What's People's Issues With Pua?

[4vibes]

Jerks teaching jerks how to become bigger jerks is not a valuable contribution to society.

Jerks calling people names is not a valuable contribution to society.

 

[TAG_Member]

It works if a person stays with it. Most don't put the effort into it. I say half give up after the first yr. This is the point where a person starts to change. This is the point where a person completes his 1000 approaches.

Really?? Wow. Do all PUA agree and need to go through this?

Seems like a lot of time and effort to get laid for free. What sort of jobs and income do PUA have anyway? I would love to be an 'expert' in picking up women but I have better goals in life and free pussy isn't on the top of my list!

 

[4vibes]

Really?? Wow. Do all PUA agree and need to go through this?

Seems like a lot of time and effort to get laid for free. What sort of jobs and income do PUA have anyway? I would love to be an 'expert' in picking up women but I have better goals in life and free pussy isn't on the top of my list!

Its not about agreeing. Its the experience needed to become good at approach. The muscle memory of the whole body need to transform.

 

[static]

Lots of stuff about harassment, and maybe the reason it comes off like harassment is because attractive women get approached multiple times by different men that they lump them together and categorize it as harassment. Harassment involves either intimidating, pressure or repetition. If I went up to the same girl 10 times, yea, that's harassment. If 10 men independently approached a single girl, that's not harassment. Bothering, yes. Annoying, yes, but not harassment by any definition written in the dictionary or legally. I mean, if some guys are trying to rewrite the dictionary just to use the word in context, then sure. You have to define specifically what harassment is then if you're not going to use the accepted definition of the word, because otherwise I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about. Kinda like how feminists now-a-days include cat-calling under sexual assault without telling anyone for the purpose of reporting sensationalist statistics and verbage.

Now, Bringing value to a relationship. I'm actually surprised a lot of people balk at this notion that a person can enrich the lives of the girls they approach, and attribute our impression that we do to arrogance or ego. So many in the sugar dating scene have expressed that their arrangement with their sugar baby isn't solely about the money. Guys like Ww have indicated it's bringing your baby into your world so she can experience things she wouldn't normally be able to. How is that so different than what a PUA is bringing to the table? PUA's may not always be bringing the girl to a 5-star restaurant, but the relationship a PUA develops with his girl is one based on experiences. He takes her to do things she never did before, do crazy things she never imagined herself doing, explore herself sexually and give her a (hopefully) unique and positive experience that she'll remember for the rest of her life. Is it really arrogance or egotistical to believe that my life taking place on multiple continents around the world, with unique tastes and cultures are valuable experiences that others might be interested in?

Maybe here's one new answer to @static 's question: PUA/gamers ***push***, preach, promote and of course sometimes literally market their ideas, beliefs, values, techniques, lifestyle etc much more aggressively than many other groups of highly sexually active people (e.g., p4p folks or swingers).

I'd like to reply to this but don't think I really understand your point clearly.

And, of course, although your post seems to dismiss it as trivial, it does require significant amounts of money, and not every guy can manage that. I suppose a p4p boot camp might be about how to increase one's income!

Still, I'm not sure I answered you because I'm not sure what point you were making.

-Ww

I was simply pointing out that comparing the virtues of PUA and P4P isn't a worthwhile endeavor. To put it bluntly, p4p really doesn't have beliefs, values, or techniques in the way that PUA does ( can't really comment on swinging, as I've never gotten into that scene). P4P you need money, and basic etiquette that you can more or less learn on your first trip to any establishment (at least I did, I remember being a nervous wreck when I called my first ad on craigslist back in the US). PUA is closer to a hobby like woodworking, dancing or martial arts in terms of volume of information. P4P, in getting more more money, like you mentioned is a method to get more P4P action, and as you noted a seminar would be "how to get more money" which exist in spades around the world (coincidentally, many are scams selling snake-oil, having been to a few ^^).

Whereas in PUA, it becomes a side benefit, not a goal. In fact, the reputable PUA promoters always advocate NOT using money to get the girl. Most of the guys (not the jaded guys from redpill, etc) trying to improve social skills to a level where looks, money and social status become irrelevant, yet in adopting that mindset, you gain skills that indirectly make you more successful in life. To most reputable PUA, money gives you access to a different class of girl, but it's not a means of getting the girl. Money gets you into the VIP room at a club, or into a 5 star hotel bar where there are career-oriented power women drinking $100/glass drinks, etc. In other words, money doesn't serve as a direct correlation to getting the girl in the same way P4P does (I pay, I get sex). However, the nice part about PUA is that even if you're destitute, you can still get the girl. P4P, when your money runs out, you're done

Also, having been a casual P4P participant off and on for over 10 years, I definitely don't underestimate the amount of money it requires. If you've noticed, I have yet to bash P4P in any capacity.

Hope that explains where I was coming from a little better what I was asking about.

Why is the turnover rate so high, do you think? Some PUAs/gamers (e.g., @Sinapse ) claim that it works so well for pretty much every guy who tries it, that I would have thought a low turnover rate would be implied. What fraction, would you guess or if you know, of the guys who try it find it worthwhile/useful enough to remain in the community for 3 years? Or for one year?

-Ww

Some guys get tired of it, some guys get married. I was personally in the game for 3-4 years before I got into a committed relationship. I know Sinapse has been going longer, but even he's calming down a bit, as well as others who have been in the game for awhile.

 

[Sinapse]

You can just ask the women. In fact, you need not even ask; if you spend much time around women of the sort that PUAs/gamers tend to target, you will hear them comment on it without being asked.

The answer is that a substantial number do find it harassing and unpleasant, ranging from mildly to extremely. Other women do not.

Women don't like men they aren't interested in approaching them. They don't know who they are interested in until after the approach is made. Women also say they love a good approach.

So you figure that one out. Should men simply not approach women because it might be slightly annoying to them for one second?

Why is the turnover rate so high, do you think? Some PUAs/gamers (e.g., @Sinapse ) claim that it works so well for pretty much every guy who tries it, that I would have thought a low turnover rate would be implied. What fraction, would you guess or if you know, of the guys who try it find it worthwhile/useful enough to remain in the community for 3 years? Or for one year?

-Ww

It's hard work. Most people quit whatever they begin, whether it's playing the saxophone or their diet regimen. Most of those things also have long term benefits

So that would put the Get-the-chicks community on the same level as telephone solicitors and spammers?

There is no sales in pickup, unlike p4p. Both sides must choose before the seduction can continue. Similarly (and I think this bit has been chronically difficult for a few of the mongers here to grasp) there is no imbalance of value simply because the result is sex (the man is not "getting" anything and the woman isn't "giving"). Both sides benefit (without monetary exchange). Women gain just as much (sometimes more!).

Second, you shouldn't want to have sex with every woman you approach.I agree that it's easy to fall into that mindset as a gamer, but it is a trap. This is another reason why the "PUA batting average" % is a fundamentally flawed metric.

Sinapse approaches 100 girls who physically appeal to him.

A. 25 girls don't want to talk for whatever reason.
B. 25 more stop and chat, but Sinapse doesn't particularly like enough to get their number so excuses himself.
C. 25 more give him their phone number and the conversation fizzles out for wherever reason (due to either side)
D. 25 more come out on a date. Sinapse chooses to take some home and send others home. Some of the girls choose to come, others don't.

Rejection goes both ways, at any phase of the interaction. What is my batting average if I choose to excuse myself? What is my self worth if I tie my ego up in having a "high batting average"? What is my value as a PUA if I pick up 100% of the women I talk to? To me, low. I couldnt care less about my batting average. All that matters is if I end up with women with which I have affinity.

I think another metric we really need to add is "thirst". How much does a guy crave sex vs how much is he getting it. Thirst is high if a guy craves but doesn't get sex. Thirsty guys are more likely to try to grasp and hold onto EVERY girl, even only mildly attractive ones. They are more likely to be needy, and more likely to pull hard and not be able to take no as an answer, and also "harass".

Guys who aren't thirsty don't particularly care since they live in abundance. If a girl says no, they let her go. If she seems irritated, they let her go. If a girl is super into them but they don't particularly like her, even if the sex would be a layup, they let her go. Within both P4P guys and PUAs there are thirsty guys and not thirsty guys.

 

[rick]

Really?? Wow. Do all PUA agree and need to go through this?

Seems like a lot of time and effort to get laid for free. What sort of jobs and income do PUA have anyway? I would love to be an 'expert' in picking up women but I have better goals in life and free pussy isn't on the top of my list!

I make well over 5000000 JPY, up to 10 in a month.
Coming from money and working the family business.
I wouldn't generalise if I were you. Some people enjoy relationships that form organically.
Not that I have anything against mongers, or people working in the sex business.
Then again, I don't employ many tactics used by the PUA community, and I don't consider myself an artist in that sense. I just like to learn about social interaction in a public context, and practice it when given the chance.

I'm already tired of this forum. Maybe moving on to something else would be nice.

 

[static]

Really?? Wow. Do all PUA agree and need to go through this?

Seems like a lot of time and effort to get laid for free. What sort of jobs and income do PUA have anyway? I would love to be an 'expert' in picking up women but I have better goals in life and free pussy isn't on the top of my list!

We come from all walks of life.

One guy who is one of the more successful I've seen is a programmer making plenty to be financially stable
Another guy who recently got out due to marriage is an engineer for a major electronics company here in Japan.
I'm a licensed high school teacher at a private school making more than enough to raise a family if I so chose to
Another guy is a lawyer, writer, etc

You're 100% right, it's a lot of effort just to get laid for free. Fortunately for the PUA community, it's not just about getting laid.

Think about it like this, so many people got into studying Japanese because they loved anime. Learning a language is hard as hell, and for something as shallow as a passing interest in anime, you'll never get even remotely close to understand, muchless communicate on a level that allows you to watch an episode of Gundam without subtitles. Along the way, you become interested in different aspects of the language, the culture, the history, etc (motivation is unique to the individual). That interest/desire in anime served as the initial boost, but along the way your motivations changed to be something else.

 

[Sinapse]

Timothy Leary once joked that LSD causes extreme psychosis in people who haven't taken it.

You could add, "PUA causes extreme anxiety and paranoia in those who aren't affected by it"

 

[Wwanderer]

@static - This post

https://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/whats-peoples-issues-with-pua.11280/page-7#post-66436

was helpful and sensible, imo. Thanks.

I agree with you that the word "harassment" is an exaggeration in some, probably most, cases...though not in all. @Solong and @Sinapse have sometimes spoken of women who "panic" and "flee" when approached by those worthies. These women would appear to at least feel harassed. But still, as you say, it is not harassment in any normal *legal* sense of the word. But there are more informal uses of the word too. For example, one could probably say that some of the mongers on TAG harass some of the PUA/gamers; it is more like that usage I'd think.

But in any case, you wrote "Bothering, yes. Annoying, yes...". Well, that's enough for me. I certainly don't think that people who knowingly bother and annoy strangers on a regular basis in pursuit of their own desires are behaving well, nor would I consider them to have an admirable hobby that leads them to self-improvement. It sounds more like it leads them to be unusually indifferent to other people's feelings, if anything...not really something normally associated with spiritual growth. For example, witness this:

Women don't like men they aren't interested in approaching them. They don't know who they are interested in until after the approach is made. Women also say they love a good approach.

So you figure that one out. Should men simply not approach women because it might be slightly annoying to them for one second?

Women are here being told how they feel. I am pretty sure, dead certain actually, that there are significant numbers of women who would strongly disagree, especially with the statements that 1- they don't know which men they fancy until the men take the initiative and 2 - their annoyance is only slight and brief (and thus, implicitly, unimportant). However, obviously, if you want to know how women really feel about something you shouldn't ask them; you should ask some high level PUA/gamer who can explain their feelings and views to them. (For the sarcasm impaired, that last sentence means the opposite of what literally it says.)

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

Women are here being told how they feel. I am pretty sure, dead certain actually, that there are significant numbers of women who would strongly disagree, especially with the statements that 1- they don't know which men they fancy until the men take the initiative and 2 - their annoyance is only slight and brief (and thus, implicitly, unimportant). However, obviously, if you want to know how women really feel about something you shouldn't ask them; you should ask some high level PUA/gamer who can explain their feelings and views to them. (For the sarcasm impaired, that last sentence means the opposite of what literally it says.)

If they see the men yes. In this case I'm talking about street / club approaches where the guy is coming in and the girl isn't expecting it. Certainly women can know who they like when they can see / know the guy first. But if he sees her from a distance and approaches, how on earth is he or she to know who likes who until they talk?? In this sense, I don't see it as "telling women what they feel" as much as following logic. You can't like what you don't see / know.

2 - assuming you're being respectful and not grabbing her, insulting her, following her, or doing whack catcalling like "hey baby you should smile!" Or something like that, you can reasonably assume that the average woman is not going to freak out at a simple, honest approach. If she does, it has less to do with the approach and more to do with her overblown reaction.

On top of that, these are things which have been said to me, repeatedly, by women on this board and in real life. @User#8628 in this thread of course being the most recent to say she appreciates a good approach.

I would *guess* (And from what I've heard time and time again) that most women like a good approach, and dislike a bad approach. By not approaching, you are depriving women the wonderful experience of getting to know you @Wwanderer . Is that something you can live with??

Guy she doesn't like talking to her on the street= creepy nampa

Guy she does like talking to her on the street = destiny! Luck!

The distinction is only made AFTER it is clear which kind of guy he is. Namely, after he approaches. Given that, approaching is very reasonable.

 

[rick]

Guy she doesn't like talking to her on the street= creepy nampa

Guy she does like talking to her on the street = destiny! Luck!

The distinction is only made AFTER it is clear which kind of guy he is. Namely, after he approaches. Given that, approaching is very reasonable.

And pickup teaches you how to be the latter.

something something 運命 something

 

[Solong]

So that would put the Get-the-chicks community on the same level as telephone solicitors and spammers?

If a friendly and attractive woman approaches you and says hello, you are going to spaz or freak out on her like she's a solicitor or spammer?

What a sad life that must be, where a person fears any human interaction with new people. I kind of think that not everyone wants to live in their basement or hide in their room. Some of us like to meet new people, see new faces, and have a sense of adventure.

And there is a difference between approaching people for money versus being genuinely attracted or interested in the person.

 

[Babaram]

Sinapse approaches 100 girls who physically appeal to him.

A. 25 girls don't want to talk for whatever reason.
B. 25 more stop and chat, but Sinapse doesn't particularly like enough to get their number so excuses himself.
C. 25 more give him their phone number and the conversation fizzles out for wherever reason (due to either side)
D. 25 more come out on a date. Sinapse chooses to take some home and send others home. Some of the girls choose to come, others don't.

This is both a startling and telling confession The self-styled master of this paint-by-numbers approach to lovemaking admits that he has to be a jerk 100 times to get laid one time. Desperation must be very high to follow these teachings.

When I was your age, on a Sunday morning, I commonly woke up with a hangover next to two snoring beauties. What are you doing proselitizing PUA on TAG when you should be fucking?

 

[rick]

When I was your age, on a Sunday morning, I commonly woke up with a hangover next to two snoring beauties. What are you doing proselitizing PUA on TAG when you should be fucking?

Paid for or picked up? World of difference.

Additionally: "commonly"
So, not every Sunday.
Besides, some people just don't have your sexual appetite

 

[Sinapse]

This is both a startling and telling confession The self-styled master of this paint-by-numbers approach to lovemaking admits that he has to be a jerk 100 times to get laid one time. Desperation must be very high to follow these teachings.

When I was your age, on a Sunday morning, I commonly woke up with a hangover next to two snoring beauties. What are you doing proselitizing PUA on TAG when you should be fucking?

Your inability to read correctly dazzles the senses

And I did wake up on a tropical island next to a pretty young French girl since you were wondering ^^

No hangover tho..

 

[Babaram]

And there is a difference between approaching people for money versus being genuinely attracted or interested in the person.

Hint: Your incessant and grating "PUA is holier than thou amoral P4P" won't make you many friends on a forum that is mainly dedicated to P4P. It's Sunday. Apparently, you don"t have anything sexier to do , so go to church already.

 

[rick]

Hint: Your incessant and grating "PUA is holier than thou amoral P4P" won't make you many friends on a forum that is mainly dedicated to P4P. It's Sunday. Apparently, you don"t have anything sexier to do , so go to church already.

Why the hostility? He never insinuated that one was better than the other.
It is a simple fact that p4p requires money. The acronym makes that clear.
If you can sleep with any of the escorts you've done so without paying, then go ahead. The fact is you can't.
I wonder if you woke up with a hangover and two sexy girls today, too.

 

[Babaram]

And I did wake up on a tropical island next to a pretty young French girl since you were wondering ^^

Once with one. After he pissed off the whole island, and had more than a few bad-ass Samoans come after him.

 

[static]

But in any case, you wrote "Bothering, yes. Annoying, yes...". Well, that's enough for me. I certainly don't think that people who knowingly bother and annoy strangers on a regular basis in pursuit of their own desires are behaving well, nor would I consider them to have an admirable hobby that leads them to self-improvement.

That's a point I can respect, but to remain consistent, you would have to share the same level of hate for those guys handing out tissue in front of the station, door to door mormons/jehovah's witness, izakaya advertisers, etc, etc

Women are here being told how they feel. I am pretty sure, dead certain actually, that there are significant numbers of women who would strongly disagree, especially with the statements that 1- they don't know which men they fancy until the men take the initiative and 2 - their annoyance is only slight and brief (and thus, implicitly, unimportant). However, obviously, if you want to know how women really feel about something you shouldn't ask them; you should ask some high level PUA/gamer who can explain their feelings and views to them. (For the sarcasm impaired, that last sentence means the opposite of what literally it says.)

-Ww

Actually, he's referencing what the women in this thread have said themselves here and in other threads. @User#8628 earlier mentioned she loves a good pick up, and there have been times where she's been approached, rejected him then noticed he was kind of cute and maybe shouldn't have rejected him.

Second point is actually more of an old joke (and I'm probably butchering it):
Man walks into a bar, walks up to the most beautiful girl in the bar and said "Will you have sex with me for $1,000,000?" The woman pondered this for a moment and said "Yea!"
The man then reaches in his pocket and puts $20 on the table and says "Okay, lets go!," the woman, furious exclaims back, "I'm not that kind of girl!"
The man smiles and says "Well, you've already said you are, we're just negotiating now."

A woman may be appalled at the very idea of me, an average looking guy approaching them and saying "Hi." However, if 5 minutes later, Hugh Jackman (Or insert whoever the male symbol of beauty is now-a-days) walked up and said "Hi," I'd be willing to bet most women would get weak-kneed, and clear their schedule. It's an extreme example, but much like the above joke, we can draw a somewhat reasonable conclusion that if the right guy, in the right circumstances approached a woman, she would willingly have an interaction that individual. PUA are simply trying to figure out why and how Hugh Jackman can do it, yet average joe blow can't. To say "It's because he's huge jackman! he has money, status, looks, etc, etc" is exactly how you get those redpill bitter guys, who I really don't count as PUA's. I consider them people who failed on the road to becoming a PUA.

The use of pseudo-science like NLP and such is simply our attempt at explaining something as ambiguous as Hugh Jackman's social status. Is Hugh confident because he has social status/looks/money, etc? Or is he naturally confident and that lead him to be successful in getting all of the above? If it's the former, you get the redpill crowd. If it's the latter, it becomes a goal that anyone can get, which is where guys like me and Sinapse live. Alice made and 4vibe kinda got into it over the whole "natural" "attractive" guy not having training, but that gets largely into the nature vs nurture argument. A guy was born physically attractive. Is he a social butterfly because he was also blessed with the social butterfly gene, or is it because society treated him better because he was attractive as opposed to me who was bullied my entire K-12 life? Again, if it's the former, there's nothing we can do about it; the latter, we can do something about it. By establishing it as a "field of study," it gives us a common language we can all communicate and have these discussions about. The truth of the matter is that the science is still very much out on this, as our "accepted" sciences (biology, neuroscience, etc) have yet to answer these questions, thusly I do think it quite unfair to refer to it as pseudo-science.

Now, one thing that did get kind of glossed over that I can totally understand people hating is that much like any other hobby, we need practice. I can understand the objection to the concept of using women as a medium of practice, yet, most of us even though we are practicing, we are still aiming to show women a good time, open them up to new experiences and try to add value to their lives. Like Sinapse said, most of us typically don't sleep with just any girl, we have specific traits we like and strive to go after girls we like, yet if in the course of the interaction we find things we don't like or we lose interest, we leave. Maybe in the beginning, guys tend to objectify women, but they're still getting their feet, much like a guy new to the P4P scene may get a little rough with escorts when he assumes that since he's paying, he can do whatever he wants.

I get the feeling that most people are viewing PUA's as a guy who tricks women into going on a date, and while on the date, they don't care about anything the girl is saying and they're just calculating the next move to get the girl into bed so he can bang her and throw her out at 3 in the morning so he can go back to the club and find some drunk party girl to take home for round 2. I'm sure guys like this exist, but I've never met em within the community.

 

[roots reggae]

I ma

I'm already tired of this forum. Maybe moving on to something else would be nice.

Yeah, any longer and it should be published in a self-help guide!

 

[Babaram]

Why the hostility?

Thin-skinned, aren't we?
I repeat, a real PUA laughs-off rejection, and his superior self-worth makes him be above criticism. Disappointed.

I wonder if you woke up with a hangover and two sexy girls today, too.

I'm old. Gave up the booze and am down to waking up next to one sexy naked Japanese girl daily. If we want company, we rent .

 

[Babaram]

@static: Since we are dispensing self-help advice: Wall'o'words are very much out of style. The demographic you target rarely reads beyond the first para. Video would be better.

 

[rick]

Thin-skinned, aren't we?
I repeat, a real PUA laughs-off rejection, and his superior self-worth makes him be above criticism. Disappointed. I'm old. Gave up the booze and am down to waking up next to one sexy naked Japanese girl daily. If we want company, we rent .

Couple things...
I don't take any of this personally, least of all posts not directed at me, but what I am is curious about why people behave a certain way.
Are you attempting to tell others, based on your limited understanding, what a "real PUA" is?
Don't worry, I won't be thinking on your remarks for the rest of the day. But maybe we can have a little discussion.

 

[static]

@static: Since we are dispensing self-help advice: Wall'o'words are very much out of style. The demographic you target rarely reads beyond the first para. Video would be better.

Sorry, I had enough respect for you guys to assume you were both literate and had an attention span greater than a 5 year old. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[Solong]

This is both a startling and telling confession The self-styled master of this paint-by-numbers approach to lovemaking admits that he has to be a jerk 100 times to get laid one time. Desperation must be very high to follow these teachings.

When I was your age, on a Sunday morning, I commonly woke up with a hangover next to two snoring beauties. What are you doing proselitizing PUA on TAG when you should be fucking?

Oh my goodness. Are you telling us you were 100% successful with any woman you approached. Come on bro, there is the fantasy and then there is reality of how things actually happen. 99.9% success rate is acceptable ;-)