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What's People's Issues With Pua?

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Chocoballs said:
I don't know his history so I can't say if he is lying or not. And of course it depends on your definition of success.

But 95% is practically impossible. If you read some of the older threads then the Japanese top street PUA have only 5-8% success rate. Even @Solong never mentioned such high success rates.

Furthermore I think your definition of PUA is very limited. PUA are only the successful guys.
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PUA is someone who has no problem getting women. Students PUA don't count and regular guys don't count. You guys are lumping everyone into the PUA. That is the problem. Then blaming the PUA for what some average Joe did.
 
4vibes said:
PUA is someone who has no problem getting women. Students PUA don't count and regular guys don't count. You guys are lumping everyone into the PUA. That is the problem. Then blaming the PUA for what some average Joe did.
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I'm not lumping everyone in PUA.

But it's kind of useless to define a PUA as the perfect seducer who never fails. Similarly is also useless to define a PUA as any guy who approaches a girl.
 
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Chocoballs said:
I'm not lumping everyone in PUA.

But it's kind of useless to define a PUA as the perfect seducer who never fails. Similarly is also useless to define a PUA as any guy who approaches a girl.
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You may not but people on this thread are.

PUA are not 100%. Cajun maybe a little high but average PUA are about 33% success rate. The rate depends on location where a girl has time to talk. Cajun may have better rate due to better location. With a 33% rate you don't harass, you just move to the next girl. You will have more women than you need.
 
4vibes said:
With a 33% rate you don't harass, you just move to the next girl. You will have more women than you need.
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The attitude toward women, as though they were an interchangeable commodity there to fulfill a man's need...basically saying that there's no problem as long as he has (the choice of word suggest ownership) as many as he needs, is one of the things that people (especially women) dislike about PUA/gaming, imo.

Btw, imo there definitely are women who regard men in a symmetrical way...just as a convenient means to be used to reach their goals. @Solong often complains about this type of attitude in women and appears to believe that it is more common among Japanese women.

-Ww
 
Supposedly, it's all about becoming a better, confident person, a guy from whom rejection flows like water off a teflon-lathered duck. For that, some on here come across as rather defensive, and thin-skinned. Boys don't cry, and real PUAs don't complain. Maybe, a few more seminars are in order.
 
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4vibes said:
Look at Cajun. Did he harass the women? His targets were all smiles. They couldn't wait to give him their numbers.
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Only his targets who were recorded on video.

If an average PUA has 33% success rate then what about the other 67% of the women?
 
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static said:
That would fall under misconception.

Good game isn't manipulation or control. It involves projecting confidence to those around you, treating women beings, and having a strong lead.

All of that is more about fixing yourself, not controlling others.
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Whether or not it is a misconception, it definitely is a reason that people dislike PUA/game so much imo. And it certainly is VERY easy to get the impression that it is about manipulation and control from reading or viewing widely available material put forth by men who identify themselves as masters of PUA/game. I can easily believe that there is "good game" and "bad game" just as there are good and bad attorneys (and many between the extremes), but the "bad game" folks seem to dominate the perception of the community among those outside it.

I'm still trying to focus on the question you posed when you started this thread which, btw, I think is a good and honest one that deserves serious and respectful replies.

-Ww
 
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Wwanderer said:
The attitude toward women, as though they were an interchangeable commodity there to fulfill a man's need...basically saying that there's no problem as long as he has (the choice of word suggest ownership) as many as he needs, is one of the things that people (especially women) dislike about PUA/gaming, imo.
-Ww
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Don't put words in my mouth with ownership or commodity or gaming(used). Both parties enter the relationship with their eyes open.
 
Chocoballs said:
Only his targets who were recorded on video.

If an average PUA has 33% success rate then what about the other 67% of the women?
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The show gives each contestant 3 attempts only. The goal is to get the number. He was 100% that night.
 
4vibes said:
The show gives each contestant 3 attempts only. The goal is to get the number. He was 100% that night.
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You can't say he is a PUA and never harasses because 3 girls were happy. Last week I went to a bar. I asked 1 girl for her number and I got it. I even went on a date with her. 100% success rate. But from that I can't infer that I never make a girl feel like she was harassed.

The point is you define a PUA as someone who never makes a girl feel like she was harassed. That is just practically impossible. Your proof is he says he has 95% success and 100% success on a show with 3 girls. But you have to look at ALL his approaches everywhere, not only his successful ones. Even with 95% that means maybe 5% were harassed.

I'm not anti PUA at all but your reasoning just doesn't make sense.
 
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I'm forced to undergo bi-monthly sales training to increase my 'work game' (if that term exists) so I understand about bettering myself in my 'art' and I support PUA in terms of encouraging people to go to the gym, be more confident, respect themselves etc ..

But terms like 'average frustrated chump', 'Anti-slut defense', 'friendzone' and 'target'....

It's not really something people are going to accept, or want to hear, with open arms.
 
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Sinapse said:
Believing pickup is true is threatening to one's own life choices (past and present).

"If it is true, it means I could have been getting laid this whole time with women I see on magazine covers! I don't want to believe it, therefore I poke holes in it whenever it surfaces"

Of course, nobody would admit this.
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With all due respect to @Sinapse , many of whose posts and comments I value and respect, I think the above illustrates very well some of the reasons people have a strongly negative reaction to PUAs/gamers. Note these features:

- There is the arrogance and condescension implied by being able to see no validity in any criticism of oneself but ascribing it all to jealousy and insecurity in one's critics. It reeks of someone who feels superior to others. It would be as though someone criticized mongers about their p4p activity, and the response was that it could mean nothing but that the critic was jealous of the monger's wealth and the easy access it gives him to sex. It would be like a monger saying to a PUA/gamer something like, "You must secretly feel bad, threatened and envious because you have to work so long and hard and with such great self-discipline to get what I can have by picking up the phone or sending a few emails. Too bad you aren't successful enough in life to earn a respectable income." (Note VERY CLEARLY please, that I am NOT saying and DON'T think anything at all along those lines...just trying to illustrate how the above post comes across.)

- The comment is offensive to many women because it implies that men value (or should value) them at a fundamental level (the level that is determined by men's "life choices") in terms of sex ("getting laid") and appearance ("magazine covers"). Imo, this is exactly the sort of traditional/conservative gender stereotyping and view of sexuality that makes feminism necessary to a humanistic society. It is the view of women and sex that dominated the male culture in the high school I attended in a small town in the region of the US known as "The South"...a culture which I associate with the worst aspects of the US and the Western world in many ways. Even way back then, I sensed that it was deeply wrong and based on hate and fear of "the other". But I digress...

- Finally the last line of the above quote casually assumes dishonesty and hypocrisy among those TAGers who criticize PUA/gaming...that they are acting on a hidden and shameful agenda of which they are quite aware. Note the ironic symmetry; many of those critics believe that PUAs/gamers have their own hidden and shameful agenda. Imo, both are mostly incorrect; I strongly suspect that both the critics and PUA/gamers are expressing their true views and feelings.

-Ww
 
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BladeRunner said:
I'm forced to undergo bi-monthly sales training to increase my 'work game' (if that term exists) so I understand about bettering myself in my 'art' and I support PUA in terms of encouraging people to go to the gym, be more confident, respect themselves etc ..

But terms like 'average frustrated chump', 'Anti-slut defense', 'friendzone' and 'target'....

It's not really something people are going to accept, or want to hear, with open arms.
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"Work game" in the sense that you pick up office ladies? :)
 
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Chocoballs said:
You can't say he is a PUA and never harasses because 3 girls were happy. Last week I went to a bar. I asked 1 girl for her number and I got it. I even went on a date with her. 100% success rate. But from that I can't infer that I never make a girl feel like she was harassed.

The point is you define a PUA as someone who never makes a girl feel like she was harassed. That is just practically impossible. Your proof is he says he has 95% success and 100% success on a show with 3 girls. But you have to look at ALL his approaches everywhere, not only his successful ones. Even with 95% that means maybe 5% were harassed.

I'm not anti PUA at all but your reasoning just doesn't make sense.
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I see where you are lost. You assume if he did not get a number, he was harassing the girls? It doesn't matter if he got a number. He was going to use the same approach. Did he harass the women? You want to define talking to a girl as harass? Funny
 
@Chocoballs and @4vibes , there is no need to try to guess or calculate if women feel harassed by approaches from guys who consider themselves PUAs/gamers. There is a much easier way. You can just ask the women. In fact, you need not even ask; if you spend much time around women of the sort that PUAs/gamers tend to target, you will hear them comment on it without being asked.

The answer is that a substantial number do find it harassing and unpleasant, ranging from mildly to extremely. Other women do not.

-Ww
 
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Wwanderer said:
@Chocoballs and @4vibes , there is no need to try to guess or calculate if women feel harassed by approaches from guys who consider themselves PUAs/gamers. There is a much easier way. You can just ask the women. In fact, you need not even ask; if you spend much time around women of the sort that PUAs/gamers tend to target, you will hear them comment on it without being asked.

The answer is that a substantial number do find it harassing and unpleasant, ranging from mildly to extremely. Other women do not.

-Ww
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You are including all men approaching women. The number of PUA are not that many. PUA don't harass as Cajun showcased.
 
4vibes said:
I see where you are lost. You assume if he did not get a number, he was harassing the girls? It doesn't matter if he got a number. He was going to use the same approach. Did he harass the women? You want to define talking to a girl as harass? Funny
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No I don't assume he haressed a girl. That is why I said MAYBE 5%.

No I don't define talking to a girl as harassment.
You say a PUA never harasses a girl. I'm showing you that it is a useless definition.

And it's more important if a girl says she feels haressed than whether you think it was harassment or not.
 
4vibes said:
You are including all men approaching women. The number of PUA are not that many. PUA don't harass as Cajun showcased.
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Nope Cajun did not showcase that.

Anyway I'll stop now. It seems I can't explain it in a way that you can understand it.
 
static said:
Well, I ask this in earnest, what are the values and beliefs to make you a better monger? I mean beyond certain etiquette and specialized vocabulary, I don't see it needing much more than money, to follow basic guidelines, and to know how to avoid getting scammed, whereas PUA involves a lot more to the individual, more instruction, and (at times) major lifestyle changes. I'm not sure how you can compare the two in terms of volume of information. That said, you can see entire websites dedicated to reviews, locations, advertisements and all sorts for P4P, blogs devoted to etiquette, etc. I have yet to see any monger training seminars anywhere in the world (though it wouldn't surprise me if they exist).
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I'd like to reply to this but don't think I really understand your point clearly. Indeed, PUA/gaming and p4p are quite different, and I have not seen claims that the latter requires any amazing skills, training, lifestyle changes etc. It does require quite a bit of self-confidence and risk tolerance though. Any experienced escort can tell you how nervous many of their customers are. (I was even accused of being an undercover cop and thus denied service by escorts in the US on a couple of occasions because I seemed "too relaxed"!) You can also read about it in many of the accounts posted by mongers on this board and others, especially among newbies. I have also heard many men say that they would love to see prostitutes but are afraid of doing so (afraid of getting caught by their SO, getting an STD, being a crime victim or whatever), thus my comment about risk tolerance. To enjoy p4p you also have to have a strong enough sense of your own moral values to resist the stigmatization by society, the view that only "bad people" buy/sell sex.

And, of course, although your post seems to dismiss it as trivial, it does require significant amounts of money, and not every guy can manage that. I suppose a p4p boot camp might be about how to increase one's income! ;)

Still, I'm not sure I answered you because I'm not sure what point you were making.

-Ww
 
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Chocoballs said:
No I don't assume he haressed a girl. That is why I said MAYBE 5%.

No I don't define talking to a girl is harassment.

You say a PUA never harasses a girl. I'm showing you that it is a useless definition.

And it's more important if a girl says she feels haressed than whether you think it was harassment or not.
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Never? I said they don't. As a PUA, I would stop and address her discomfort when I see it. If she doesn't want to talk, I let her go.
 
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