Would you BBFS?

[Kulbutor]

It is waaaaaay less dangerous...even if you are a careful driver. "You can look it up", as they say.

-Ww

Stupid!! Totally stupid.

Usually, i dont want to lose my time with such stupid conversations, arguing with some guys getting a big head...

Travel is an obligation for a lot of people, with car, train, plane, i dont want to argue with you which is the safer way, you should give all some different statistics etc...just for the pleasure to argue.
But have sexual without protection is not mandatory, except for procreate, its just a personal choice, a selfish act, because the girl that you paid for emptied your balls ( thats just it no? ), will earn nothing to do that way, NOTHING, please dont say me it will be better for her climax too,hahaha.
You speak always from HIV, but there is so much other venereal diseases... wtf, did you really fuck as many as you claim? Did you ever just have some chamomilla or herpes? to daub your dick head with burning lotion each day for 6 months? And its nothing compare to what a girl must do for eradicate that from her vagina...And what about all that illegitimate children in the world? But you dont care of course, just your dick is the most important, right?
Ah, ok, 10 death/year in Japan for HIV (this stat is not serious though)? so applauds!! And how many "just" sicks? What about those they have the virus and just dont know?? And those they dont live in Japan?
Following your reasoning, how much deads for smoking cancer? Much more, you have the stats? Ok, so if i just smoke 14 cigarettes/day and dont drive... may i BBFS, is it ok? And for 30 cigarettes? always good? Or wait, and if i just drive for holidays, but never BBFS, is it ok for smoke? just 6 cigarettes? Promise no more! Please tell me Guru, what is the best and the worst...
You made a cynical hierarchy of the world's misfortunes, obviously you never has meet those pain, neither on you nor on your close friends.


I dont need to sign, because i dont pretend to be who im not.



Oh, Mike, you dont like this one? no, really?

 

[Jbagz]

How useful! Such generalization surely will help the Milleniums....

Eh, even us Gen Xers are getting old and cranky. Let me blow off a little steam, will ya?

 

[Jbagz]

Here is a link from what I consider to be a respected source. It is from Brown University's health and wellness website in the USA.

This is focused entirely on oral sex, not full sex. But as I think most of us know, unprotected oral sex is very common.

There is a link between oral sex and full sex, so digest this first (pun), and I'll be back with another post on the specific risks of unprotected full sex.

============

Can I get an STI from oral sex?

Yes, STIs can be transmitted during unprotected oral sex. Not using a condom, dental dam, or other barrier puts both partners at risk. This means that performing and receiving oral sex puts you at risk. Some STIs are more likely to be transmitted during oral sex than others, including:

Herpes
Herpes is transmitted by skin-to-skin contact with a developing or existing sore. The virus can be transmitted from mouth to genitals if the person giving oral sex has or is developing a cold sore. It can also be transmitted from genitals to mouth if the person receiving oral sex has or is developing a genital sore.

Gonorrhea
Gonorrhea is transmitted when bacteria are present in body fluids. A person giving oral sex can get a gonorrhea infection of the throat if their partner has gonorrhea.

HPV
HPV is transmitted through skin to skin contact and can be transmitted from the vagina, penis or anus to the mouth or vice versa. The risk for HPV-related oropharyngeal cancers (cancers of the throat, tonsils and base of the tongue) is believed to be linked to the number of oral sex partners that someone has had.

Syphilis
Syphilis can be transmitted through performing or receiving oral sex. The painless sores and other symptoms of this infection can be subtle, particularly in the mouth, so it is fairly common to be unaware of an infection.

HIV/AIDS
For the person receiving oral sex, there's little chance of contracting HIV, although it's difficult to pinpoint when HIV has been transmitted because people rarely engage in only one type of sexual activity. In the case of fellatio (oral sex on a man), the HIV virus theoretically could gain entry from the mouth to the opening on the tip of the penis, or through an open cut or lesion on the penis. If you receive oral sex, however, you mainly expose yourself to saliva, which has negligible concentrations of HIV.

For the cunnilingus (oral sex on a woman) recipient, the chance of HIV transmission is also low, although the entire vagina is a mucous membrane through which, theoretically, the virus can be transmitted. A woman receiving cunnilingus is more at risk of getting herpes or gonorrhea from her partner than HIV.

The risk of HIV infection is greater for the partner who performs oral sex. A person performing oral sex on a woman should avoid it during her period, for menstrual blood can carry the HIV virus. Research presented at the 7th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections in February of 2000 concluded that 8 of 122 cases in an HIV-transmission study were possibly attributable to performing oral sex on a man. Of these 8 infected people, some reported having had recent dental work or having cuts in their mouths, suggesting that HIV transmission by oral sex is associated with cuts, lesions, or irritation of the tissues in the mouth.

Other STIs that can be transmitted through oral sex, although less commonly, include:

Hepatitis B
Chlamydia
Chancroid

https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/health/services/promotion/sexual-health-stis/oral-sex-and-stis

 

[Kulbutor]

Indeed so, and not only that. Irrational fears of many things, not just STDs, are not only unpleasant in themselves to experience, but they drive all sorts of (irrational) behaviors that have many dire consequences...indeed, that take lives as well as ruin them. Believing things that aren't true has consequences.

-Ww

A lot of words for saying a nonsense...

Go back on earth, stop your drugs man

 

[Jbagz]

Okay, couldn't find a plain language source that broke things down like the Brown University site, but here are some useful risk numbers on HIV risks from the CDC in the US.

======

The risk of getting HIV varies widely depending on the type of exposure or behavior (such as sharing needles or having sex without a condom). Some exposures to HIV carry a much higher risk of transmission than other exposures. For some exposures, while transmission is biologically possible, the risk is so low that it is not possible to put a precise number on it. But risks do add up over time. Even relatively small risks can add up over time and lead to a high lifetime risk of getting HIV. In other words, there may be a relatively small chance of acquiring HIV when engaging in a risk behavior with an infected partner only once; but, if repeated many times, the overall likelihood of becoming infected after repeated exposures is actually much higher.

The table below lists the risk of transmission per 10,000 exposures for various types of exposures.

Estimated Per-Act Probability of Acquiring HIV from an Infected Source, by Exposure Act*
Type of Exposure Risk per 10,000 Exposures
Parenteral:

Blood Transfusion 9,250
Needle-Sharing During Injection Drug Use 63
Percutaneous (Needle-Stick) 23

Sexual:

Receptive Anal Intercourse 138
Insertive Anal Intercourse 11
Receptive Penile-Vaginal Intercourse 8
Insertive Penile-Vaginal Intercourse 4
Receptive Oral Intercourse Low
Insertive Oral Intercourse Low

Other^

Biting Negligible
Spitting Negligible
Throwing Body Fluids (Including Semen or Saliva) Negligible
Sharing Sex Toys Negligible

* Factors that may increase the risk of HIV transmission include sexually transmitted diseases, acute and late-stage HIV infection, and high viral load. Factors that may decrease the risk include condom use, male circumcision, antiretroviral treatment, and pre-exposure prophylaxis. None of these factors are accounted for in the estimates presented in the table.

^ HIV transmission through these exposure routes is technically possible but unlikely and not well documented.

Source

• Patel P, Borkowf CB, Brooks JT. Et al. Estimating per-act HIV transmission risk: a systematic review. AIDS. 2014. doi: 10.1097/QAD.0000000000000298.
• Pretty LA, Anderson GS, Sweet DJ. Human bites and the risk of human immunodeficiency virus transmission. Am J Forensic Med Pathol 1999;20(3):232-239.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html

 

[dreams]

Correct me i f I am wrong, but does this mean that if I have penetrative vaginal sex with an infected person, my risk is...4 out of 10000? Assuming 1 out of 1000 person I may have sex with, my risk falls down to... 4in 10000000 acts?
I am quit active, and have been active since 50 years, but not to this extent

If so, I feel ever safer that i thought...about getting HIV.

For the rest of your stats, we all know and agree that doing BB, FS or oral, increases the risk of STDs.. Like increasing your speed from. say 40 to 60 Km/h when driving increases your risk of an accident.

 

[Jbagz]

Correct me i f I am wrong, but does this mean that if I have penetrative vaginal sex with an infected person, my risk is...4 out of 10000? Assuming 1 out of 1000 person I may have sex with, my risk falls down to... 4in 10000000 acts?
I am quit active, and have been active since 50 years, but not to this extent

If so, I feel ever safer that i thought...about getting HIV.

For the rest of your stats, we all know and agree that doing BB, FS or oral, increases the risk of STDs.. Like increasing your speed from. say 40 to 60 Km/h when driving increases your risk of an accident.

No, did you read the introduction paragraph?

....But risks do add up over time. Even relatively small risks can add up over time and lead to a high lifetime risk of getting HIV. In other words, there may be a relatively small chance of acquiring HIV when engaging in a risk behavior with an infected partner only once; but, if repeated many times, the overall likelihood of becoming infected after repeated exposures is actually much higher.

 

[Jbagz]

Also if we are talking about a P4P environment, you'd have to calculate the risks that your provider exposes themselves to on a culmlative level.

That isn't feasible to do, but since we know that risk accumulates over time it is wise to presume that being a repeat customer who engages in unprotected sex with prostitutes, who inturn engage in unprotected sex...

Well, it seems like a high risk behavior to me.

Not to mention irresponsible.

 

[Kulbutor]

Agree 200% ( 200 km/h for the others )


Its just human respect, nothing else.

 

[Wwanderer]

Stupid!! Totally stupid.

I actually agree with some of what you say in this post, though definitely not all of it, as follows.

Travel is an obligation for a lot of people, with car, train, plane,
...
But have sexual without protection is not mandatory, except for procreate, its just a personal choice,

I agree with your basic point here. There are different reasons to tolerate different risks, and it can be misleading to compare them. For example, eating caries the risk of choking and food poisoning (both of which kill far more people than STDs btw), but refraining from eating is not practical obviously. But notice what @dreams said when he brought up the topic of traffic accident risks:

P4P is not necessarily more dangerous then driving on a motorway to go on holiday...

I suspect he mentioned driving to go on holiday specifically because it to is a voluntary personal choice made for pleasure, not a practical necessity.

a selfish act, because the girl that you paid for emptied your balls ( thats just it no? ), will earn nothing to do that way, NOTHING,

This is incorrect as can easily be seen from the fact that escorts and other sex workers are VERY OFTEN the ones to suggest/offer BB without the slightest hint that their customer wants BB; such events have been reported many times in TAG reviews and other discussions. If the woman gets "nothing" or even "NOTHING" out of it, why would she suggest it? Here're a couple of hints - She can often collect an extra fee for BB service, and it can help her attract and retain customers. Lots (perhaps most) escorts who generally insist on condoms with most of their customers make exceptions for a few of their best regulars, though they will rarely admit it in any public way. You can trust me on this.

You speak always from HIV, but there is so much other venereal diseases... wtf, did you really fuck as many as you claim? Did you ever just have some chamomilla or herpes? to daub your dick head with burning lotion each day for 6 months? And its nothing compare to what a girl must do for eradicate that from her vagina...And what about all that illegitimate children in the world? But you dont care of course, just your dick is the most important, right?

I agree that other STDs and unwanted pregnancies can be rational reasons to use condoms and have said so multiple times in posts in TAG's STD thread and elsewhere, but there are also other options for dealing with other STDs and to avoid pregnancies...as has also been mentioned in many other posts, including some (like @User#8628 's) in this thread, but the threat of HIV in heterosexual intercourse in Japan is so incredibly tiny that it is not a rational motivation for condom use. You are probably more likely to suffer a fatal accident on your way to the store to buy the condoms than you are to be saved from death by HIV via using them! (That last sentence is meant half humorously; I didn't actually try to estimate those risks.)

That said, I certainly don't care if guys want to use condoms to reduce their fear of HIV enough to enjoy sex; whatever floats your boat. Where I do object is when people fear-monger and try to change other people's behavior by scaring them or by shaming them as evil (as you try to do to me in the quote just above) based on wild exaggeration of the risks. I am fond of the truth, basically.

Speaking of which, yes, I have mongered a tremendous amount over many decades and enjoyed a lot of FS with many p4p partners, most of it covered but a fair fraction BB, and I have never caught a single STD. Moreover, I know quite a number of long time mongers (mostly in the US where HIV and other STD rates are much higher than in Japan) who can say the same or who have only caught minor and curable STDs one or twice in their mongering "careers". It is simply not as dangerous as it is depicted in the media and by public health officials.

Ah, ok, 10 death/year in Japan for HIV (this stat is not serious though)?

Yes, it is serious...but you have quoted what I said incorrectly; it was less than ten deaths per year in Japan of people who are neither homosexual men nor intravenous drug users. If you include those groups who suffer from a disproportionate rate of HIV infection, the number goes up to about 40 per year...still a ***tiny*** contribution to the overall mortality rate in Japan. The source is the World Health Organization (an arm of the UN, in case you didn't know) which gives the number of HIV deaths in Japan per year per 100,000 population as 0.03...making it among the lowest in the world (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/hiv-aids/by-country/). The HIV death rate in the US is more than 70 times higher, for example.

And those they dont live in Japan?

Here I agree. There are places in the world where the danger of contracting HIV is high enough to be a rational motivation to always use a condom and some where it would be a rational motivation to avoid sexual contact with locals entirely. Different places are different.

Following your reasoning, how much deads for smoking cancer? Much more, you have the stats? Ok, so if i just smoke 14 cigarettes/day and dont drive... may i BBFS, is it ok? And for 30 cigarettes? always good? Or wait, and if i just drive for holidays, but never BBFS, is it ok for smoke? just 6 cigarettes? Promise no more! Please tell me Guru, what is the best and the worst...

This is my basic point in a way. You can do what most people do and be ruled by fears of things that almost certainly won't happen because they sound so awful and scare you or disgust you, all the while ignoring far more serious threats that you could easily reduce with much less effort. You can play it smart or you can play it emotional and impulsive. I don't really care of course; to each his own. But when someone tries to convince others by spreading misinformation and paranoia, I'll speak up...what I am doing here.

You made a cynical hierarchy of the world's misfortunes, obviously you never has meet those pain, neither on you nor on your close friends.

I wish! Were that it were so. You could hardly be more wrong! I can't imagine anyone who knows me saying such a thing.

But the fact that there is so much pain and suffering in the world does/should not mean that life is all about avoiding it; the bad stuff will find you, one way or the other and sooner or later, but if you want to enjoy the pleasure and joy that life also offers, shedding irrational fears will be a BIG help.

Oh, Mike, you dont like this one? no, really?

Who is Mike???

-Ww

 

[statrosa]

Well when I came in to the country none of them were; it was not even legal to prescribe birth control until somewhere around 2000. So pretty much the choises were to become a fan of the rubber or a dad .

Same situation.

 

[Wwanderer]

Also if we are talking about a P4P environment, you'd have to calculate the risks that your provider exposes themselves to on a culmlative level.

Well, it seems like a high risk behavior to me.

But it isn't, not even on a cumulative basis, not in Japan. There are detailed recent statistics statistics available here:

http://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/country/documents/JPN_narrative_report_2016.pdf

Check the data out for yourself and make your own analysis.

Here is a/the key point from the report if you don't want to read a lot of graphs and numbers:

"Cases of female Japanese increased gradually up to 2001 and steadied at around 40 cases per year. Among non-Japanese cases female cases are slowly declining to less than 20 cases per year, "

Basically you could monger vigorously in Japan for your whole life, and you'd have to be quite unlucky to have even a single HIV infected partner. And even if you were that unlucky, as your own post on transmission rates above indicates, you'd have to be very unlucky all over again to catch it. At current female infection rates in Japan (which could change of course...so pays to keep up-to-date on the stats...but it would have to change A LOT), HIV is an extremely tiny cumulative risk for men who only have sex with women (especially if only Japanese women) and who don't use intravenous drugs.

You don't have to rely on intuition and what "seems" to be risky; we have numbers and arithmetic to tell us what actually is and isn't.

-Ww

 

[Jbagz]

But it isn't, not even on a cumulative basis, not in Japan.

You are mixing apples and pears.

Risk does accumulate over time. The stats I linked deal with risk estimates of transmitting the disease for each type of activity. The scale the CDC used in its risk estimate is 1/10000, per encounter.

If you engage in a risk behavior more than once you accumulating risk each time you do it.

There isn't anything magical about Japan that nullifies this.

You are citing stats that deal with reported infection cases. While relevant to the discussion in general, they aren't that relevant to the concept of cumulative risk that you are trying to throw cold water on.

There are detailed recent statistics statistics available here:

http://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/country/documents/JPN_narrative_report_2016.pdf

Check the data out for yourself and make your own analysis.

Here is a/the key point from the report if you don't want to read a lot of graphs and numbers:

"Cases of female Japanese increased gradually up to 2001 and steadied at around 40 cases per year. Among non-Japanese cases female cases are slowly declining to less than 20 cases per year, "

Basically you could monger vigorously in Japan for your whole life, and you'd have to be quite unlucky to have even a single HIV infected partner. And even if you were that unlucky, as your own post on transmission rates above indicates, you'd have to be very unlucky all over again to catch it. At current female infection rates in Japan (which could change of course...so pays to keep up-to-date on the stats...but it would have to change A LOT), HIV is an extremely tiny cumulative risk for men who only have sex with women (especially if only Japanese women) and who don't use intravenous drugs.

You don't have to rely on intuition and what "seems" to be risky; we have numbers and arithmetic to tell us what actually is and isn't.

-Ww

LOL

Wow!

You really want to tamp down any impression that banging sex workers is risky, don't you? Face it pal, you are in a higher risk category than someone who doesn't use escorts or go to brothels.

But this last little bit irritates me the most.

You don't have to rely on intuition and what "seems" to be risky; we have numbers and arithmetic to tell us what actually is and isn't.

-Ww

It irritates me because you ignored the context of my post. There are variables in calculating risk, some of them are unknown variables. Hence my use of the word "seems".

What you just did was use rhetoric to advance your apparent agenda of white knighting sex workers. We all know that you're their protector, but damn!

Are you actually try to discourage condom use?

 

[User#8628]

HPV
HPV is transmitted through skin to skin contact and can be transmitted from the vagina, penis or anus to the mouth or vice versa. The risk for HPV-related oropharyngeal cancers (cancers of the throat, tonsils and base of the tongue) is believed to be linked to the number of oral sex partners that someone has ha

I heard that the risk at throatcancer gets much bigger if you do a lot of deepthroat, which makes me hesistant to deepthroat.
Anyone knows if this is an actual difference (between bbj and bbdeepthroat) or just me being paranoid about something i once read somewhere.
I generally like the Japanese style blowjobs better and i prefer a strong sucking technique over deepthroat but if there is no real difference i could try working on my tactics.

 

[User#8628]

You really want to tamp down any impression that banging sex workers is risky, don't you? Face it pal, you are in a higher risk category than someone who doesn't use escorts or go to brothels.

Sexworkers are generally safer than people who hook up in clubs a lot.
Many of us get tested regulary and use better protection.

 

[User#8628]

Ironic that the guys who tell everyone to not worry too much are the oldest... Figures that they have years of experience and never caught anything serious.

 

[Jbagz]

Sexworkers are generally safer than people who hook up in clubs a lot.
Many of us get tested regulary and use better protection.

In general, I don't dispute that statement.

However being the pragmatic type person that I am, I readily admit that I can't distinguish between a safe practitioner and one who is risky.

So, I use condoms.

 

[User#8628]

In general, I don't dispute that statement.

However being the pragmatic type person that I am, I readily admit that I can't distinguish between a safe practitioner and one who is risky.

So, I use condoms.

Yes, and obviously if a sex worker offers you bareback there is a good chance she offers it to many guys.

 

[Jbagz]

Yes, and obviously if a sex worker offers you bareback there is a good chance she offers it to many guys.

Oh yes!

I am good example of a high risk person. Someone that should give @Wwanderer a reason to advocate condom usage.

I am bi, I'm sexuallly active in social as well as P4P circles. I live in Thailand and travel to Japan and participate in both circles there too.

I am well dressed, educated, polite, charming and charismatic. If you met me in person, you'd think that Im gentle and not the least bit wild.

I'd never tell you that last week I was in a cheap hotel room banging two Thai ladyboys. One of which was begging me to cum in her ass two nights before when we were going at as a duo.

Oh, I used a condom, but what if I didn't? There was a moment when I thought, what the hell, it is difficult to orgasm in this condom. I was tempted and it wouldn't have taken a lot of mental gymnastics to pull the condom off and go at her bareback.

I've had unprotected anal sex with transgenders before, but I'd never tell you that in person unless you really got to know me.

I'll be hoping on a plane and coming to Japan soon. If I get bored of banging the cute cashier at Lawson's, I might hit a a Deri Heru. The next night I might be in Shinjuku Ni Chome bar hopping and end up in bed with a newhalf and a couple of dudes.

What if I want a palate cleanser and start looking for topshelf female escorts?

Sorry for dragging out the soapbox on you Alice, but I'm still chaffing at Wwanderer's earlier post.

Risk accumulates over time and one never knows where another person has been and what they have been doing.

 

[Jbagz]

I heard that the risk at throatcancer gets much bigger if you do a lot of deepthroat, which makes me hesistant to deepthroat.
Anyone knows if this is an actual difference (between bbj and bbdeepthroat) or just me being paranoid about something i once read somewhere.

If you'll notice the way the Brown University segment on HPV is worded, they are referring to an untested/unconfirmed hypothesis on an increased throat cancer rate among those with a history of performing oral sex on multiple partners.

I'm unsure if they even tried to differentiate between shallow oral sex and deep throating.

I generally like the Japanese style blowjobs better and i prefer a strong sucking technique over deepthroat but if there is no real difference i could try working on my tactics.

Deep throating is more of a visual sensation for me. There is very little stimulation when someone goes down on my cock the whole way, but being able to deepthroat does enhance the blowjob.

Because it looks sexy as hell, but you are right, the nerve endings are at the tip of the penis and strong suction there is what brings the orgasm faster.

When I learned how to suppress my gag reflex, it was almost like learning how to hit homeruns in little league.

 

[TAG Manager]

Guys & Gals - this thread has veered into the domain of the STD thread that already exists.

I understand how we got here, but the title of this discussion lost its value you sometime ago.

 

[Jbagz]

Guys & Gals - this thread has veered into the domain of the STD thread that already exists.

I understand how we got here, but the title of this discussion lost its value you sometime ago.

A full 21.9 percent of us can't even be trusted to wear condoms, and you want us to stay on topic in a thread?

 

[MikeH]

So, I use condoms.

Me too. To be honest I don't even remember the last time I did BBFS.

Maybe even more than getting an STD I'm afraid without condoms there would be a kid somewhere in SE Asia growing up without a dad.

This is really not a factor here in Japan but I still use condoms as I do have multiple partners and I have no idea what they might have caught; don't want to be that one who spreads it over no matter that I see it as a low risk situation.

But it seems that in this discussion some people are arguing p4p being dangerous even with protection. With that frame of mind how do you rationalise living in Japan where just typhoons alone kill way more people than all STDs combined?

 

[Jbagz]

But it seems that in this discussion some people are arguing p4p being dangerous even with protection. With that frame of mind how do you rationalise living in Japan where just typhoons alone kill way more people than all STDs combined?

I'm not in that camp calling it dangerous, but P4P is at a higher risk because of there is a higher number of people involved.

Risk accumulates over time, and the notion that Japan is somehow isolated is preposterous to me. Tokyo is an international city.

People cuming and going all over the world.

An Aomori farm girl could easily be linked to a sexual partner that has fucked someone from a highly exposed population on another continent.

A sex worker in Tokyo is most probably linked to partners from each continent on the planet.

Condom usage is more than a reasonable precaution, it is a social responsibility if you ask me.

The fact that more people die in typhoons or swimming pools isn't relevant.

 

[Exnocomment]

So I'll follow up on @TAG Manager's efforts to pull this thread back from the abyss and answer the original question that was voted on in the polls.

I answered "No" as I don't BBFS with P4P and generally always use protection when with a civilian. I have done it without protection before in a somewhat stable relationship where the ground rules were clear.

I suppose the above suggests that I'm relatively "low risk" as I'm also heterosexual and don't typically engage in anal. That said, just because a partner "says" they only BBFS with you doesn't mean they aren't lying and who knows, one day, I like many others might make a silly mistake.. So the underlying statistics around all STI/STDs are somewhat comforting as a backup! As an aside, based on risk statistics, I will admit to travelling a lot for work and am quite surprised I haven't been in more taxi/car accidents considering how crazy some of them drive in certain parts of the world..