Why Group Dates & Meeting Her Friends Could Be Bad

[just4fun]

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Maybe if it was called something different than PUA it would be a "cleaner" sell? If sex wasn't the main focal point (but sex sells I know) then.......hey......I'm just throwing out what's in my head. I'm not a very trusting person (for many reasons) so when someone tells me that "This is it" then I always look for the reasons it's not.
Yeah, this is a good point. I try to avoid calling it "PUA" as much as I can on my own site and in my material because it conjures up a nasty image in my own mind as well - I would really not like to be thought of in the same breath as RSD Julien or Roosh V, and certainly not in the same category as "negging". There are a lot of questionable things that happen under the banner of PUA, I'll admit that for sure.

Any other ideas? I think "life coach" sounds annoying and guru-ish. Dating sounds like sitting in a restaurant.. not sure what else there would be.

This was my only point.....glad you seem to agree.....I prefer being on the same page with peoples thinking......life's just so much easier that way.....

 

[Solong]

The main body of the post from which this is taken raises questions that seem too subtle and complicated to take up here (such as why it may be easier and more effective to let something happen than it is to try to make it...matters better addressed over a beer or something), but I do feel like I can explain why PUA is being compared to "snake oil" etc by some guys. I also can see why this bothers you and that the distinctions you make in the above quote may be important ones...thus it seems worth explaining.

Imo and for me at least, the reason is not that I know enough about PUA to conclude that it is ineffective, rather it is the way, the style, the "look and feel" of how PUA is being promoted and advertised/sold that makes me (and many of us) think of scams and snake oil. It has that "too good to be true" ring of advertisements for products sold on cable channel infomercials or of promises by street touts for their clubs or of sales pitches for cheap land in Florida etc. Fantastic promises are made or amazing stories told which imply that anyone would be a total idiot not to try it or buy it or whatever. I mean, think about it. Go read your own bootcamp ad on TAG. The promise is that not only can you have all the fantastic sex you could ever want with 100s of women of all and any kind but that it will also make everything else about your life better...and all this to be accomplished by a weekend's worth of training and for a modest fee...or even for free. It simply doesn't appear intuitively plausible. It also has the ring, the look and feel, of some sort of religious cult pitch.

There are many many people in the world promoting or pitching things that seem too good to be true, and those who have been around the block a few times (including almost all TAGers) have by now that learned that they simply aren't (true). That's just what it sounds like. Maybe PUA is the real thing and actually does both provide you with endless hot women to bed and at the same time get your laundry cleaner, but if so, it needs a better ad agency...one that doesn't crank out those late night TV infomercials for an endless string of miracle products ("Not available in stores! Operators standing by to take your call!").

You mention @User#16452 as a point of comparison. If she were claiming that a session with her would change you into such a great lover that no women who went to bed with you would ever leave you voluntarily or that you'd subsequently be able to write best selling novels or even that it would be the best sex you'd ever have in your life no matter who you are, TAGers would be no less skeptical of her. But all she is saying is that she will be your companion and p4p sex partner for X amount of time if you give her Y amount of yen...pretty much what all escorts do and thus totally plausible and believable.

Another way of putting this is that if PUA were truly as great and magical as its proponents claim, it would already be well known to and embraced by nearly everyone. There would be no need for anyone to be working so hard to promote and sell it. It would be like ice cream or smart phones or oral sex or Star Wars movies etc.

-Ww

Ww, you sound like a pimp or prostitute upset that men may have some other options. If you are happy buying women, then don't worry, try so hard to tear down, or impose your beliefs on others.

PUA is free and optional. A person can take up PUA entirely for FREE or develop their own system. It's like Yoga, you can practice by yourself or pay for a class.

When you don't know anything about PUA, and start spouting off, it looks very odd. Jumping on PUA threads with ridiculous ignorance and on the attack, is like a PUA jumping on every prostitute and monger post, and posting anti-prostitution rhetoric or crazy talk.

"Nearly every prostitute was sexually abused as a child and is forced to do prostitution because they are sex slaves or drug addicts. Men who use the services of such abused women are abhorrent sex monsters and abusers of women."

Is that P4P to you? And it would get tiresome if somebody was perpetually pushing this distorted angle. But that's exactly what you are doing with PUA.

 

[Wwanderer]

If a guy feels he is completely incompetent with women or doesn't want to take his time to talk with them, then he is free to buy prostitutes.

I still think we should get away from contrasting PUA with p4p because, as I keep saying, they aren't the only two options. They aren't even the two primary options!

That said, neither of the reasons you mention are major ones that men choose to do p4p, although they do apply in some cases. It would be like saying you are free to eat in a restaurant if you feel totally incompetent to cook or don't have time to cook for yourself. Some people are in restaurants for those reasons, but not many.

Nobody is trying to block your choice to buy women, so a monger shouldn't be worried about if a guy uses or likes PUA. Think about it. The only people worried about PUA, would be people with a vested interest to limit the options of others. P4P or PUA, do as you like.

Nor is anyone trying to "block" a guys' to use PUA. Rather there is an attempt to discuss its cons/disadvantages as well as its pros/advantages. How is that not relevant to or appropriate for threads about PUA? To revert to one of your favorite metaphors, if this were a forum about martial arts would it only be reasonable to appropriate to post about the advantages of a technique/style/method (say Kick-Boxing or Wrestling), or would comments about their weaknesses and disadvantages not also be appropriate?

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

Ww, you sound like a pimp or prostitute upset that men may have some other options. If you are happy buying women, then don't worry, try so hard to tear down, or impose your beliefs on others.

PUA is free and optional. A person can take up PUA entirely for FREE or develop their own system. It's like Yoga, you can practice by yourself or pay for a class.

When you don't know anything about PUA, and start spouting off, it looks very odd. Jumping on PUA threads with ridiculous ignorance and on the attack, is like a PUA jumping on every prostitute and monger post, and posting anti-prostitution rhetoric or crazy talk.

"Nearly every prostitute was sexually abused as a child and is forced to do prostitution because they are sex slaves or drug addicts. Men who use the services of such abused women are abhorrent sex monsters and abusers of women."

Is that P4P to you? And it would get tiresome if somebody was perpetually pushing this distorted angle. But that's exactly what you are doing with PUA.

WTF??? Sometimes you make me wonder SL......really.......

 

[Solong]

I still think we should get away from contrasting PUA with p4p because, as I keep saying, they aren't the only two options. They aren't even the two primary options!

That said, neither of the reasons you mention are major ones that men choose to do p4p, although they do apply in some cases. It would be like saying you are free to eat in a restaurant if you feel totally incompetent to cook or don't have time to cook for yourself. Some people are in restaurants for those reasons, but not many.



Nor is anyone trying to "block" a guys' to use PUA. Rather there is an attempt to discuss its cons/disadvantages as well as its pros/advantages. How is that not relevant to or appropriate for threads about PUA? To revert to one of your favorite metaphors, if this were a forum about martial arts would it only be reasonable to appropriate to post about the advantages of a technique/style/method (say Kick-Boxing or Wrestling), or would comments about their weaknesses and disadvantages not also be appropriate?

-Ww

I answered a lot of this in the post before this one. You are not trying to have a debate, but push and impose your beliefs, in the disguise of ridiculous "suspicions" and obfuscation. For you, just go buy all your women. But that's not what every other guy wants or has to do. Simple.

 

[Wwanderer]

Ww, you sound like a pimp or prostitute upset that men may have some other options. ...

Meta-discussion, discussing the discussion and its participants almost never goes anywhere...and I certainly won't go far in that direction. But fwiiw, you sound like someone who has made up their own mind and simply doesn't wish to hear anything that might challenge their views. If so, fine...just tune out. If you think I don't or can't have anything useful/interesting/correct to say about PUA, then it would most sensible for you to stop reading my PUA posts, I'd think.

But if we are going to discuss the topic, it would be better to discuss the actual arguments rather than who made them or why surely.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

For you, just go buy all your women. But that's not what every other guy wants or has to do. Simple.

Neither do I. Where did you ever get that idea? Did I ever say I only see women by p4p? I do and have seen many women on a np4p basis and have mentioned that fact numerous times on TAG. But what if I were p4p only? What possible difference does my sex/social life make to the pros and cons of PUA? It is the arguments, not who makes them, that are relevant...but I am repeating myself.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Neither do I. Where did you ever get that idea? Did I ever say I only see women by p4p? I do and have seen many women on a np4p basis and have mentioned that fact numerous times on TAG. But what if I were p4p only? What possible difference does my sex life make to the pros and cons of PUA? It is the arguments, not who makes them, that are relevant...but I am repeating myself.

-Ww

A few PUA on this board can't defend the entire PUA industry, no more than you can defend the entire P4P industry. That should be obvious.

And PUA, is simply the art of pick up. Nearly every guy has his strategy to get dates or women. Instead of blindly fumbling around cluelessly, some people compile their strategies into a system or methodology. That's it.

Some guys keep their system a secret, some openly discuss theirs, and some sell their system. Not magic, not a trick. If you like a particular system or need help, then get coaching or buy a book, if not then proceed as you always have or buy women. Do as you like.

To imply all PUA is snake oil sales is absolutely ludicrous. It's like a PUA saying all prostitutes are forced sex slaves. It's rhetoric for an agenda that is not strongly connected to actual facts. And it's not an honest debate, if I simply repeat "all prostitutes are sex slaves" over and over again or only choose to throw up evidence that supports my preconceived and unchangeable opinion.

My other point is it's tiresome seeing so many PUA or non-monger threads derailed, to what amounts to a guy that is adamant about buying pussy, and is upset with guys that don't or whatever methods they use. If a guy wants to buy all his pussy, feel free. But, lets begin to debate non-prostitution topics specifically, versus having an agenda to derail all non-monger threads. All sex isn't prostitution sex, so let's not be afraid of that reality. More options, not less, are good for men.

 

[Solong]

WTF??? Sometimes you make me wonder SL......really.......

Referring more to Ww, and his rhetoric. I'm just trying to get to the core of what this "PUA" debate is about. PUA is NOT 1 system or method, but many. So you usually can't say X about PUA and it apply across the board to everything.

And nearly every guy has a style of pick up. A Pick Up Artist is just compiling his methodology into a system. Some sell it, some don't, and there are many different systems.

 

[Wwanderer]

Well I do like a good beer

We agree on something!!

@Sinapse - This is an *excellent* post imo and a breath of fresh air in this thread. You present your views in a clear and thoughtful way (as opposed to defending them from attacks, real or imagined) and examine the arguments I and others have made in a balanced way. Thank you for writing this.

Normally I only quote points on which I wish to comment, which usually means points on which I disagree, but I like several of your statements in this post so much that I am going to repeat those that seem particularly good to me...in most cases without further comment:

Right, I agree it seems to promise quite a bit. But it's never going to be fixed with one weekend. The weekend is a boost, a turbo charge, a kick in the ass to fix the largest and most prominent issues that otherwise might have taken you months or years. After that is when the real battle begins - internally. If a guy doesn't have discipline and the ability to repeatedly put himself in situations which might be harmful to the ego, you can bet he won't succeed at pickup. He has to be prepared to get knocked down into the mud again and again, and keep getting back up.

yes, "letting it happen" is a valuable piece of advice, but let's not confuse that with "doing nothing" which is usually what guys are doing anyway.

I do honestly believe that pickup and self-reflection is one of many ways to seriously improve all areas of your life

the road is fraught with peril which is very real. You can end up treating women like stepping stones, notches, or objects. You can neglect your health and other friendships if you go out to environments with lots of alcohol and smoke and bad food. You can get creepy and weird if you apply your "gamey" behavior in situations where it shouldn't be present, like on friends' girlfriends or people who you shouldn't be hitting on. There are very real and dark traps.

I have several times said that we aren't (yet) discussing my primary misgivings about PUA, but in the "peril" you mention and which I have underlined in the above quote, you have indeed hit on one of them. I am glad to see that you recognize this as a hazard.

Not everyone who gets into self-improvement gets into pickup, but nearly everyone who gets into pickup gets into self-improvement.

Everybody has the capability to improve but not everyone has the drive. And that's a personal question.

Yeah, this is a good point. I try to avoid calling it "PUA" as much as I can on my own site and in my material because it conjures up a nasty image in my own mind as well - I would really not like to be thought of in the same breath as RSD Julien or Roosh V, and certainly not in the same category as "negging". There are a lot of questionable things that happen under the banner of PUA, I'll admit that for sure.

This is a very big problem in this whole discussion I think; PUA is too nebulous and vague/broad a term to be discussed very effectively. Whether one is praising it or criticizing it, whatever one says is probably true of some forms of PUA and false for others. PUAs in the debate understandably wish to "defend" (an unhelpful mindset actually, imo) the version of PUA they practice, but just because a criticism doesn't apply to their personal PUA system/style, that doesn't mean that it isn't relevant to PUA more generally. For example, negging (or is it "neging") is closely associated with PUA by many people; I have even heard people (women) say "PUA is neg(g)ing", which even I know is false. But I guess (not sure) that some self-identified PUAs do neg and some don't. So what can we say about it? Beats me!

Anyway, again thanks for a post that makes me think we can have a useful conversation on these topics. I hope my last previous post was of some help to you in understanding why many people associate PUA promotion with "snake oil" sales pitches, however invalid/erroneous that association might be.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

PUA is NOT 1 system or method, but many. So you usually can't say X about PUA and it apply across the board to everything.

I very much agree, as mentioned in my just previous post in response to @Sinapse. My only additional comment is that what you say is equally true whether X is a positive or a negative comment. From this point of view it almost doesn't make sense to say anything at all about PUA, one way or the other.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

Referring more to Ww, and his rhetoric. I'm just trying to get to the core of what this "PUA" debate is about. PUA is NOT 1 system or method, but many. So you usually can't say X about PUA and it apply across the board to everything.

And nearly every guy has a style of pick up. A Pick Up Artist is just compiling his methodology into a system. Some sell it, some don't, and there are many different systems.

SL.......I've almost always enjoyed the things you talk about (you can tell in how many likes I've given you) in what you have extreme knowledge about because in my life experience (which I have an abundance of) and agree with you in so many aspects of what you say.......but on this thread you say one thing and then refer back the same thing in an opposite response and that's bothersome in way to many respects. We've never met face to face (but I think I've seen you in action on the train) but we won't get into that.....but i have met some members here and have become fairly decent friends with one.......so from their posts.....I can see where they're coming from......
In my life.....I've really never had to go up to a girl and try to talk to them......they used to come up to me in my........"special" days...but those days have passed.....so I adapt to a new system.........and I've tried this and that and I know what works for "Me". Why is this thread still so active......it seems to be a my way is the only way......the I'm right and everyone else is wrong......it's just not cool.......opinions are like assholes you know......everyone has one......