The State Of Pickup And Nanpa

[Ascent]

Try Other Cafes
In your story, it appears you got thrown out of 1 place, then never tried again. There are other cafes.

Of course I tried again. Fuck them!
But as I lost venues and legitimately gained paranoia, things are harder still.

3 Contacts An Hour

9 approaches to get 3 contacts. The focus is the contacts, where 9 approaches is effort. You can get blown out in an approach in as little as 30 seconds to 1 minute.

In a train/train station or crowded cafe, can take as little as 5 minutes to jump between women or relocate yourself (go upstairs, other side of store/other part of train, change to other nearby cafe/train seat, new person sits next to you).... 9 (approaches) X 5 (time between) = 45 minutes.

Takes 10 minutes of a conversation to pull contact info (and I often easily do in less). 3 X 10 = 30 minutes. Plus time to jump to new prospect 3 X 5 = 15. 30 + 15 = 45 minutes. With additional time to fail a bit.

And if you don't make your quota and only got 2 contacts in a hour? Well, so...[emoji41] That's still 2 more than you started with. For me, just means I might need to spend an extra hour or less to hit my quota of 9. But if a guy got 3 contacts and called it a day, so... don't see the problem.

As far as cafes are concerned, these numbers are balderdash or perhaps apply only to a handful of places at a handful of times. If you are moving 10 times every 5 minutes in a place like that you are going to be flagged, you'll run out of girls worth approaching, have to time your seat changes to perfection, get caught in situations where someone you just got contacts off hasn't left, etc. etc.

I can concede it would actually work better than this on a train after doing some scouting, assuming you weren't going anywhere and can keep switching trains and carriages.

1/3rd Rule Revisited

Interestingly, people continually misunderstand the 1/3rd rule of thumb as if it's a hard barrier of efficiency that can't be crossed nor do they understand the accumulative effect of doing it each week. Think of it like compound interest ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest).

Wait, what happened here? In 3 months, we could have 3 or 4 or more GIRLFRIENDS or SEX-FRIENDS

That's now more sex and women than the average guy can handle. Even for my hyper-sexual self, more than 3 girlfriends/sex-friends starts to get hard to handle.

There is no 1/3rd rule. It is going to depend on the guy, and who, where and how he is approaching. You are citing a 3.5% success rate in starting a sexual relationship with a stranger, by the way. Much better than my 0% in even converting a contact into a date, congratulations!

I see what you are saying with the "compounding" but for someone starting from scratch at even less than 3.5% and with absolutely no guarantee of a lucky break I don't think it is going to pan out like that. More likely you spend months making hundreds of approaches and never get anywhere but severely depressed and even less capable of making headway.

 

[Solong]

Of course I tried again. Fuck them!
But as I lost venues and legitimately gained paranoia, things are harder still.



As far as cafes are concerned, these numbers are balderdash or perhaps apply only to a handful of places at a handful of times. If you are moving 10 times every 5 minutes in a place like that you are going to be flagged, you'll run out of girls worth approaching, have to time your seat changes to perfection, get caught in situations where someone you just got contacts off hasn't left, etc. etc.

I can concede it would actually work better than this on a train after doing some scouting, assuming you weren't going anywhere and can keep switching trains and carriages.



There is no 1/3rd rule. It is going to depend on the guy, and who, where and how he is approaching. You are citing a 3.5% success rate in starting a sexual relationship with a stranger, by the way. Much better than my 0% in even converting a contact into a date, congratulations!

I see what you are saying with the "compounding" but for someone starting from scratch at even less than 3.5% and with absolutely no guarantee of a lucky break I don't think it is going to pan out like that. More likely you spend months making hundreds of approaches and never get anywhere but severely depressed and even less capable of making headway.

Hmmmm.... I'm guessing you got discouraged along the way and are limiting yourself. You might do a lot better if you overcome some of the inhibitors that you are displaying. What you think is "impossible", is very possible. As I have described, is how I apply.

And it works really well. I'm so sexually exhausted today, don't know if I want to meet up with my next date or exit from the date early. Sex all night with college girl, didn't exit hotel until 11am. Met with older woman, from Yokohama, this afternoon and we had more sex. And will be meeting another woman to go clubbing soon. Even if it becomes a promising situation for going to the hotel, may have to turn it down.

 

[Wwanderer]

Hmmmm.... I'm guessing you got discouraged along the way and are limiting yourself. You might do a lot better if you overcome some of the inhibitors that you are displaying. What you think is "impossible", is very possible. As I have described, is how I apply.

http://www.tokyoadultguide.com/threads/the-state-of-pickup-and-nanpa.9941/page-2#post-46075

Must be you @Ascent since it *can't* be the method!

"Miracle diet" adherents are like this too.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Of course I tried again. Fuck them!
But as I lost venues and legitimately gained paranoia, things are harder still.



As far as cafes are concerned, these numbers are balderdash or perhaps apply only to a handful of places at a handful of times. If you are moving 10 times every 5 minutes in a place like that you are going to be flagged, you'll run out of girls worth approaching, have to time your seat changes to perfection, get caught in situations where someone you just got contacts off hasn't left, etc. etc.

I can concede it would actually work better than this on a train after doing some scouting, assuming you weren't going anywhere and can keep switching trains and carriages.



There is no 1/3rd rule. It is going to depend on the guy, and who, where and how he is approaching. You are citing a 3.5% success rate in starting a sexual relationship with a stranger, by the way. Much better than my 0% in even converting a contact into a date, congratulations!

I see what you are saying with the "compounding" but for someone starting from scratch at even less than 3.5% and with absolutely no guarantee of a lucky break I don't think it is going to pan out like that. More likely you spend months making hundreds of approaches and never get anywhere but severely depressed and even less capable of making headway.

I decided to go at this again, to demonstrate the negative thinking and self imposed limitations that are very obvious to me, but others may not realize.

Remember, the 1/3rd rule of thumb doesn't have a limit on efficiency. The more experienced and skillful the PUA, the HIGHER his efficiency rate usually becomes.

Even what some consider a "low efficiency" rate, can be STAGGERING effective over time and through the accumulative effect.

27 approches to 9 contacts. Can be a guy has or develops a higher efficiency rate.

9 contacts to 3 dates. Can be a guy has or develops a higher efficiency rate.

3 dates to 1 sexual encounter. Can be a guy has or develops a higher efficiency rate.

If 27 approaches a week converts into 2 sexual encounters, that's an efficiency of 7.4%.

While some of you guys are looking at that as terrible (or possibly under the false belief that near 100% efficiency is possible), the amount of sex it results in can be at ridiculous levels.

1st month

8 sexual encounters in 1 month (27 approaches and say 4 to 6 dates with 2 sexual encounters per week), yielding 2 to 3 girlfriends or sex-friends.

Note- And also factors in sexual encounters that don't develop into long term relationships.

2nd month

8 sexual encounters in 1 month, yielding 2 to 3 girlfriends.

3rd month

8 sexual encounters in 1 month, yielding 2 to 3 girlfriends.

So after 3 months, a guy can be juggling 6 to 9 girlfriends. HEY, there are only 7 days in the WEEK !?!

That's over-sexed, and that's what I arguably become, whenever I allow myself to get carried away. I had sex with 3 different women in a 24 hour period. There have been many times that I've had to cut back or drop girlfriends/sex-friends, because I don't have enough time or energy to maintain and deal with that many.

If a guy gets stuck in some part of the chain, instead of throwing his hands up and claiming it's "impossible", he may want to persevere. Put aside his ego, figure out what he is doing wrong or another way around a limitation he has.

Furthermore:

1) In a cafe, you have no limit in relocating yourself or moving to another location.

There is NO flagging. So don't create non-existent arbitrary authorities or restrictions, and this can be more a reflection of being overly self-conscious or insecurity.

Go to the Starbucks, just outside the Shibuya train station, Hachiko exit. It's beyond pretty obvious that you can move around, change floors, etc... And if the cafe is IN the train station, you now have MORE options to switch to the train, pickup in train cars, come back to a cafe later later, go to different cafes in train stations, etc...

You also don't necessarily have to move in high volume traffic situations, as women can sit or stand next to you. You can limit yourself to 3 moves, then leave the cafe, which could yeild 3 contacts in that 1 hour. There are all kinds of options, once a guy opens his mind and takes off unreasonable self imposed restrictions.

2) If moving between train cars, nobody cares or knows who you are, nor can they see you the further you move (like 2 train cars down).

You could literally change train cars, change cafes, jump to cafe to cafe in train stations, etc... all day long.

 

[Ascent]

Hmmmm.... I'm guessing you got discouraged along the way and are limiting yourself. You might do a lot better if you overcome some of the inhibitors that you are displaying. What you think is "impossible", is very possible. As I have described, is how I apply.

And it works really well. I'm so sexually exhausted today, don't know if I want to meet up with my next date or exit from the date early. Sex all night with college girl, didn't exit hotel until 11am. Met with older woman, from Yokohama, this afternoon and we had more sex. And will be meeting another woman to go clubbing soon. Even if it becomes a promising situation for going to the hotel, may have to turn it down.

How you apply: crassly brag unverifiably online and continue to assert your supposed practices are infallible and any issues are the result of improper application.
Please don't bother responding with another random picture of a half-naked Japanese girl unless you've taken the trouble of scrawling my username on her chest or elsewhere.

The inhibitors I am displaying include being thrown out of a venue doing exactly what you and others describe. At this point I would seriously have to wonder if following this kind of harebrained advice is going to get me thrown out of more venues, ostracised or arrested, to say nothing of its doubtful efficacy.

 

[Solong]

How you apply: crassly brag unverifiably online and continue to assert your supposed practices are infallible and any issues are the result of improper application.
Please don't bother responding with another random picture of a half-naked Japanese girl unless you've taken the trouble of scrawling my username on her chest or elsewhere.

The inhibitors I am displaying include being thrown out of a venue doing exactly what you and others describe. At this point I would seriously have to wonder if following this kind of harebrained advice is going to get me thrown out of more venues, ostracised or arrested, to say nothing of its doubtful efficacy.

I invite anyone to go to Starbucks outside the Shibuya JR Hachiko exit (NOT one of my favorites, but good example), to understand what I'm talking about. To get kicked out of there, you damn near have to strip naked and run around screaming, or some other totally weird tomfoolery.

There are also plenty of OTHER cafes and fast food restaurants, where any "smooth acting" guy can do lots of pickup.

And hey, if a guy just can't or doesn't want to get it, by all means empty your pocket buying women that are selling themselves or use some other method. If that's a guy's preference, I say have at it. Just remember that because you can't get something to work, doesn't mean every other guy can't.

 

[Ascent]

I invite anyone to go to Starbucks outside the Shibuya JR Hachiko exit (NOT one of my favorites, but good example), to understand what I'm talking about. To get kicked out of there, you damn near have to strip naked and run around screaming, or some other totally weird tomfoolery.

Amazing the things you'll try.

There are also plenty of OTHER cafes and fast food restaurants, where any "smooth acting" guy can do lots of pickup.

The method only works for the "smooth acting" and if it doesn't work it is your fault for not being smooth enough now?

Also, if you are not "smooth acting" to start with and need thousands of non-"smooth" approaches to get anywhere, that is a lot of venues you are going to get thrown out of. It doesn't look like you could actually get to "smooth acting" using those methods.

If I can assume there is some basis in actual accomplishment to what you write here, then my suspicion is that at the very least almost none of it is applicable to anyone who is not already extremely experienced and you only approach matters from this perspective.

And hey, if a guy just can't or doesn't want to get it, by all means empty your pocket buying women that are selling themselves or use some other method. If that's a guy's preference, I say have at it. Just remember that because you can't get something to work, doesn't mean every other guy can't.

Of course, couldn't possibly be an issue with the method after all now could it?

If I am to be completely sceptical about all this, it has crossed my mind that the entirety of the English language talk about daytime pickup in Japan I have seen is based on failure reports, braggartry and efforts to hawk PUA services by a dozen accounts on half a dozen different sites. I've never seen anyone do it and it is barely considered by Japanese sources. Assuming it is not entirely fictional, the population of practitioners in Tokyo could be vanishingly small indeed.

 

[Wwanderer]

If I am to be completely sceptical about all this, it has crossed my mind that the entirety of the English language talk about daytime pickup in Japan I have seen is based on failure reports, braggartry and efforts to hawk PUA services by a dozen accounts on half a dozen different sites. I've never seen anyone do it and it is barely considered by Japanese sources. Assuming it is not entirely fictional, the population of practitioners in Tokyo could be vanishingly small indeed.

Whether or not to believe personal stories and information posted on anonymous internet forums is a question most of us always have in the back of our minds, and there is no doubt that much which is posted is false, either complete fabrication or some sort of partial untruth (exaggeration, distortion, ommision of important points etc). And, tbh, some of the things the PUA gang report do not strike me as very plausible.

That said, in @Solong's case, everything I have seen in his posts which I can verify against my own experience and knowledge (e.g., info about Tokyo venues, statements about Japanese history, culture and language) have been quite accurate. So, I am inclined to believe what he posts about PUA too...at least provisionally. Indeed, in a practical sense, there is little choice except for us to believe each other for the most part. If we do not, the conversations simply fall apart.

To clarify slightly, @Solong and I often disagree on matters of opinion, judgement and perspective, but this should not confuse anyone. When we disagree in such ways, one of us is right (me), and one of us is wrong (him). Simple and easy to remember.

-Ww

 

[Ascent]

Whether or not to believe personal stories and information posted on anonymous internet forums is a question most of us always have in the back of our minds, and there is no doubt that much which is posted is false, either complete fabrication or some sort of partial untruth (exaggeration, distortion, ommision of important points etc). And, tbh, some of the things the PUA gang report do not strike me as very plausible.

I'm not being churlish about this and I always enjoyed Solong's posts. I can't really say if they are useful or not though.

However, at the very least I can see the subject is getting rather misrepresented by people who are portraying this stuff as a bed of roses one only has to lie in to find a stream of ready partners... their own failures and other negative aspects are glossed over in favour of manful boasts, and people with what could be presumed as high levels of skill are dispensing advice as if anyone not already at their level is a fool or coward for not being able to make things work, rendering their own advice useless if not suspect. Anyone pulling off this stuff routinely is not going to need such advice in the first place, and anyone not is not going to get anywhere following it, I fear.

 

[Manfreidi]

Everytime I have failed I can take something from that experience. I'm not getting that from your posts.

The biggest thing in all of this for me was recognising my flaws that were preventing me from picking up women. All the ideas presented here are just a means of putting you into situations with many types of women so you can figure out where your going wrong and fix it.

 

[Wwanderer]

I'm not being churlish about this and I always enjoyed Solong's posts. I can't really say if they are useful or not though.

However, at the very least I can see the subject is getting rather misrepresented by people who are portraying this stuff as a bed of roses one only has to lie in to find a stream of ready partners... their own failures and other negative aspects are glossed over in favour of manful boasts, and people with what could be presumed as high levels of skill are dispensing advice as if anyone not already at their level is a fool or coward for not being able to make things work, rendering their own advice useless if not suspect. Anyone pulling off this stuff routinely is not going to need such advice in the first place, and anyone not is not going to get anywhere following it, I fear.

I don't really know, but if I had to wager on it, I'd bet that you are correct.

I note the occasional little "fine print" escape clauses that float through the discussions. For example, @Sinapse often says that any guy who tries it will at least "improve". But this is an extremely weak claim, right? I mean a system of doing something would have to seriously suck if trying it made you worse or had no effect at all.

The more I hear, the more it sounds like yet another "miracle diet" plan, many of which use the same pitch/motivator...shed pounds and soon you will be attracting hot girls/guys and be an all around happier and more successful person.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Amazing the things you'll try.

The method only works for the "smooth acting" and if it doesn't work it is your fault for not being smooth enough now?

Also, if you are not "smooth acting" to start with and need thousands of non-"smooth" approaches to get anywhere, that is a lot of venues you are going to get thrown out of. It doesn't look like you could actually get to "smooth acting" using those methods.

Bro, it's to say that if a person is acting weird, then they might be having issues.

2 dudes can be at a party, and 1 of them has half a mustache and dirty pants. Almost all the online advice in the world isn't going to be helpful, if that's what he is doing.

I can't say exactly what you are doing from online. I'm just giving some advice, from direct experience, that can help some guys. Do with it, as you may. But very much the methodology that I use is very effective for me, and similar methodologies (as there is always variations) have worked very well for friends of mine. Different strokes for different folks.

If I can assume there is some basis in actual accomplishment to what you write here, then my suspicion is that at the very least almost none of it is applicable to anyone who is not already extremely experienced and you only approach matters from this perspective.

If I am to be completely sceptical about all this, it has crossed my mind that the entirety of the English language talk about daytime pickup in Japan I have seen is based on failure reports, braggartry and efforts to hawk PUA services by a dozen accounts on half a dozen different sites. I've never seen anyone do it and it is barely considered by Japanese sources. Assuming it is not entirely fictional, the population of practitioners in Tokyo could be vanishingly small indeed.

Here, you are making the mistake of thinking that what you can't do means most others can't. Many guys can implement what I have kindly suggested.

I gave an open invitation to go to the Starbucks by Shibuya Hachiko station. What I have said and what is possible, will be as CLEAR as day to many guys after walking around for even a bit. And some guys can figure out how to make such situations work for doing pickup. Some will, some can't, and that is life.

Lastly, I'm not selling you anything, and offering free advice based on experience. If you can't apply or refuse to get any coaching when you need it, then you have nobody to blame. To me, it's like a guy saying winning fights by kicks is impossible to a kick-boxing coach or in a kick-boxing gym. It's just funny.

 

[Chocoballs]

Learning PUA is just hard to do it by yourself for most guys. You need to be able to deal with a lot of rejection, you need to be able to analyze your results and you need to be able to make adjustments. This requires a lot of personal skills that basically very few people have. And there are so many mental roadblocks that it is a very hard path, if not impossible path for most.

The same can be said for all self-improvement stuff. I never understood why obese people could not lose weight. It's just a matter of calorie deficit. Eat less and exercise more. But then I tried to diet and get a six pack myself. It is hard as hell. But this does not mean that PUA or diet methods cannot work or that people cannot have incredible success.

I do think that when people are successful (without conscious effort) they often don't know how hard it is for other people. I have a foreign friend who gets lots of girls but he doesn't understand why other guys don't. His advice is not very useful for the other guys.

This is just life. Some people have the genes and the required skills, some don't. Try it but don't expect any miracles from any method.

 

[Sinapse]

Everytime I have failed I can take something from that experience.

+10000

This is so important.

The more I hear, the more it sounds like yet another "miracle diet" plan, many of which use the same pitch/motivator...shed pounds and soon you will be attracting hot girls/guys and be an all around happier and more successful person.

It's less like a miracle diet, and more like just having good nutrition like this (I'm in NO way an expert in this realm):

-eat a wide variety of fresh food
-stay away from added sugar, salt, and anything artificial/packaged/processed
-exercise, get sweating, get your heart pumping at LEAST 2 times a week

That's it!

The funny thing is everybody knows this is correct, yet everybody tries to find shortcuts. There aren't shortcuts nor do I claim there are with pickup. There's nothing magical about it, just lots of effort, reflection, and taking right action towards talking to women you like. If you want to boil game down you could similarly say:

-talk to women who interest you
-take the interaction wherever you like

This is all you need in the end. If you could do this, without fail, you would probably be pretty good at game indeed! But, for most guys, this isn't really enough and they want more specifics. However, providing more specifics doesn't mean that the fundamentals are phony any more than providing a few recipes of really healthy dishes you could eat or a sample exercise regimen would be a phony "miracle diet" system.

To me, it's like a guy saying winning fights by kicks is impossible to a kick-boxing coach or in a kick-boxing gym. It's just funny.

Yeah I know exactly how you feel man. We know it's real, so it seems ridiculous to us that guys wouldn't accept it is real from the beginning.

Which seems more likely?

Option A: Game works

Option B: @Solong, @Dorian Gray, myself, and every other guy who has a blog or writes about pickup and documents their results is part of an elaborate conspiracy consuming a TON of all of our time to lie to random guys they've never met for validation on the internet.

I have a foreign friend who gets lots of girls but he doesn't understand why other guys don't. His advice is not very useful for the other guys.

Yeah, sounds like he's a natural. They aren't very good at giving practical advice to guys who aren't naturally good with women because they don't think of it as a skill. Lucky, but not helpful to those who aren't

 

[Ascent]

Here, you are making the mistake of thinking that what you can't do means most others can't. Many guys can implement what I have kindly suggested.

Most guys won't even talk to a woman they don't know as far as I'm aware, much less aggressively try to seduce thousands of them. Most guys are also by definition below average in looks and intelligence. This kind of advice is only going to work for someone who can make it work, and there aren't many of them around. As you've seen, limited results in my case so far and I don't see much evidence of people routinely developing or even practicing this skill.

I gave an open invitation to go to the Starbucks by Shibuya Hachiko station. What I have said and what is possible, will be as CLEAR as day to many guys after walking around for even a bit. And some guys can figure out how to make such situations work for doing pickup. Some will, some can't, and that is life.

And I gave an open invitation to prove your bragging. No takers in either case I see.

My main doubt would be that you did not actually obtain the majority of the experience you can apparently bring to bear (it might be exceptional looks, charm or wealth for all we know...) practicing these methods, so I'm sceptical about how easy it is for someone to actually develop such a skill in the way you laid out. How many guys apart from myself and your friends seriously tried your suggestions, I wonder?

Yeah I know exactly how you feel man. We know it's real, so it seems ridiculous to us that guys wouldn't accept it is real from the beginning.

Which seems more likely?

Option A: Game works

Option B: @Solong, @Dorian Gray, myself, and every other guy who has a blog or writes about pickup and documents their results is part of an elaborate conspiracy consuming a TON of all of our time to lie to random guys they've never met for validation on the internet.

Option C: Game works 1-5% of the time for someone who has already done it thousands of times and amassed a great deal of experience. There is a cottage industry based around hyping its efficacy to everyone else. Nobody can tell who is actually successful.

That's a very different proposition to "game works" - yes, it may work if those conditions are met, but without the prerequisites it is a different story. There are quite a lot of accounts from people bombing with game, and presumably most are not keen to be as candid as I have been with you here.

 

[Solong]

Most guys won't even talk to a woman they don't know as far as I'm aware, much less aggressively try to seduce thousands of them. Most guys are also by definition below average in looks and intelligence. This kind of advice is only going to work for someone who can make it work, and there aren't many of them around. As you've seen, limited results in my case so far and I don't see much evidence of people routinely developing or even practicing this skill.



And I gave an open invitation to prove your bragging. No takers in either case I see.

My main doubt would be that you did not actually obtain the majority of the experience you can apparently bring to bear (it might be exceptional looks, charm or wealth for all we know...) practicing these methods, so I'm sceptical about how easy it is for someone to actually develop such a skill in the way you laid out. How many guys apart from myself and your friends seriously tried your suggestions, I wonder?



Option C: Game works 1-5% of the time for someone who has already done it thousands of times and amassed a great deal of experience. There is a cottage industry based around hyping its efficacy to everyone else. Nobody can tell who is actually successful.

That's a very different proposition to "game works" - yes, it may work if those conditions are met, but without the prerequisites it is a different story. There are quite a lot of accounts from people bombing with game, and presumably most are not keen to be as candid as I have been with you here.

I'm not saying some of what you typed isn't correct. Maybe some guys do have special genes or a natural disposition to make certain methodologies work.

However, it's often a combination of hard work and talent. Just because you have talent, doesn't mean you can be good at something. Just because you work hard at something, could still mean you won't be any good, because you lack talent.

Personally, I choose to believe it's more like learning Algebra or Calculus. Yes, it might be considered difficult, but most people can eventually learn it, if they apply themselves. I strongly believe most guys can become proficient PUAs, if they put in the effort and choose to do so.

And a lot of the methodologies that I used were taught to me by swinger pals of mine (who look like the average guy), particularly street orientated pick up in Japan. Prior to that, was more of a club or bar type of guy. I had to learn new things and new techniques too.

 

[Solong]

And I gave an open invitation to prove your bragging. No takers in either case I see.

Starbucks Cafe, near Shibuya Hachiko exit.

This was not bragging, so to categorize it as such is strange. This is an open invitation to see how easy it is to talk to people and move from location to location within the cafe and building (Tsutaya downstairs).

If instead of going there and seeing what an acceptable location looks like, to do what I have mentioned, you instead make excuses then you are simply not applying yourself or are doing something weird. Especially if all you need do is walk around, see how opportunities exists, and think about it.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I can't make anyone take advantage of an obvious opportunity. Some guys will understand, others won't or can't, and such is life.

 

[Ascent]

I was referring to your habit of posting random pictures of girls to emphasise your success. Anyone can make whatever claims they like here as you well know.

I already know what an acceptable location looks like. I got thrown out of one very similar to it for doing exactly the sort of thing suggested. There are plenty of similar places near me, and perhaps I could get away with bouncing around in them chatting to girls for a time. But logistically I am not convinced I could conduct the volume of approaches required in most of them. It would be very noticeable as I found out to my inconvenience. It doesn't even enter into your thinking, which is what I find strange. The idea of using trains seems a little better, but even so.

 

[Sinapse]

As a desperate last step to stop my personal life completely collapsing as a result of this experiment, I gave Tinder another try

Why would your personal life collapse? Are rejections so hard to handle that they are crushing you?

My main doubt would be that you did not actually obtain the majority of the experience you can apparently bring to bear (it might be exceptional looks, charm or wealth for all we know...) practicing these methods

I remember in another thread you mentioned that you are good looking and that this is not the issue. Even if looks mattered (they don't really), that is not the problem. I know a bunch of downright ugly guys who can pull chicks left and right. Often times, being less attractive is actually a benefit.

As for money, I don't offer to give money nor do I go on particularly expensive dates (quite the contrary - going on lots of dates is already expensive!)

Game works 1-5% of the time

You are citing a 3.5% success rate in starting a sexual relationship with a stranger

Numbers and success % are the absolute worst way of looking at this. I understand why people think like this, especially at the beginning. They'd like some guarantee that with a certain amount of effort, they will get certain results. But I will always push back against this for two reasons

1. Everybody is different, and some people are starting from serious social skills poverty meaning the effort one guy needs to get good is not the same as the effort another guy needs
2. It puts incredible and unnecessary emphasis on "getting sex" which basically amounts to "What can I get from these girls." This is NOT the point of pickup. You should be focused on creation and giving positive experiences to people and bettering yourself. Sex will come when you forgo obsession with it.
3. Numbers vary depending on who you talk to

And I gave an open invitation to prove your bragging. No takers in either case I see.

I assume you're referring to this:

Please don't bother responding with another random picture of a half-naked Japanese girl unless you've taken the trouble of scrawling my username on her chest or elsewhere.

Look. This is very, very easy to do. I could compile a small gallery of a dozen different women over a couple weeks with your username somewhere on them. But think for a second about what you are asking me to do. And first look at what you have written:

Unfalsifiable.

pathetic pseudo-Marxist

could both be abused as ways of sidestepping all scepticism

fictionalised conquest-bragging to drastically misrepresenting such practices

these numbers are balderdash

crassly brag unverifiably online

harebrained advice

doubtful efficacy.

the subject is getting rather misrepresented by people

There is a cottage industry based around hyping its efficacy

Nobody can tell who is actually successful.

You are essentially calling myself and other posters who talk about pickup on here liars, braggers, cheats, scam artists, sidesteppers, and essentially coming at us with incredible skepticism (while still trying to do what we do). Skepticism is okay (and healthy, even), but you have to go into pursuits with an open mind and positivity, at the very least. If people are here trying to help you, you shouldn't be talking shit to them.

In my mind, you have two choices:

1. Be gracious, listen to the advice you give, and respectfully voice the discrepancies you see, and we will help you as best we can over text on the internet (and for free I might add!)
2. Call us whatever names you like, but don't expect anything in return.

My overall point here is that you are coming into this whole endeavour with an extremely negative, "What can I TAKE" attitude, when you should first try to OFFER value. If you don't have any expertise or anything useful to contribute, the VERY MINIMUM is to approach guys who you want something from (free advice) with a positive and gracious attitude rather than one that seems abusive and overly paranoid / conspiratory. This carries over beyond what I notice about how you interact with guys trying to give you advice, and into your interactions with women (and the success % myopic focus). You are determined to extract all value from these women, focused entirely on what you can GET from them. The missing paradigm is what I've mentioned here: You have to shift your mindset from TAKING to GIVING. You can do this by

1. Improving yourself in all areas of your life (language, social skills, fitness, fashion, diet, etc)
2. Trying to provide women with good experiences rather than take something (a number, a lay) and focusing only on what you GET and when (after how much effort)

So do I feel the need to write the username of a random internet guy I've never met who has pretty much constantly doubted me and tried to undermine what I'm saying from day 1 on a woman (who I know, like, and respect the time of)'s body (something that already seems creepy and weird to me) just so that he believes me a little bit? No, I really don't. If you had been gracious this whole time, perhaps. If I knew you, certainly. But am I going to do this for someone I don't know who is just talking a lot of shit? Yeah.. sorry no.

There is already endless proof that this works. If you rolled with me or one of my friends for a day you would see it first hand and you would be able to see tons of galleries of pictures of women and stories about them and what we've done. Nobody I know doubts this. Why? Because they know me, and it's readily apparent. If you're not willing to accept what I say as true, that's fine. Honestly.. it really doesn't matter one way or the other to me!

 

[Solong]

I was referring to your habit of posting random pictures of girls to emphasise your success. Anyone can make whatever claims they like here as you well know.

I already know what an acceptable location looks like. I got thrown out of one very similar to it for doing exactly the sort of thing suggested. There are plenty of similar places near me, and perhaps I could get away with bouncing around in them chatting to girls for a time. But logistically I am not convinced I could conduct the volume of approaches required in most of them. It would be very noticeable as I found out to my inconvenience. It doesn't even enter into your thinking, which is what I find strange. The idea of using trains seems a little better, but even so.

Pics Are Real Deal

The only reason I gave some, is I'm "old school". For my swinger pals and I, if no pictures, then it didn't happen. There is no such thing as a "bar story", so pics prove it happened. Gave a little taste here, to help motivate some guys that think it can't be done.

1) The pics are real

And have more of the same ladies or in the same location, so there is no doubt.

2) You don't know, but the pic you appear to be questioning, is IN a real happening bar.

That's very specific, and not a location that can be faked (as Ww knows).

3) You are getting a bit schizophrenic in the criticism

A) If I post a pic, then I'm a crass braggart

B) If I don't post a pic or proof, then I'm a liar and fraud.

That's a no win scenario. Just too funny.


Excuses About The Cafe/Coffee Shop

To me and any proficient PUAs, the excuse of not checking out a place that demonstrates what the poster is claming, because of previous failure at a totally different location, sounds like the guy is offering excuses to rationalize a defeatist attitude.

Anybody that has been to Starbucks by the Shibuya Hachiko exit knows that you would have to do something totally insane and extremely obvious to get kicked out. There is no doubt about it, going there would make what I have stated very obvious and prove it's validity.


Sinapse's Open Invitation

Even more, Sinapse has extended an open hand to go roll with him to see how it's done. So to reject his offer, and continue the negative criticism, looks as if the person isn't interested in actually learning anything or proof but just "throwing rocks from a distance".

 

[Ascent]

Why would your personal life collapse? Are rejections so hard to handle that they are crushing you?

My personal life is adversely affected if I am unable to include new girls in it, a situation which has persisted since I turned my hand to this.

What a bunch of random girls think of me matters not a whit, though obviously I would prefer more positive experiences. What bothers me is that I have invested so much energy in something and made such limited progress. I expect more of myself.

Numbers and success % are the absolute worst way of looking at this. I understand why people think like this, especially at the beginning. They'd like some guarantee that with a certain amount of effort, they will get certain results. But I will always push back against this for two reasons

1. Everybody is different, and some people are starting from serious social skills poverty meaning the effort one guy needs to get good is not the same as the effort another guy needs
2. It puts incredible and unnecessary emphasis on "getting sex" which basically amounts to "What can I get from these girls." This is NOT the point of pickup. You should be focused on creation and giving positive experiences to people and bettering yourself. Sex will come when you forgo obsession with it.
3. Numbers vary depending on who you talk to

Doesn't everyone need some kind of benchmark of success, and isn't the goal usually a "sexual relationship" of some kind? My goal is to be able to freely share my time with girls I like, not just happily chat to strangers and then never see them again.

For what it's worth, I stopped counting or recording the details of my encounters a while ago. It's useful information at times but as you were saying, quite possibly creates limiting patterns of thought.

I assume you're referring to this:

I was calling out Solong for this gem, and his habit of posting random pictures:

And it works really well. I'm so sexually exhausted today, don't know if I want to meet up with my next date or exit from the date early. Sex all night with college girl, didn't exit hotel until 11am. Met with older woman, from Yokohama, this afternoon and we had more sex. And will be meeting another woman to go clubbing soon. Even if it becomes a promising situation for going to the hotel, may have to turn it down.

Honestly...

In any case, what you guys get up to is not so much a concern to me, the methods are more what concern me.
Even if Solong were somehow a total fantasist, I can see most of his observations make extreme sense and this is why I always like reading his posts.

You are essentially calling myself and other posters who talk about pickup on here liars, braggers, cheats, scam artists, sidesteppers, and essentially coming at us with incredible skepticism (while still trying to do what we do). Skepticism is okay (and healthy, even), but you have to go into pursuits with an open mind and positivity, at the very least. If people are here trying to help you, you shouldn't be talking shit to them.

Scepticism and critical thinking are essential skills, and if I did not have an open mind I would not be actually experimenting with the techniques I am reading about. However, my mind is also open to the possibility these techniques are so ineffective as to be impractical or inferior to other methods. But I am not able to make any determination like that with the practical experience I have gathered so far.

There are only 3-4 PUA types on here as far as I am aware, along with various occasional or incidental posters. One I know nothing about, one is essentially involved with marketing a business, and another is at times so bombastic as to provoke responsive incredulity.

That most PUA type services are barely as likely to succeed for their customers as their customers are likely to succeed with any of the women they approach is simply an unfortunate fact which invites extreme caution when dealing with them. And men are no more to be trusted with tales of their conquests than fishermen tales of their catches.

If my scepticism comes across as hostility or I am seem ungrateful, let me address that - whatever my doubts, I am most grateful for the patience and knowledge displayed by most of the posters here.

In my mind, you have two choices:

1. Be gracious, listen to the advice you give, and respectfully voice the discrepancies you see, and we will help you as best we can over text on the internet (and for free I might add!)
2. Call us whatever names you like, but don't expect anything in return.

My overall point here is that you are coming into this whole endeavour with an extremely negative, "What can I TAKE" attitude, when you should first try to OFFER value. If you don't have any expertise or anything useful to contribute, the VERY MINIMUM is to approach guys who you want something from (free advice) with a positive and gracious attitude rather than one that seems abusive and overly paranoid / conspiratory. This carries over beyond what I notice about how you interact with guys trying to give you advice, and into your interactions with women (and the success % myopic focus). You are determined to extract all value from these women, focused entirely on what you can GET from them. The missing paradigm is what I've mentioned here: You have to shift your mindset from TAKING to GIVING.

For someone who is on here to solicit clients and drum up traffic for their site you seem overly sanctimonious about this.

What I have been offering is an unvarnished account of these methods failing rather dismally. Not something one often reads about when dealing with this material.

Since your final response is basically "something ineffable about you in person that only a coach could identify must be the problem" that leaves things at an impasse.

Pics Are Real Deal
A) If I post a pic, then I'm a crass braggart

B) If I don't post a pic or proof, then I'm a liar and fraud.

That's a no win scenario. Just too funny.

Right. The win is to not brag in the first place! Or at least just save it for the poor saps who buy all their women.

More to the point, if you are essentially going to post "I have so much sex I am turning women away, your problem is you suck at this" you are obviously going to provoke a certain kind of response.

Anybody that has been to Starbucks by the Shibuya Hachiko exit knows that you would have to do something totally insane and extremely obvious to get kicked out. There is no doubt about it, going there would make what I have stated very obvious and prove it's validity.

I thought a coffee shop was a coffee shop? I was careful to observe, and noticed significant differences in customer demographics, seating, usage and so on, but the atmosphere of all the ones I've been in was basically the same.

If you are saying it is much different then I should check it out.

Even more, Sinapse has extended an open hand to go roll with him to see how it's done. So to reject his offer, and continue the negative criticism, looks as if the person isn't interested in actually learning anything or proof but just "throwing rocks from a distance".

He is only interested in the company of men willing to buy his time if I'm not mistaken.

You, more than anyone else here, may just have forgotten the complexity and difficulty of the matter at hand. Although this is kind of obvious when someone is talking about having sex with a girl in a stairwell ten minutes after meeting her or something.

Anyone can physically go out and start talking to members of the opposite sex. But almost nobody does. If it were as simple as starting a conversation everyone would be doing it, and if the reasons they find it hard were easy to dispense with you would just be able to tell people to try it and they would... as you probably realise, most people will find any excuse to get out of trying this kind of thing.

 

[Solong]

I was calling out Solong for this gem, and his habit of posting random pictures:

Right. The win is to not brag in the first place! Or at least just save it for the poor saps who buy all their women.

More to the point, if you are essentially going to post "I have so much sex I am turning women away, your problem is you suck at this" you are obviously going to provoke a certain kind of response.

I thought a coffee shop was a coffee shop? I was careful to observe, and noticed significant differences in customer demographics, seating, usage and so on, but the atmosphere of all the ones I've been in was basically the same.

If you are saying it is much different then I should check it out.

Pics

Ascent, my purpose and what I can tell of Sinapse isn't to belittle other guys attempting PUA, but provide encouragement or show them they have options. That's the intention of posting some pics. It's more, "If I can do it, then so can you too."

In no way do I think that I'm genetically better than any other guy, and simply made the effort to get better. I've made plenty of mistakes and had lots of failures along the way, in addition to improving and success. I've read that Sinapse has also had his ups and downs too. It's a combination, and such is life.

Coffee Shops & Fast Food Restaurants

And no, all coffee shops and fast food restaurants are not the same. Some have a better setup (seating arrangement, location...) and/or higher volume of people traffic, which make them better.

That's why a guy has to look at and try different ones. It also helps to understand what a good situation, design, and setup looks like. So when he sees it or spends some time there, he will know a place has potential or not.

However, no excuses. In other words, never expect a location or situation to be perfect, still be opportunistic, and develop your conversation and approach skills.

A hunter may have a preferred location to where he goes, but he still needs to be an expert with his rifle and a good shot. And if an unexpected opportunity presents itself, still be ready and prepared to go for it.

 

[Chocoballs]

I thought a coffee shop was a coffee shop? I was careful to observe, and noticed significant differences in customer demographics, seating, usage and so on, but the atmosphere of all the ones I've been in was basically the same.

There are big differences even between Starbucks shops. Some are really noisy (for example the one in Odaiba with lots of sightseeing people), other shops are really quiet and have lots of people studying. The Hachiko one is very dynamic and has lots of seats near the window where people can sit alone.

 

[Sinapse]

My personal life is adversely affected if I am unable to include new girls in it, a situation which has persisted since I turned my hand to this.

Were you able to before? If so, why did you stop? If not, why would you blame pickup?

There are only 3-4 PUA types on here as far as I am aware, along with various occasional or incidental posters. One I know nothing about, one is essentially involved with marketing a business, and another is at times so bombastic as to provoke responsive incredulity

Yeah, ideally you'd find some peers rather than guys who are far out the other side of it. They have all degrees of success and wide variety of sticking points. Perhaps it would be good for you to look for some and post about your issues there. This has the double effect of proving that it does work with time and also possibly meeting some guys who want to go out together to do it with you. It's very hard to do this entirely on your own

Since your final response is basically "something ineffable about you in person that only a coach could identify must be the problem" that leaves things at an impasse.

Well you also haven't been able to really explain how they are reacting to you in much detail at all. You mentioned you have difficulty reflecting. I suggested you write a journal and pay very close attention to their responses. Are you doing this? If you are unable to come up with any reflection on your interactions, how is anybody else supposed to help you? Some guys are really incapable of determining how other people are feeling or why am interaction might not have gone well. In those cases, among others, yeah getting someone who knows what they're doing and talking about to watch you can really help. If you aren't interested in coaching, perhaps you can find someone who can do that for you

There are big differences even between Starbucks shops. Some are really noisy (for example the one in Odaiba with lots of sightseeing people), other shops are really quiet and have lots of people studying. The Hachiko one is very dynamic and has lots of seats near the window where people can sit alone.

Perhaps most importantly, the staff are on a totally separate floor from the seating area!

 

[Solong]

Were you able to before? If so, why did you stop? If not, why would you blame pickup?



Yeah, ideally you'd find some peers rather than guys who are far out the other side of it. They have all degrees of success and wide variety of sticking points. Perhaps it would be good for you to look for some and post about your issues there. This has the double effect of proving that it does work with time and also possibly meeting some guys who want to go out together to do it with you. It's very hard to do this entirely on your own



Well you also haven't been able to really explain how they are reacting to you in much detail at all. You mentioned you have difficulty reflecting. I suggested you write a journal and pay very close attention to their responses. Are you doing this? If you are unable to come up with any reflection on your interactions, how is anybody else supposed to help you? Some guys are really incapable of determining how other people are feeling or why am interaction might not have gone well. In those cases, among others, yeah getting someone who knows what they're doing and talking about to watch you can really help. If you aren't interested in coaching, perhaps you can find someone who can do that for you



Perhaps most importantly, the staff are on a totally separate floor from the seating area!

Differences

It's also: different staff can react differently, different coffee shop (like Starbucks versus Becks), different location, different design, etc...

So the situation or experience a person had at one place, is not necessarily predictive or indicative of other places. Like if I talk to a Puerto Rican girl and had a bad experience. Should I then avoid all Puerto Rican women or realize it could have been I just happen to meet a bad one?