Why Group Dates & Meeting Her Friends Could Be Bad

[Wwanderer]

The above couple of posts would give any reasonable reader the idea that I am all about earning money and that I see it as a/the major goal of my life. Actually this is not the case. In my whole life I have hardly payed the slightest attention to earning money, neither by working nor by investing. In fact on each occasion in my life on which I have had the choice between two or more different jobs, I have in *every* case chosen the option with the smallest salary (not for that reason of course but because I liked it most for other, non-financial, reasons). Nevertheless, I have ended up with being pretty well off financially, though not vastly wealthy or anything...maybe I would have had more if I had payed attention to money and tried. As it has turned out for me, people pay me ludicrously well to do things that I enjoy so much that I would do them for free, or even pay to do some of them, if it were necessary. Basically I'm just absurdly lucky.

And, in a way, this is very closely related to a point that often comes up in my debates with @Solong and other PUAs about the notion of working/studying so hard to master the skill of dealing with women...of even regarding it as a skill in the first place. In my opinion and experience, the easiest and most effective way to do many difficult things in life is to simply do them without conscious effort or even intention. Just "don't worry, be happy" and let them happen on their own. Sounds crazy I know, but it has worked for me...in many different contexts.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Right, definitely my view. That said, I don't think that setting up a discussion of how men deal with women or conduct their sex lives as a dichotomy between PUA and mongering is too useful or valid since the large majority of sex on the planet involves neither one.



I accept your very good point that the skills and attitudes involved in PUA are also useful and important in many many other contexts in life. Fair enough. However, that is a different kind of useful than finding a way to earn money. The money *itself* is useful for many many things, not just the skills you pick up in learning how to earn money (in whatever way).



Tbh, I do have a somewhat negative view of PUA, especially "cold PUA", but mostly for reasons other than those mentioned in or relevant to this thread. So, I'd just as soon not go into them here. I have the vague intention of someday starting a thread with a title along the lines of "The Downside of PUA/nampa"...if for no other reason than to slightly balance the massive "advertising" of its advantages here. I don't think it is a totally bad thing though; almost every form of remotely rational behavior has its pros and cons. You are also correct that I may not understand what PUA is very well; I have never tried it and have never felt the need for it (even when I had nearly no money for mongering); it has never been much more than a minor blip on my radar, so to speak.

In symmetry, you give the impression that you have a very negative and stereotypical view of p4p sex that doesn't reflect reality etc. I note the language you use in the quote above: "throws money at the problem" vs "uses skill". The former phrase is a cliché frequently used to describe spending money in a wasteful or unthinking/needless way; it has negative connotations. By contrast, using skills is normally seen as a positive thing to do and is mostly used in an admiring sense.



I'm happy to agree to that "cease fire" and would only point out that the post you made above about mongers being in prideful denial about being unable to attract women or having no other way to attract women etc appeared to me to be casting a fairly heavy stone...and I again note the use of language like "burning through money" that carries strong connotations of wastefulness or foolish spending. For a lot of mongers in my general age and income ranges, it really is much like a luxury hobby...expensive perhaps but no more so than many other forms of recreation that deliver quite a bit less fun and pleasure.

-Ww

Full stop on one of the points you seem to be trying to slide under the door. Spending loads of money on prostitutes has nothing to do with a man's job qualifications or ability to earn money. It can simply mean he wastes all of his available income on an addiction.

 

[Wwanderer]

Full stop one of the points you seem to be trying to slide under the door. Spending loads of money on prostitutes has nothing to do with a man's qualifications or ability to earn money. It can simply mean he wastes all of his available income on an addiction.

It might mean that or it might not; it can also mean that he spends on it like an expensive hobby (golf or boating or travel). Both types of mongers exist. And your point is...?

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Right, definitely my view. That said, I don't think that setting up a discussion of how men deal with women or conduct their sex lives as a dichotomy between PUA and mongering is too useful or valid since the large majority of sex on the planet involves neither one.



I accept your very good point that the skills and attitudes involved in PUA are also useful and important in many many other contexts in life. Fair enough. However, that is a different kind of useful than finding a way to earn money. The money *itself* is useful for many many things, not just the skills you pick up in learning how to earn money (in whatever way).



Tbh, I do have a somewhat negative view of PUA, especially "cold PUA", but mostly for reasons other than those mentioned in or relevant to this thread. So, I'd just as soon not go into them here. I have the vague intention of someday starting a thread with a title along the lines of "The Downside of PUA/nampa"...if for no other reason than to slightly balance the massive "advertising" of its advantages here. I don't think it is a totally bad thing though; almost every form of remotely rational behavior has its pros and cons. You are also correct that I may not understand what PUA is very well; I have never tried it and have never felt the need for it (even when I had nearly no money for mongering); it has never been much more than a minor blip on my radar, so to speak.

In symmetry, you give the impression that you have a very negative and stereotypical view of p4p sex that doesn't reflect reality etc. I note the language you use in the quote above: "throws money at the problem" vs "uses skill". The former phrase is a cliché frequently used to describe spending money in a wasteful or unthinking/needless way; it has negative connotations. By contrast, using skills is normally seen as a positive thing to do and is mostly used in an admiring sense.



I'm happy to agree to that "cease fire" and would only point out that the post you made above about mongers being in prideful denial about being unable to attract women or having no other way to attract women etc appeared to me to be casting a fairly heavy stone...and I again note the use of language like "burning through money" that carries strong connotations of wastefulness or foolish spending. For a lot of mongers in my general age and income ranges, it really is much like a luxury hobby...expensive perhaps but no more so than many other forms of recreation that deliver quite a bit less fun and pleasure.

-Ww

Furthermore, you starting a thread on the "downside of PUA", would be like me or any other PUA starting a thread on "the downside of prostitution". Notice how the PUAs don't feel compelled to go that route, because even if they have a personal negative view of it, most would realize it's a choice or preference. And my actual view is a matter of men having options. The more options, the better. I believe a man should take a certain route, money or skills, because that's best for him.

 

[Wwanderer]

Furthermore, you starting a thread on the "downside of PUA", would be like me or any other PUA starting a thread on "the downside of prostitution". Notice how the PUAs don't feel compelled to go that route, because even if they have a personal negative view of it, most would realize it's a choice or preference. And my actual view is a matter of men having options. The more options, the better. I believe a man should take a certain route, money or skills, because that's best for him.

Fwiiw, I wouldn't see any need for such a downsides thread if there weren't such a huge volume of stuff being posted with the goal of promoting and sometimes literally selling PUA. That aspect of the PUA community/industry has always puzzled me a bit ; there is a sort of missionary zeal to its proponents...and even the fact that it seems to have so many proponents, not just practitioners, seems vaguely suspect to me. When someone tries so very hard and persistently to convince anyone who will listen that they are onto something that is so unequivocally and perfect great, it makes me...mmmmm...suspicious. And it makes me start looking for downsides.

Also fwiiw, I see plenty of downsides to the monger route as well and would have no problem with a thread discussing them.

If, as you say, you want guys/people to choose between many options, doesn't it follow that they ought/need to consider the cons as well as the pros of each option?

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Fwiiw, I wouldn't see any need for such a downsides thread if there weren't such a huge volume of stuff being posted with the goal of promoting and sometimes literally selling PUA. That aspect of the PUA community/industry has always puzzled me a bit ; there is a sort of missionary zeal to its proponents...and even the fact that it seems to have so many proponents, not just practitioners, seems vaguely suspect to me. When someone tries so very hard and persistently to convince anyone who will listen that they are onto something that is so unequivocally and perfect great, it makes me...mmmmm...suspicious. And it makes me start looking for downsides.

Also fwiiw, I see plenty of downsides to the monger route as well and would have no problem with a thread discussing them.

If, as you say, you want guys/people to choose between many options, doesn't it follow that they ought/need to consider the cons as well as the pros of each option?

-Ww

Ww, your post history and comments here show you aren't interested in any balanced debate, but only promoting prostitution. You have already admitted to knowing next to nothing about PUA.

You doing a thread on PUA, is like a prostitute doing such, because she has a self-serving agenda. It's like oil and coal companies doing a hit piece on the "downside of clean energy".

 

[just4fun]

I've enjoyed reading this but aren't you getting a tad off topic here solong? We all think we have our own skills for getting what we want (well....maybe I'm over stating here) but the bottom line is to achieve "something" Ww has his ways and you have yours......and it is like apples and oranges. I've played on both sides of your two fences and I'm usually happy with both outcomes.......you both like-prefer different things.....and others here like something else. Solong, I think ur extremely intelligent and good at what you do......with and probably without women and Ww is the same.

Btw.....I don't want to meet her friends......

 

[Solong]

I've enjoyed reading this but aren't you getting a tad off topic here solong? We all think we have our own skills for getting what we want (well....maybe I'm over stating here) but the bottom line is to achieve "something" Ww has his ways and you have yours......and it is like apples and oranges. I've played on both sides of your two fences and I'm usually happy with both outcomes.......you both like-prefer different things.....and others here like something else. Solong, I think ur extremely intelligent and good at what you do......with and probably without women and Ww is the same.

Btw.....I don't want to meet her friends......

Topic was derailed long ago. Look back from the beginning. Even Meiji had joined in.

 

[just4fun]

I'm way to hung over to go back and start from scratch......just wanted to put my 2 cents in......

 

[Wwanderer]

Ww, your post history and comments here show you aren't interested in any balanced debate, but only promoting prostitution.

Why in the world would I want to promote prostitution?

If I promote/favor/prefer anything these days it is sugar dating, often with women who are far far from pro escorts, sometimes with women who are fully pro escorts (but an escort and a sugar date with them are very very different things). But in general I don't see why a guy would want to promote his preferred "skills" and "ways" as @just4fun aptly described them above. Indeed, it is precisely the fact that so many PUAs promote their "skills and ways" so aggressively and incessantly that makes me feel that the whole thing is a bit dodgy...has a "snake oil" feel to it. But the downsides of PUA I would list are different, and I won't go into them now.

(@just4fun has spent some time with me and a few of my SBs. He is in a good position to comment on whether or not sugar dating as I do it is anything like seeing escorts.)

You doing a thread on PUA, is like a prostitute doing such, because she has a self-serving agenda. It's like oil and coal companies doing a hit piece on the "downside of clean energy".

Well, don't sweat it. If I ever do get around to starting such a thread, you and any other PUA who is so inclined (@Sinapse very likely) are completely free to jump in and correct/debate whatever I say...no different really from when guys dispute the advantages of PUA/nampa in threads promoting them.

-Ww

 

[split]

These viewpoints/perspectives of all sides have been really enlightening. I see good points with everyone's input along with persuasive arguments. It's left me even more perplexed , which, as I was once told by a professor is the byproduct of gaining knowledge.

 

[Wwanderer]

These viewpoints/persepctives of all sides have been really enlightening. I see good points with everyone's input along with persuasive arguments. It's left me even more perplexed , which, as I was once told by a professor is the byproduct of gaining knowledge.

Nominated for best post of the thread!

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

I definitely do not believe that PUA guys are losers who cannot make a living etc.

If that's true then...

The way I'd take that metaphor is that PUA is learning to fish for oneself, and the mongering route is to get an education and/or useful skills, a work-ethic, a good job etc that put you in a position to always be able to eat fish or beef or chicken or whatever food you wish...as well as do many things beyond feeding yourself. It is a lot more efficient and flexible than trying to learn not only how to fish but also how to raise steers and chickens plus how to cook them etc.

Why do you say this? You are basically saying PUA is learning to fish for yourself (get girls on your own power) vs mongering which is getting a good job and education/skills. This argument is so flawed it's hard to take it seriously.. there's absolutely nothing about visiting a prostitute that would equate it with having any of those things you said - education, useful skills, work-ethic, or a good job. Any of those things could just as equally apply to a PUA. SOME guys who visit prostitutes have their lives handled. Similarly SOME PUAs have their lives handled. The difference I'm referring to is mindset. Do you have a growth mindset or a fixed mindset? If you are getting into pickup, you are FORCED to develop a growth mindset and take control of your life through ruthlessly examining, weeding out, and improving your own beliefs, actions, and habits. When you "monger," there is no effort required besides giving money over. The guy going to a monger might also have a growth mindset, but it's not required.

Notice the yellow column. These are the indicators of a "losing" mindset that thinks everything in life is pretty much fixed, that their social position, the women they get, the money they earn, etc, are ALL relatively unchangeable. They get mad at millionaires for "stepping on those below" and blame other people for their problems rather than take responsibility. They think because of X or Y that they will never get girls.

The PUA is FORCED to adopt the green growth mindset. This is one of the major benefits of PUA. As I've mentioned before, PUA is a discipline - a study requiring time, reflection, action, and change in the person who undertakes it. Mongering is a hobby or luxury activity, requiring no change at all to achieve.

Again, this isn't to say that all guys who go mongering are in a fixed mindset, or are worse off or anything. It simply is to point out the difference - one is learning a skill, the other is partaking in a leisure activity. Nothing inherently wrong with either, indeed they address different goals.

It appears to me (I could be wrong) that you end up misleading a lot of women who are looking for a long term or serious relationship about your intentions/availability...and thus end up disappointing them and perhaps hurting (emotionally) many of them. I could be wrong, but I imagine that when you are out doing a string of cold street approaches you don't tell each woman that she is just one of the many attractive women you plan to hit on that day. Don't you lead her to believe, by omission if not by outright deceit, that you are particularly interested in her specifically?

This point is a common one and it contains a very subtle form of sexism, so subtle it often goes unnoticed. Basically this falls into the argument of "women are easily deceived / cannot make decisions for themselves, and thus need to be cared after by men/society at large lest they get themselves into bad situations." In this case, your way of "taking care of women" is to level this criticism at PUAs. In return, I would offer that women are rarely unclear of the situation. Often times they will ask deliberately "Why did you nampa me?" Other girls literally tell you "Ganbatte" and then wait for your best game. Very rarely are girls deluded about why you talked to them or what you're doing (in fact, the honesty helps you!). On top of that, regardless of how men and women meet, it's a bit dishonest for EITHER party to assume from day 1 that this will be a long-term relationship at all. I can speak volumes from personal experience (and I'm sure everyone else can too) that women will run for the hills if you get too clingy and start talking about being her boyfriend when you still hardly know her. There is a subtle monogamy-reinforcing aspect to your criticism that assumes that a BF-GF relationship is all a women would ever want.

Additionally, you underestimate the degree to which women are actively pursuing casual sexual experiences (wasn't one of this site's very own lovely ladies mentioning this very fact earlier?). Nanpa is a service, filling a need for easy, simple, discreet [from the girls' social circle / friends / work] sex. The bored housewife and sex-starved student alike can rejoice in the benevolent nanpa-shi, dispensing high-quality sexual encounters where their classmates and husbands fail to provide! Nobody else needs to know so she won't be seen as a slut, and she can talk with a guy who is, if he's any good at it, better at conversation and understanding her than Taro two cubicles down at work, and probably a lot better in the sack as well. Interestingly, guys who are great, high-value, well-rounded guys are often shocked when girls dip out after one sexual encounter even though the guy wants to keep seeing her. If anything, you'd be surprised how much the tables are turned and it seems like the woman is "taking advantage" of the guy!

Regarding "interested in her specifically" yes, this is important, and if you are NOT interested in her specifically you should probably just let her go. PUAs (the good ones) are in the business of finding affinity, not finding a wet hole. Unfortunately, you often have to go through many wet holes to determine what your true affinity is. Such is dating life.

Finally, any PUA who has a modicum of empathy, skill, and sanity is always on the market for a special girl when she comes along. As a matter of fact, I have been dating one (yes, only one) girl for the past month and a half or so. I quite like her and we spend a ton of time together, but I never would have had the skill and ability to turn her into my girlfriend without building it from the ground up - with thousands of approaches, thousands of rejections, high hundreds of dates, and hundreds of lays. Put simply - I would have been a lesser version of myself and been unable to keep her if I hadn't been forced to adopt a growth mindset, aggressively target and change my life in all areas (health, career, finance, fashion, communication, confidence, empathy, etc).

In short your criticism (this last one I've quoted) has some major flaws:
1. It assumes women can't make their own decision / the best decision for themselves.
2. It assumes men are always the one seeking to have only one-night stands, and never women, and by corollary:
3. It assumes men are the ones who break off the relationship and hurt the feelings of the other, never the other way around.
4. It assumes a PUA would not choose a girl as his girlfriend if he really liked her.
5. It assumes a PUA doesn't like each girl he dates, for a specific reason.
6. It assumes that the interaction everyone is looking for is a long-term monogamous relationship

 

[just4fun]

Here we go again..........

 

[John Chavers]

mongering which is getting a good job and education/skills

You should read more and post less. @Wwanderer means punters pay because they've put their effort into other skills, skills that make them rich enough to afford young women without putting in a lot of effort.

Although comparing PUAirbags to fishermen is unfair (to the fishermen: they provide a valuable service). A better comparison would be to those traveling snake oil salesmen of the 19th century.

 

[Solong]

You should read more and post less. @Wwanderer means punters pay because they've put their effort into other skills, skills that make them rich enough to afford young women without putting in a lot of effort.

Although comparing PUAirbags to fishermen is unfair (to the fishermen: they provide a valuable service). A better comparison would be to those traveling snake oil salesmen of the 19th century.

View attachment 797

Now you are just doing crazy talk. Since when are all punters rich or just rolling in cash? Furthermore, a PUA can have just as much money or the same type of job.

The rest is just mud slinging. It's going to degenerate to that now and just launching insults back and forth (with random pictures from the Internet)?

 

[Sinapse]

You should read more and post less.

Not really sure where this is coming from.. We were having a perfectly civilized, intellectual debate and you feel the need to come in here and personally attack me?

skills that make them rich enough to afford young women without putting in a lot of effort.

Yup. Similarly, I have skills which now get me "young women without putting in a lot of effort". Difference being I don't have to spend money to do it, so I can spend that money for other things. I don't care how rich you are, 5man to have sex every single time you get horny adds up to quite a lot of money which could be spent in many other ways. Not to mention, going to a delivery health provider doesn't really give you much in the way of long-term meaningful connection.. so it would seem.

Successful monger:
Skills / career ---> Money ---> lots of money spent on getting sex

Successful PUA:
Skills / career ---> Money and women ----> lots of money left for whatever else I want besides sex

traveling snake oil salesmen

The difference being, anyone who tries pickup for a sustained period of time can easily confirm its efficacy, as opposed to snake oil, where anyone who tries it became aware of its fraudulence (and hence the salesmen would skip town after selling). The issue here comes when people who HAVENT tried it are dubious of its efficacy because it hurts their ego to imagine it might actually work (but.. but that would mean I could have fixed this all along?!?!?! Shock! PAIN!). On top of that, a "skill" that anyone can learn for free can't possibly be a fraud. Go learn it for yourself and see. No money required. 100% open source lifestyle change. Nobody is the master, gatekeeper, or charlatan. The only thing holding you back is you..

This is one thing I think people who criticize me for "advertising" are forgetting. Pickup is proven to be effective. There's not really any debate about this. Anyone can get better at meeting and talking to women. If you don't want to put the time into it, okay, that's your decision. A lot of people don't choose to put time into something like violin lessons or tae kwon do. The difference is that everyone agrees that violin or tae kwon do are teachable skills which are worthwhile for those who want to pursue them.

 

[Wwanderer]

This thread is getting tedious and repetitive and, I suspect, is losing most of its audience as a result, so I won't be responding too much longer...not to say that others shouldn't.

You are basically saying PUA is learning to fish for yourself (get girls on your own power) vs mongering which is getting a good job and education/skills. This argument is so flawed it's hard to take it seriously.. there's absolutely nothing about visiting a prostitute that would equate it with having any of those things you said - education, useful skills, work-ethic, or a good job.

I was just taking your "how to get a fish" metaphor and trying to run with it. You are extrapolating much more than I meant. Obviously an educated, successful, wealthy, etc guy can PUA too...just as he can also learn to fish for himself instead of visiting the fish monger. What I was actually saying is that going to the fish monger, and being able to afford to buy your fish there because you have a good income, is a more flexible strategy. You don't also have to learn to herd cattle and raise chickens and pigs to have a varied diet. And if you decide that you'd like to own a luxurious residence or a pleasure boat someday, you don't have to teach yourself all the many skills and crafts needed to build it yourself. That's all.

Perhaps another way of saying this is that if one put the time and effort into one's education, work and career that PUA requires (according to you, not obvious to me that it actually requires so much), you might be better off overall. This is the mirror image of the argument that a monger might end up better off spending his money for other purposes. Neither argument is without merit nor entirely correct, imo.

This point is a common one and it contains a very subtle form of sexism, so subtle it often goes unnoticed. Basically this falls into the argument of "women are easily deceived / cannot make decisions for themselves, and thus need to be cared after by men/society at large lest they get themselves into bad situations." In this case, your way of "taking care of women" is to level this criticism at PUAs.

Nah, I am not trying to "protect them" at all. If for no other reason, there is no way for me to do it. Nor do I believe that most of them need any protection. My point was different. Specifically you said this:

pretty much any PUA worth his salt has multiple women lining up and wishing he would ask them to be his girlfriend, or marry her. In fact, the main reason we have to cut girls off from our lives is that they don't get the "BFE" or perhaps more accurately, the commitment to monogamy that they want.

My point is that any way of meeting and dealing with women that *consistently* required me to "cut off" and potentially hurt a "line" of "multiple women" simply *because* they wanted more of a relationship from me than I could or ever had any intention of giving would be unacceptable to me for the reason I mentioned in that post...namely that I strongly prefer to be a good thing in the lives of the people with whom I interact significantly. If, as you claim, "pretty much any PUA worth his salt" is routinely disappointing "multiple women", it is not a game that appeals to me nor one that seems particularly humane/enlightened.

Interestingly, guys who are great, high-value, well-rounded guys are often shocked when girls dip out after one sexual encounter even though the guy wants to keep seeing her. If anything, you'd be surprised how much the tables are turned and it seems like the woman is "taking advantage" of the guy!

I do believe this. In fact it reinforces my impression from other sources, very much including some women who have told me about their experiences being picked up on the street. I don't think most PUAs would enjoy hearing what their "targets" think of them in many cases. What you are saying is that these women may also have multiple guys lined up that they have to "cut off from" their lives because they want a more significant relationship.

You seem to be saying that most of those who pick up and most of those who are picked up are basically using each other knowingly and willingly to find casual sex partners. That's fine I suppose, though not very appealing to me personally, but the serious downside (imo) is that some (a minority perhaps) are getting hurt in the process.

PUAs (the good ones) are in the business of finding affinity, not finding a wet hole. Unfortunately, you often have to go through many wet holes to determine what your true affinity is.

Finally, any PUA who has a modicum of empathy, skill, and sanity is always on the market for a special girl when she comes along.

<sigh>

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you as badly as you seem to misunderstand me consistently, but the above perhaps captures a key point. Imo, it is really bad for *both* her and you to regard any woman purely as "a wet hole", even if you have simply hired her to make hers available to you via p4p...and certainly not just because she isn't a/your "special girl". PUA, to the limited extent I understand it, does not require but does strongly encourage this "wet hole" vs "special girl" dichotomy via its emphasis on systematic/planned/repetitive dealings with large numbers of women and on concepts such as "success rate", "yield" and "batting averages" etc.

As a matter of fact, I have been dating one (yes, only one) girl for the past month and a half or so. I quite like her and we spend a ton of time together, but I never would have had the skill and ability to turn her into my girlfriend without building it from the ground up - with thousands of approaches, thousands of rejections, high hundreds of dates, and hundreds of lays. Put simply - I would have been a lesser version of myself and been unable to keep her if I hadn't been forced to adopt a growth mindset, aggressively target and change my life in all areas (health, career, finance, fashion, communication, confidence, empathy, etc).

Congratulations; I (seriously) hope that it turns out to be something great for both of you. And to be clear, I completely accept that PUA has been a big help to you in your life, in and out of the bedroom, but I wonder if you accept that it also has downsides/disadvantages and that it is not a good approach for everyone...and is probably not the only way that you personally could have achieved whatever success it has brought you.

Anyway, there are things to think about here.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

You should read more and post less. @Wwanderer means punters pay because they've put their effort into other skills, skills that make them rich enough to afford young women without putting in a lot of effort.

Yeah, that's it basically. And I would add that p4p interactions are fundamentally more honest than PUA as it has been described in many many long long TAG posts.

Although comparing PUAirbags to fishermen is unfair (to the fishermen: they provide a valuable service). A better comparison would be to those traveling snake oil salesmen of the 19th century.

View attachment 797

Tbh, I suspect that PUA is more effective than "snake oil", even if its advantages are greatly exaggerated, but to me at least, the promotion of PUA in general and especially that associated with *selling* PUA-related products and services/training, very much has the look and feel of snake oil huckstering. Perhaps it isn't really, but it definitely gives me (and many others I know) the gut instinct to put a hand on my wallet and go to a high level of scam alert.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Yeah, that's it basically. And I would add that p4p interactions are fundamentally more honest than PUA as it has been described in many many long long TAG posts.



Tbh, I suspect that PUA is more effective than "snake oil", even if its advantages are greatly exaggerated, but to me at least, the promotion of PUA in general and especially that associated with *selling* PUA-related products and services/training, very much has the look and feel of snake oil huckstering. Perhaps it isn't really, but it definitely gives me (and many others I know) the gut instinct to put a hand on my wallet and go to a high level of scam alert.

-Ww

There is nothing honest about paying a woman to pretend to like you. Dumping money isn't necessarily going to buy you love, loyalty, or an emotionally fulfilling relationship. And spending money you shouldn't, can even have you end up broke and bankrupt.

A PUA is at least seeking to improve himself and face the reality of his situation.

 

[Solong]

Tbh, I suspect that PUA is more effective than "snake oil", even if its advantages are greatly exaggerated, but to me at least, the promotion of PUA in general and especially that associated with *selling* PUA-related products and services/training, very much has the look and feel of snake oil huckstering. Perhaps it isn't really, but it definitely gives me (and many others I know) the gut instinct to put a hand on my wallet and go to a high level of scam alert.

-Ww

Oh, and PUA material can even be had for FREE. Paying for it is up to the person, and the cost is relatively inexpensive, compared to P4P. They pay for what they think is effective and are getting them results, like people pay professional trainers or to attend classes.

In P4P, a guy can blow 600 dollars for just a few hours of sex with a woman that cares nothing about him whatsoever, except that he hurries up and cum, then leaves. Not to mention thousands of dollars dumped a year, where the guy got nothing but sperm release and in some cases a free STD. Let's not even pretend P4P can't be outrageously expensive, and with nothing to show for the money spent.

 

[Wwanderer]

There is nothing honest about paying a woman to pretend to like you.

This suggests that you understand the real p4p world as poorly as you think I understand the PUA world.

While there are delusional mongers who believe that their p4p partners really like/love/enjoy them, the majority have no such illusions and understand the score very well indeed. These are not dumb or naive guys by and large. For most mongers, it is a form of (erotic) entertainment where you "suspend disbelief" (in rather precisely the same way you do in a movie or when you read a novel) to allow yourself to enjoy the experience. In a typical p4p encounter, the escort is the performer, and the monger is the audience. There are also more exceptions than most people might guess where the interaction "gets real" to some degree or another, but that is another story altogether.

There is already a ton on the internet and probably a lot on TAG about this topic, but if we are going to discuss it, I think it should have its own thread in a more appropriate forum.

Dumping money isn't necessarily going to buy you love, loyalty, or an emotionally fulfilling relationship. And spending money you shouldn't, can even have you end up broke and bankrupt.

and picking up from the subsequent post:

a guy can blow 600 dollars for just a few hours of sex with a woman that cares nothing about him
...
Let's not even pretend P4P can't be outrageously expensive, and with nothing to show for the money spent.

Bold font added for emphasis.

You frequently make arguments with this sort of structure, but I generally don't see your point...or at least don't see it as a very strong point. Of course things can go badly in p4p encounters and a good/satisfying outcome isn't necessarily going to happen. But who in the world would have claimed otherwise. Let's also "not pretend" that good and happy outcomes can't happen. Moreover one can say very similar sorts of things about PUA, surely you would not deny that various sorts of bad outcomes can't happen or that guys going the PUA route will necessarily have success. And in PUA too, you can end up with an STD. Etc. Indeed the PUA "literature", including much that you have posted on TAG, is full of cautions and tales about things that can go wrong. I'm sure that they can go well too. Obviously.

My point is that we all presumably know and agree that there is no guarantee of outcomes, good or bad, in p4p or np4p or in almost any other normal human endeavor...not in getting married or raising children or making a career or retiring or even crossing the freaking street. A semi-endless list of things can happen.

So, what's your point? You are saying things that are obviously true but from which no relevant (to the discussion) conclusion can be drawn as far as I can see.

If you can explain your thinking/logic in these cases when you point out that something is simply possible, I and perhaps others would be able to follow a lot of your posts much more clearly.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Adding briefly to my point at the end of my just previous post, I now notice that the very title of this thread is an example of this sort of meaningless "logic". Of course group dates and meeting her friends could be bad. So could not doing those things. So could getting out of bed in the morning. Etc.

I sincerely and seriously do not understand what in the world you are trying to say when you make such statements. But I guess that could be a good thing...or a bad thing.

-Ww

 

[just4fun]

There is nothing honest about paying a woman to pretend to like you. Dumping money isn't necessarily going to buy you love, loyalty, or an emotionally fulfilling relationship. And spending money you shouldn't, can even have you end up broke and bankrupt.

A PUA is at least seeking to improve himself and face the reality of his situation.

Ahhhhhhh a disagreement.......what's "dishonest" about paying someone to do something for you? If you pay someone to do something for you that you want......it's just a basic service....like cleaning your apartment. I personally don't see a difference. It's fulfilling a fantasy that both people are in agreement with.

 

[Solong]

Ahhhhhhh a disagreement.......what's "dishonest" about paying someone to do something for you? If you pay someone to do something for you that you want......it's just a basic service....like cleaning your apartment. I personally don't see a difference. It's fulfilling a fantasy that both people are in agreement with.

And when was it "dishonest" to learn how to get better at doing something? Trying to say PUA is dishonest, is like claiming exercising and losing weight is "dishonest".