is not the same as asking us not to express them at all (the aforesaid straw man). You and each of the guys on TAG get to decide whether or not you will respond to their request.

-Ww

@roots reggae - We mostly agree in detail or are at least on the same general wavelength in discussion threads. Moreover, I have no doubt that your 3p comment was intended to be funny, not hurtful, and that you regret that it hurt @MissInsomnia 's or anyone's feelings. And indeed, who among us has never given offense or hurt to someone unintentionally

I disagree for multiple reasons:

First of all, whatever should be the case, I can assure you VERY confidently that nearly all SWs have feelings, insecurities and sensitivities to comments about their appearance little different from those of other women. Through circumstances that I won't describe here, I have known A LOT of SWs of various categories on a personal basis (i.e., other than just as a customer) and have been friends with them or close to some of their friends, and having their feelings hurt, often quite badly, by customers who feel free to criticize or mock their looks because they are in the p4p business is a nearly universal experience. It is routine for SWs to offer each other support and encouragement in dealing with the emotional impact of the insults they receive and are pressured (as your quoted comment does) to accept without complaint. Put slightly differently, if SWs followed the advice you offer them in bold above, almost all of them would leave the profession (which, btw, would drive prices through the roof for the few who stayed with it).

-Ww

Thank for for clarifying. I've done a bit of research on criticism, which is a category reviews may fall under.

Please understand that my intention is to help these understandably sensitive people effectively deal with inevitable comments about their weight, body shape, attractiveness, and performance.

Dealing with Criticism: A Few Simple Strategies​

"In everyday life we continually interpret external events with a series of thoughts that flow through our mind. Our feelings are created by our thoughts and not the actual events, since all experiences must be processed cognitively, and given meaning before we have an emotional response. Another person’s harsh remarks may trigger self-blaming thoughts, but you are the only person that have the possibility to stop your inner critic.

A common dysfunctional reaction to criticism is to start questioning oneself. But no matter how mean the comments are, no other person than yourself have the power to let you feel down. It is therefore essential to take personal responsibility for negative feelings stemming from others evaluations."

Please follow the link below for the full article and how to deal with hurt feelings.

http://www.popularsocialscience.com/2013/07/23/dealing-with-criticism-a-few-simple-strategies/

How to Grow a Thick Skin and Handle Criticism

Does even constructive criticism cut you to the core? Savvy Psychologist offers 12 ways to develop thicker skin and make the most of negative feedback.

By
Ellen Hendriksen, PhD,
Savvy Psychologist
January 21, 2016

"Just living in the world opens you up to criticism, but doing anything in the public eye, from writing a blog, to performing stand-up comedy, to coaching your kid’s soccer team, will invite judgment and criticism. And doing anything truly innovative will guarantee it.

So how to brace yourself? This week, by request from listener Carolyn, here are 12 ways to deal with criticism."

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/he...how-to-grow-a-thick-skin-and-handle-criticism

 

[Anna Summer]

I don't think that either @MissInsomnia or @User#16452 intended to scold anyone here for discussion body preferences. Everybody has their own taste and that's just natural.
I'm not exactly sure how to put it into words and I think it was mentioned before. Some posts regarding appearance on TAG in reviews and such are a bit offending. Maybe not even intended.
And I also think it has nothing much to do with getting/having a thick skin for criticism but having manners and respect towards other people. There is so much body shaming on the Internet and real life. Both for skinny and rather voluptuous people. Even if you are not directly addressed with the insult, it can be a bit hurtful if you have the same body shape.
In general, you don't know if the person is sick and can't change the way they look so easy. This also goes in both directions. Skinny and heavy.

Just my 2 yen

 

[roots reggae]

So, there was a thread concerning a fuller figured AV star that prompted a lot of comments on her figure. The thread is no longer available (that I can see), but I can't help be quite surprised by the reaction on TAG, a generally fairly accepting place.

In my understanding of the situation, there are two categories that somone considered overweight might fall into:

1. Involuntarily overweight. This person is unhappy with their figure and hurtful comments will only make things worse. It's like kicking someone when they are down. Reading comments directed at someone else overweight will not make someone in the same situation feel good either. Even if it is very unlikely that the AV star would read this thread, an unwelcoming atmosphere to those with a fuller figure is not pleasant.

It must be noted that not all involuntary people merely lack willpower or dedication, some have genuine medical issues.

2. Voluntary overweight. This person maintains a fuller figure intentionally, perhaps because they or their partner find it more attractive. In the case of the aforementioned AV star, it could very well be that she finds having a fuller figure more profitable.

In my mind anyway, intentially having a fuller figure should be considered a form of "body modification". It is their body and their choice to keep it in whatever choice they might please.

For example, I'm not particularly attracted to large ear gauges but I can respect that the person doing that likes the way they look and is not harming anyone in their own choice. Some people often bring up the issue of high weight being unhealthy, but smoking is also unhealthy, if not more, yet I do not recall seeing smokers shamed in such a way. Why is being intentially overweight any different?

I'm very curious, in this day and age where so many other things are more tolerated, that weight seems to still be a "free for all" area. The internet is littered with "fat people hate" stories, when realistically, it is easy to find unflattering stories and traits in any targeted group. "Fat acceptance" campaigners are constantly mocked, just for asking to be accepted into society for how they choose to be in their own body.

To me, this makes no sense and I can't help but feel disappointed that TAG also is lacking here. I'd be very curious to read the thought process behind those who posted in the AV thread.

Edit: As a post thought, a lot of this could also apply to those who are quite thin but not unheathily so.

Once again, I did research so that I might understand the scientific basis, or lack of, for my opinions.

For me, the question of weight boils down to attractiveness. I, personally, am attracted to women who are physically fit and not overweight.

However, when it comes to social relationships, weight is not a deciding factor. In those cases, character, friendship, emotional stability, intelligence, and loyalty are much more important than weight.

My sister is an example. As a child she was thin and as a young adult not overweight, but not thin either. She was moderately active. Golf was her main physical activity since both my parents golfed and her husband, who she married when she was twenty-one, was also an avid golfer.

She maintained a normal weight throughout until she was in her late thirties. She gave up golf and did not replace it with any physical activity. She moved to the American South, a bastion of high calorie, fried, and sugar laden foods. She is now clinically obese. She tries to lose weight, but without much success. It's had a negative effect on her health.

Her weight has not affected our relationship. She often asks me for advice since she knows I eat healthy and have studied nutrition.
I love her dearly and we have a strong family relationship.

I have many co-workers that are overweight. In fact, the person I am closest to at work is also clinically obese. This has become the norm for Americans.

But going back to what I find attractive and the scientific basis for it.

This seminal research concluded attractiveness of females is based on WHR, Waist to Hip Ratio:

" Likewise, in present society, the perception that a beautiful female is necessarily thin does not convey any information about the proportionality of the woman's body parts that is essential to defining beauty. This of course does not imply that people in all societies prefer slim female bodies, or that they all prefer similar shape and sizes of body parts. There are marked differences in preferences for large full buttocks in African Americans whereas Caucasians tend to prefer less lateral fat on the thighs and smaller buttocks, and Mexican Americans tend to prefer very narrow waists (Roberts, 2005). In spite of these variations in body part preferences, people from these different ethnic groups judge a female figure with close to 0.7 WHR as maximally attractive."

https://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=48&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP3c-PyePOAhUMmJQKHTajAao4KBAWCEwwBw&url=http://people.fmarion.edu/tbarbeau/An%20Evolutionary%20Theory%20of%20Female%20Physical%20Attractiveness.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGTeahzyyES0SSa1QfZLX9-F1H3wQ&bvm=bv.131286987,d.dGo

Ww noted that @MissInsomnia started a thread with poll thread asking guys opinions/preferences for different female body types

What's your preferred body type on a girl?

1. 
   Very Slim
   14 vote(s)
   24.1%
2. *
   Slim & Fit
   30 vote(s)
   51.7%
3. 
   Average
   18 vote(s)
   31.0%
4. 
   Thick & Fit
   15 vote(s)
   25.9%
5. 
   BBW
   2 vote(s)
   3.4%
6. 
   Doesn't matter
   9 vote(s)
   15.5%
7. 
   Other
   1 vote(s)
   1.7%
   

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/preferred-body-type-on-girls.10201/#post-49772

Other researchers disagreed and found BMI, Body Mass Index as a more relevant indicator, from the University of Aberdeen:

"Researchers then tested the prediction on more than 1,300 people, both males and females, from the UK and nine other countries. Participants were shown 21 image cards showing females with different levels of body fatness and were asked to reorder them from least to most attractive.

In all the populations, males and females rated physical attractiveness of the female images very similarly. The very thinnest images with body mass index of around 19 were rated as most attractive. As fatness increased above that value, the less attractive they were rated. This contrasted the predictions of the mathematical 'fitness' model that there should be a peak in attractiveness around a BMI of 24 to 24.8.

The reason for the discrepancy was revealed when subjects were asked how old they thought the people in the images were. In this exercise they judged that the fatter people were older. Age is itself a strong indicator of evolutionary fitness. When the age factor was included into the model the optimum fatness fell to a BMI somewhere between 17 and 20 – corresponding exactly to the images people found to be most attractive."

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/8098/

 

[User#16452]

Once again, I did research so that I might understand the scientific basis, or lack of, for my opinions.

For me, the question of weight boils down to attractiveness. I, personally, am attracted to women who are physically fit and not overweight.

However, when it comes to social relationships, weight is not a deciding factor. In those cases, character, friendship, emotional stability, intelligence, and loyalty are much more important than weight.

My sister is an example. As a child she was thin and as a young adult not overweight, but not thin either. She was moderately active. Golf was her main physical activity since both my parents golfed and her husband, who she married when she was twenty-one, was also an avid golfer.

She maintained a normal weight throughout until she was in her late thirties. She gave up golf and did not replace it with any physical activity. She moved to the American South, a bastion of high calorie, fried, and sugar laden foods. She is now clinically obese. She tries to lose weight, but without much success. It's had a negative effect on her health.

Her weight has not affected our relationship. She often asks me for advice since she knows I eat healthy and have studied nutrition.
I love her dearly and we have a strong family relationship.

I have many co-workers that are overweight. In fact, the person I am closest to at work is also clinically obese. This has become the norm for Americans.

But going back to what I find attractive and the scientific basis for it.

This seminal research concluded attractiveness of females is based on WHR, Waist to Hip Ratio:

" Likewise, in present society, the perception that a beautiful female is necessarily thin does not convey any information about the proportionality of the woman's body parts that is essential to defining beauty. This of course does not imply that people in all societies prefer slim female bodies, or that they all prefer similar shape and sizes of body parts. There are marked differences in preferences for large full buttocks in African Americans whereas Caucasians tend to prefer less lateral fat on the thighs and smaller buttocks, and Mexican Americans tend to prefer very narrow waists (Roberts, 2005). In spite of these variations in body part preferences, people from these different ethnic groups judge a female figure with close to 0.7 WHR as maximally attractive."

https://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=48&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP3c-PyePOAhUMmJQKHTajAao4KBAWCEwwBw&url=http://people.fmarion.edu/tbarbeau/An%20Evolutionary%20Theory%20of%20Female%20Physical%20Attractiveness.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGTeahzyyES0SSa1QfZLX9-F1H3wQ&bvm=bv.131286987,d.dGo

View attachment 2244

Ww noted that @MissInsomnia started a thread with poll thread asking guys opinions/preferences for different female body types

What's your preferred body type on a girl?

1. 
   Very Slim
   14 vote(s)
   24.1%
2. *
   Slim & Fit
   30 vote(s)
   51.7%
3. 
   Average
   18 vote(s)
   31.0%
4. 
   Thick & Fit
   15 vote(s)
   25.9%
5. 
   BBW
   2 vote(s)
   3.4%
6. 
   Doesn't matter
   9 vote(s)
   15.5%
7. 
   Other
   1 vote(s)
   1.7%

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/preferred-body-type-on-girls.10201/#post-49772

Other researchers disagreed and found BMI, Body Mass Index as a more relevant indicator, from the University of Aberdeen:

"Researchers then tested the prediction on more than 1,300 people, both males and females, from the UK and nine other countries. Participants were shown 21 image cards showing females with different levels of body fatness and were asked to reorder them from least to most attractive.

In all the populations, males and females rated physical attractiveness of the female images very similarly. The very thinnest images with body mass index of around 19 were rated as most attractive. As fatness increased above that value, the less attractive they were rated. This contrasted the predictions of the mathematical 'fitness' model that there should be a peak in attractiveness around a BMI of 24 to 24.8.

The reason for the discrepancy was revealed when subjects were asked how old they thought the people in the images were. In this exercise they judged that the fatter people were older. Age is itself a strong indicator of evolutionary fitness. When the age factor was included into the model the optimum fatness fell to a BMI somewhere between 17 and 20 – corresponding exactly to the images people found to be most attractive."

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/8098/

View attachment 2245

Is anyone questioning this? I don't think there was any debate about whether a fuller figure is attractive to everyone or not. While the WHR is an interesting topic, it is maybe more suited to another thread.

 

[roots reggae]

Is anyone questioning this? I don't think there was any debate about whether a fuller figure is attractive to everyone or not. While the WHR is an interesting topic, it is maybe more suited to another thread.

Both the WHR and BMI are definitely related to weight and the categories of weight that you cited when starting this thread.

 

[matt_j]

My friend, you make your points with clarity and sound logic.

I just have one more response to your posts-I think.

I am not sure why I became the villain in this whole fiasco. I never made a personal attack on anyone. I told a little joke that some found funny and others found offensive. Hey, that's the nature of humor.

Humor is reason gone mad. Groucho Marx

It is a curious fact that people are never so trivial as when they take themselves seriously. Oscar Wilde

Humor is merely tragedy standing on its head with its pants torn. Irvin S. Cobb

Humor is perhaps a sense of intellectual perspective: an awareness that some things are really important, others not; and that the two kinds are most oddly jumbled in everyday affairs. Christopher Morley

Humor is just another defense against the universe. Mel Brooks

Humor is everywhere, in that there's irony in just about anything a human does. Bill Nye

Humor is a double-edged sword. It can be sharp and cutting or it can fall flat. A Roots Reggae Original

As I've stated before in this thread,

"Comments made on TAG have a primarily "monger" audience. That thread was definitely so, as was the plump AV star thread.

And audience is one of the factors when considering word tone, choice, and content.

Comments are not directed, for the most part, towards the Sex Worker, SW, on TAG. If the thread was a more general one, directed at both men and women, of course, the tone, word choice, and content would have been different."

I challenge anyone to find even one instance on this board when I have been directly (or indirectly, the 3P being a area of contention) cruel or unfair to even one of our TAG ladies. To the contrary, I have been empathetic, supportive, and even admiring of each and every one of these fine ladies. I might add, and fact I am, that this cannot be said of the some interactions of the ladies among themselves.

Wouldn't a double edged sword probably be sharp and cutting on both sides?

 

[User#6517]

I'd like to apologize for being the main cause of this thread.. I did overreact and did misunderstand..

Although it's nice to read all these kind, positive replies that I can agree with, I did take the time to look through the different point of view. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I think I understand where they're coming from.

However, I have to disagree on one thing. I'm not just "a bit emotional". I am above that.. lol. And I'm not afraid to admit it. I have my pros and cons, just like everyone else.

 

[SummersLastBreath]

I think what it comes down to in the end are just different perceptions on how casual this place is.

For Roots this probably is like a pub where you can drop by to have a cold beer or two with your pals and just chill. Somewhere to have stupid guy talk, make crude jokes and discuss how mind blowing your latest conquest was. A typical male haunt. Yes, occasionally there's a lady or two since the door is technically open to anyone, but they are often more an exception to the rule numerically speaking. You're asking him to be all proper just because there's a chance of a rare guest being within earshot. To him, he's just sitting there with his buddies and do whatever guys do when they hang out. When he does notice a lady at another table and invites her to join him and his friends for drinks, he'll change his tone and speech to something more appropriate considering the audience. But nonetheless, to him it's still mainly a place for fellow guys to discuss how to pick up cute girls and attempts to unravel the mystery of the female mind. Somewhere to throw jabs at each other in good humor and then suffer from some friendly ribbing in return. Working girls come here to advertise, because they know this place is full of horny men wanting to get laid and thus potential customers.

To others this forum is a much more... sophisticated place. Wwanderer is a true champion of the ladies. A real gentleman who would take off his jacket to cover the puddle on the ground for them to cross. He is correct to say that this is a public place that anyone from any demographic has access to. And quite a number of the high profile users of TAG are female. So much so that you should certainly know that even if a great majority of the readers are male, there will always be a few girls who see your posts as well. And all he asks is for people to take their feelings into consideration too. Stupid guy jokes should only be made when there are truly no ladies around. Wwanderer has such a kind heart that he even protects the anonymous lurkers here from any potential hurt feelings.

I personally would never make a joke like that here, because we're in public and I just know someone will take offense. But I can also tell that it was meant to be a good natured joke and guy talk is just stupid sometimes just how like female logic isn't always logical.

 

[Wwanderer]

Please follow the link below for the full article and how to deal with hurt feelings.

http://www.popularsocialscience.com/2013/07/23/dealing-with-criticism-a-few-simple-strategies/

This link does not work for me; it returns a 404.

So how to brace yourself? This week, by request from listener Carolyn, here are 12 ways to deal with criticism."

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/he...how-to-grow-a-thick-skin-and-handle-criticism

Only items #11 and #12 on the list are in the most relevant category for this topic. I think #12 is particularly good advice.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I think what it comes down to in the end are just different perceptions on how casual this place is.

Welcome to TAG! Fair minded but sharp insights expressed so clearly and articulately as those in this post and your others so far are treasures in any net forum and are especially valuable here where the non-SW female viewpoint is very underrepresented. Seriously!

a pub where you can drop by to have a cold beer or two with your pals and just chill. Somewhere to have stupid guy talk, make crude jokes and discuss how mind blowing your latest conquest was. A typical male haunt.

An excellent description [though the "stupid" could hurt someone's feelings ], but before you polish my halo too much, let me be clear that I have nothing at all against there being such "male haunts" online. Indeed, over the years I have belonged to a number of private (invitation only) forums for mongers in the NYC area on which the discussions make the crudest and most politically incorrect threads on TAG look like a high-society tea party by comparison. Moreover and more relevant in this case, there are lots of mechanisms on the net and even within TAG which allow private conversations.

You are exactly right that I perceive this place very differently than @roots reggae . Imo, anything posted here is the equivalent of standing on a soapbox in a public park addressing a small crowd of people through a megaphone. A lot of people are hearing you that are not in the little group standing right in front of you.

even if a great majority of the readers are male, there will always be a few girls who see your posts as well. And all he asks is for people to take their feelings into consideration too.

Precisely so.

But you give me too much credit. It was really @MissInsomnia and then @User#16452 that first made this, to me, very reasonable request. They deserve the credit for speaking/standing up for themselves and other SWs and, in doing so, taking the risk of offending potential customers. Predictably some criticized them in response for being too whiney/sensitive/insecure/immature etc. Imo these responses are more revealing than anything else in the discussion.

I can also tell that it was meant to be a good natured joke

I completely agree. I don't think that anyone familiar with @roots reggae (at least via his TAG persona) would seriously contemplate that he intended to insult or upset anyone. That issue is moot as far as I can tell.

-Ww

 

[roots reggae]

This link does not work for me; it returns a 404.



Only items #11 and #12 on the list are in the most relevant category for this topic. I think #12 is particularly good advice.

-Ww

Strange, just clicked on the link and it worked just fine. The article is not too long so here it is:
Dealing with Criticism: A Few Simple Strategies
Joachim Vogt Isaksen

In the earlier PSS article “Why does Criticism Hurt?” I described how criticism leads to negative emotions by triggering negative self-talk. By learning a few simple strategies it is actually quite easy to handle verbal abuse.

In everyday life we continually interpret external events with a series of thoughts that flow through our mind. Our feelings are created by our thoughts and not the actual events, since all experiences must be processed cognitively, and given meaning before we have an emotional response. Another person’s harsh remarks may trigger self-blaming thoughts, but you are the only person that have the possibility to stop your inner critic.

A common dysfunctional reaction to criticism is to start questioning oneself. But no matter how mean the comments are, no other person than yourself have the power to let you feel down. It is therefore essential to take personal responsibility for negative feelings stemming from others evaluations.

The first step to better deal criticism is to interpret unreasonable criticism in a more realistic manner instead of beating yourself up. When you become more consciously aware of the reasons you are triggered by a person´s negative remarks, you will start to realize that it is your ongoing self-criticism that really makes you feel bad.

Disarming the critic

David Burns, a clinical psychiatrist, has developed several techniques that are useful when it comes to responding to criticism. First of all it may seem counter-intuitive, but when being criticized you should try to be curious about what the critic is trying to communicate. You can find out what he really means with his negative remarks by asking him to be more concrete. This is called The Disarming Technique.

Let's say that you are a medical doctor and experience that a patient says that he is not satisfied with you. Ask the patient what exactly it is that makes him so unsatisfied. Even if you feel that the criticism is unfair you can look for some grain of truth in the answer and agree with that in principle. Follow up by asking whether he has some suggestions on how you can improve yourself. Being driven by curiosity is constructive and does not only work to improve yourself, but it is also an efficient strategy of emotional self-defence.

Being Empathic is trying to see the world through the other person’s eyes. Paraphrase the critics words and acknowledge how the person is feeling, based on what she said. You can ask questions to learn more about how the person is thinking and feeling. Try to convey an attitude of respect, even if you feel angry with the other person. Find something genuinely positive to say, even in the heat of battle.

When someone criticizes you accurately an appropriate response is simply to agree. This allows you to accept your mistake without apologizing or “beating yourself up” about it. Admit to the critic that he is right, and paraphrase him to make sure he knows that you recognize his point of view. Make sure not to apologize if you feel that the critic is being totally unreasonable.

When the critic is particularly mean or destructive, make sure not to reward the behavior by responding or retaliating to it. In order to get a feeling of power or satisfaction the critic is dependent on some form of reaction from you. By not retaliating or responding in any way you deny him this satisfaction, thus allowing the bad behavior to fade away. Behaviors that are not rewarded have a tendency to soon fade away, often leading the negative person to look for a more cooperative victim.

Whether you are being verbally harassed or a person is criticizing you in a constructive manner, I recommend that you apply one or several out of the strategies described above. They may protect yourself emotionally, and at the same time lead the critic to run out of ammunition.

Further reading

Burns, David 2008. Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy. Harper.

 

[roots reggae]

This is at least the 3rd time that someone has tried to justify degrading comments made as just 'expressing a preference'.

As an example, there's a gigantic difference in both degree and tone when talking about large breasts between saying:

"her breasts aren't really that firm in my opinion"
and
"that chick's breasts are so droopy, her nipples dragged on the floor when she walked down the hall."

The former is expressing a preference. The latter is badmouthing someone.

Meiji,

First of all, you truly have my utmost admiration. I cannot even begin to imagine the fortitude, patience, and dedication you possess in order to help make TAG the great place that it is.

I do have a tiny disagreement with your premise regarding preference and badmouthing. I get the preference part, it's the badmouthing part that slightly disturbs me.

"that chick's breasts are so droopy, her nipples dragged on the floor when she walked down the hall."

Wow, what powerful imagery; I can almost see that in my mind. Also, great use of hyperbole!!!
I see that not particularly as an insult, but making a point with effective figurative language. I'd love to see that in a review. It is language that comes alive in the reader's mind.

"her breasts aren't really that firm in my opinion" Boring as hell! And who wants to read boring reviews? We have quite a few talented writers here on TAG. It would truly be a shame to castrate them with politically correct language.

Insults, cursing, belittling, flaming, may cross the line, but effective use of the English language is a rare joy!

 

[roots reggae]

Wouldn't a double edged sword probably be sharp and cutting on both sides?

Good point!

I'll revise:

Humor is a double-edged sword. It can be sharp and stinging or it can fall flat. A Roots Reggae Original

The counter point is actually the third option, falling flat, which is twice as likely as the other two possibilities.

 

[just4fun]

sigh............still?

 

[roots reggae]

sigh............still?

But remember...

He/She who gets the last word in before Meiji closes the thread wins!!!

And for some...

 

[TheScientist]

But remember...

He/She who gets the last word in before Meiji closes the thread wins!!!

And for some...

View attachment 2252

Here's the team I'm betting on

When I win my bet drinks are served

 

[roots reggae]

Here's the team I'm betting on

When I win my bet drinks are served

Omg, I give up. You win!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[User#6541]

Ok, this thread has gone dry, locking it now.

Mod Edit: No he's not.

 

[User#6541]

There you go @Wwanderer , as requested, thread is re-open for your post!