Would you BBFS?

[Wwanderer]

Risk does accumulate over time. The stats I linked deal with risk estimates of transmitting the disease for each type of activity. The scale the CDC used in its risk estimate is 1/10000, per encounter.

If you engage in a risk behavior more than once you accumulating risk each time you do it.

I did not intend to dispute that risk accumulates; of course it does. What I did and do dispute is that even with this accumulation that BBFS is, as you asserted, "high risk behavior" in Japan. The data at the links I posted show that even with any remotely plausible behavior, it remains exceedingly low risk behavior...much much less risky than many other dangers we tolerate without blinking an eye. Run the numbers, including accumulation, yourself if you don't believe me.

There isn't anything magical about Japan that nullifies this.

No magic at all, just that very very few women have HIV in Japan.

Face it pal, you are in a higher risk category than someone who doesn't use escorts or go to brothels.

Indeed that is true, but the mortal risks I run using escorts and going to brothels are not associated with HIV (or other STDs) but with other things that can go wrong. For example, I have had a razor held to my throat, the unfriendly end of small firearms pointed at me, and threats of a beating directed at me (none of this in Japan, of course) while mongering.

There are variables in calculating risk, some of them are unknown variables. Hence my use of the word "seems".

Fair enough. There are indeed unknown variables that can change (in either direction) the risks you would naively calculate from infection rates etc. But while we don't know them exactly, one can make plausible estimates and show that the dangers remain small.

However and more importantly, one doesn't need to rely on the calculation. Instead you can simply look at the bottom line of the number of deaths caused by HIV per year and the number of new cases per year to see that all of those unknown factors do not make it a major risk. If it were, more people would be getting it and more people would be dying from it...as they are in some countries.

What you just did was use rhetoric to advance your apparent agenda of white knighting sex workers. We all know that you're their protector, but damn!

Are you actually try to discourage condom use?

I totally don't follow you here. Sex workers in general prefer their customers to use condoms and to be unwilling to do BBFS...just makes their lives a bit safer and their work a bit easier. In what way am I protecting them???

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

IThe fact that more people die in typhoons or swimming pools isn't relevant.

Risks not only accumulate; they are also relative. I knew a woman, a sex worker actually, who lost well over 10 million yen (a large fraction of her total worth at the time) to a con man because she failed to do due diligence to verify his reliability and the reality of the "investments" he convinced her to make. However, she routinely went to great trouble and effort to make sure that she was not paying more than necessary for everyday purchases; she'd spend an hour online researching the best deal on some 2000 yen purchase. I hope I don't need to explain the relevance of this true story.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Tokyo is an international city.

People cuming and going all over the world.

An Aomori farm girl could easily be linked to a sexual partner that has fucked someone from a highly exposed population on another continent.

A sex worker in Tokyo is most probably linked to partners from each continent on the planet.

That is all perfectly true, but the HIV new case and death rate stats at the links I posted above show that these potential transmission routes are not (so far) bringing a significant number of cases into Japan. Very likely there is not even one Aomori farm girl infected with HIV given the tiny number of women in the whole country who are infected with HIV.

I do not mean to be antagonistic here. It seems to me that you understand the technicalities, mechanisms and sources of uncertainty in evaluating the risks but are ignoring the actual numbers which show the problem to be an extremely minor one (in Japan and so far).

There are many bad things that *could* happen and *may* happen someday, but in most cases we can tell if they *are* happening now. If you want to protect yourself from seriously unpleasant diseases, you can reduce your chances of getting stomach cancer simply by eating less bottom dwelling shell fish (which are often contaminated by heavy metal pollution that causes such cancers). Lots of people get those cancers in Japan and die quite horrible deaths; I have known a few myself. You wouldn't have to stop eating such shell fish entirely; cutting down by, say, 10% probably would do far more for your health prospects than completely eliminating all risk of HIV, for example.

-Ww

 

[Kulbutor]

That is all perfectly true, but the HIV new case and death rate stats at the links I posted above show that these potential transmission routes are not (so far) bringing a significant number of cases into Japan. Very likely there is not even one Aomori farm girl infected with HIV given the tiny number of women in the whole country who are infected with HIV.

I do not mean to be antagonistic here. It seems to me that you understand the technicalities, mechanisms and sources of uncertainty in evaluating the risks but are ignoring the actual numbers which show the problem to be an extremely minor one (in Japan and so far).

There are many bad things that *could* happen and *may* happen someday, but in most cases we can tell if they *are* happening now. If you want to protect yourself from seriously unpleasant diseases, you can reduce your chances of getting stomach cancer simply by eating less bottom dwelling shell fish (which are often contaminated by heavy metal pollution that causes such cancers). Lots of people get those cancers in Japan and die quite horrible deaths; I have known a few myself. You wouldn't have to stop eating such shell fish entirely; cutting down by, say, 10% probably would do far more for your health prospects than completely eliminating all risk of HIV, for example.

-Ww

Thats why i was talking when i said " what about those they dont live in japan", i mentioned the travellers, Ww did not understand.

 

[Kulbutor]

But it isn't, not even on a cumulative basis, not in Japan. There are detailed recent statistics statistics available here:

http://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/country/documents/JPN_narrative_report_2016.pdf

Check the data out for yourself and make your own analysis.

Here is a/the key point from the report if you don't want to read a lot of graphs and numbers:

"Cases of female Japanese increased gradually up to 2001 and steadied at around 40 cases per year. Among non-Japanese cases female cases are slowly declining to less than 20 cases per year, "

Basically you could monger vigorously in Japan for your whole life, and you'd have to be quite unlucky to have even a single HIV infected partner. And even if you were that unlucky, as your own post on transmission rates above indicates, you'd have to be very unlucky all over again to catch it. At current female infection rates in Japan (which could change of course...so pays to keep up-to-date on the stats...but it would have to change A LOT), HIV is an extremely tiny cumulative risk for men who only have sex with women (especially if only Japanese women) and who don't use intravenous drugs.

You don't have to rely on intuition and what "seems" to be risky; we have numbers and arithmetic to tell us what actually is and isn't.

-Ww

So you believe ALL what you read here and there man? You dont remember all the circus, stats, measures etc.. with Fukushima?
Let me tell you that : you DONT know how many people have some STD's in Japan,
me too, so thats why i protect me (not for oral if its in the girl services, i assume that)... and others.

 

[Kulbutor]

Risks not only accumulate; they are also relative. I knew a woman, a sex worker actually, who lost well over 10 million yen (a large fraction of her total worth at the time) to a con man because she failed to do due diligence to verify his reliability and the reality of the "investments" he convinced her to make. However, she routinely went to great trouble and effort to make sure that she was not paying more than necessary for everyday purchases; she'd spend an hour online researching the best deal on some 2000 yen purchase. I hope I don't need to explain the relevance of this true story.

-Ww

No, i dont understand...the relevance, the connection...

Yeah of course you make the apology of BBFS, dont tell us the contrary...

Your problem man is very simple, you dont have any doubts never, you know everything, this is what i call the wikipedia syndrom...Take it easy, you are many.

Try to think about this simple sentence : "You dont know the quarter from that you are convinced to know", its can apply for everything in the life

Be modest!

 

[Kulbutor]

Ironic that the guys who tell everyone to not worry too much are the oldest... Figures that they have years of experience and never caught anything serious.

Yeah, its strange.

 

[Kulbutor]

This is incorrect as can easily be seen from the fact that escorts and other sex workers are VERY OFTEN the ones to suggest/offer BB without the slightest hint that their customer wants BB; If the woman gets "nothing" or even "NOTHING" out of it, why would she suggest it?


-Ww

You are serious? Im a punter for many years, and NEVER a girl suggested me that ( BBFS)

But, if you say the true, tell me what she has to earn please, because i confess that i dont understand at all, and i would be happy to learn something today, thanks.

 

[Kulbutor]

Very similar to the irrational fear of soft drugs.

There is not "soft" drugs

and not "hard" though...

just my 2 cents.

 

[dreams]

You are serious? Im a punter for many years, and NEVER a girl suggested me that ( BBFS)

.

Never heard of the "AO" clubs in Germany?

 

[Jbagz]

I do not mean to be antagonistic here. It seems to me that you understand the technicalities, mechanisms and sources of uncertainty in evaluating the risks but are ignoring the actual numbers which show the problem to be an extremely minor one (in Japan and so far).


-Ww

It would be okay if you were being antagonistic. I was when I made that crack about you being the White Knight of the ladies who post here.

I've been laughing about that ever since someone brought it up a couple of weeks ago. Let me address that first, and then I'll get back to what I think is the root of our disconnect on the real topic.

First of all, you are one of my favorite posters here. I've been reading your posts long before I became an active member on this forum. But I have the impression that you dote over the ladies that post here.

Nothing at all wrong with that. I would probably too if I had interactions with them like you apparently do.

For what ever reason that white knight crack struck my funny bone, and I was dying to toss it at you again.

My apologies, please forgive me, a character flaw of mine perhaps.

That said, I couldn't help but wonder if you were downplaying the risks of P4P sex toward that end. I was actually a bit chaffed at this, because it sounded like you were advocating not using condoms.

However, I went back a read your posts in this thread again and I don't think that is the case. I don't think, but I'm not sure.

I will accuse you of doing mental gymnastics with comparisons to other types of risks to rationalize what you expose yourself to in P4P circles.

Is fucking a prostitute bareback the same as tap dancing on the freeway? No, but it certainly is an at risk behavior, not to mention socially irresponsible.

One reason why I think we are in disagreement is because we haven't defined a vocabulary to sufficiently discuss it.

When I say that a sex worker is in a high risk category for contracting STIs, it apparently means something else to you since you are factoring in crap like eating shellfish and traffic accidents.

I say that doesn't belong in this discussion.

Oh, and sorry I didn't use the quote function better. I'm in a bit of a rush right now.

 

[dreams]

Guys & Gals - this thread has veered into the domain of the STD thread that already exists.

I understand how we got here, but the title of this discussion lost its value you sometime ago.

Yes indeed.
This is TAG, which professes to inform about P4P in Japan. In this respect, all the infos, stats on HIV in Japan provided by Wv are useful. And have not been challenged seriously.
Remember the beginning of this discussion was on HIV risks. Everyone agrees that BBFS increase the risk of catching STDs. Like BBBJ does.
From then on, the discussion became personal, with some guys imposing their own views of what is acceptable and what is not, with some unpleasant adjectives thrown in.

For me, sex, whatever that means, between two consenting adults is fine, and I don't expect anyone in a forum like this to teach me what is right or what is wrong.

For the record, I have been working in the 80s in the HIV research and medical field, and contributed to the development, of HIV therapy since . Actually that is why I came to Japan in the 80-90s for several scientifc/medical meetings. I can't say more for privacy reasons. I do know a bit about HIV history, evolution treatment, epidemiology... And all the nonsense spread here , (but not only here), is what makes me angry.

Arrogant people who believe that they know what is best for others and feed them untrue facts is criminal. You may think that Wv ( and me...) are ourselves arrogant in saying that, but we only provide facts , so that each responsible individual can make his/her own informed choice. In my early years, it was normal for physicians to consider their patients as ignorant helpless things, and to not involve them in any ways in decisions rconcerning to their own health and treatment. This has obviously changed ( for the best) and nowadays one needs to treat each individual as an intelligent person able to take his/her decision, but for that to happen they need not be fed with wrong info from peoole with an other agenda.
As a matter of fact most people, here and elsewhere, don't do much BBFS, neither did/do I. Because I make my own risk analysis based on true facts. Which is why many ( maybe some of you , our critics) do BBBJ...Which means that you accept the risk of catching STds... The difference is that some put the "red line" between BBBJ and BBFS, while other put in elsewhere..

Let out beloved and trustful moderators decide if, and where this discussion should continue...

 

[TAG Manager]

Let out beloved and trustful moderators decide if, and where this discussion should continue...

Probably will clean this up later. Don't be surprised if things are trimmed. (read: moved, not deleted)

 

[dreams]

Probably will clean this up later. Don't be surprised if things are trimmed. (read: moved, not deleted)

As I said, full trust in our TAG managers to keep this forum what it is, i.e useful, friendly and fun....

 

[Kulbutor]

I was actually a bit chaffed at this, because it sounded like you were advocating not using condoms.

Thats what he did...

 

[Kulbutor]

Probably will clean this up later. Don't be surprised if things are trimmed. (read: moved, not deleted)

Good idea! i think on this thread, the harm prevention is something very important for everyone, if not a duty...

I Have seen and read a lot of things in my life, but i was really shocked by certain mentality here, sorry to confess that but its the true.

 

[Kulbutor]

For me, sex, whatever that means, between two consenting adults is fine, and I don't expect anyone in a forum like this to teach me what is right or what is wrong.

Yeah, the individual freedom of course...And the collective interest??

Just dont say there is no risks to act that, its the same habit that drive your car on a freeway etc... first because its not exact, i never had an accident for my example and i did that on many continents, but mostly because there is nothing to compare, its 2 totally different activities...

May be you should just say something like :

"Its more risky to do BBFS, because the STD's you can contract, me i prefer to do that way for any reasons, but i should not recommend everyone to imitate me"... something like that!
You see what i mean? Like in the show tv where you can see some stuntmen performances, and the guy say at the end "dont do the same at home"...

Its not a "whisky private saloon" or an "elephant safari country club" here, its a public thread, sorry to tell you that, its very serious what you advocated, i hope you understand that, even more from someone who worked in the medical profession.

ps: I will not discuss with you, about the "consenting" (or "needing" )that bring certain women to have sex for money...Sure we will not agree on that also.

 

[Wwanderer]

It would be okay if you were being antagonistic. I was when I made that crack about you being the White Knight of the ladies who post here.

For what ever reason that white knight crack struck my funny bone, and I was dying to toss it at you again.

My apologies, please forgive me, a character flaw of mine perhaps.

No worries and no apology needed. It is almost impossible to offend me with words posted on the internet., and tbh, the White Knight image makes me laugh too. I would look REALLY funny wearing armor, riding a white horse and wielding a sword or lance!!

it sounded like you were advocating not using condoms.

However, I went back a read your posts in this thread again and I don't think that is the case. I don't think, but I'm not sure.

You are quite correct. I am not arguing against the use of condoms, not at all. As you correctly read in the implications of my posts in this thread and as I have said repeatedly in the permanent STD thread, there are many valid reasons for using condoms including reducing the risk of catching various STDs, including AIDS. I see it as a personal decision that depends on the details of the situation (location included) and the relationship in question as well as a person's psychological risk tolerance etc. It also depends on how much condoms reduce a person's sexual pleasure; they bother some people not much at all but for others it takes away most of the experience...again a personal issue. I do argue against people pushing others to use condoms by promoting an extremely exaggerated and paranoid/hysterical misunderstanding of the threat of HIV infections. Imo, doing so is ignorant at best and wrong/unethical at worst.

I will accuse you of doing mental gymnastics with comparisons to other types of risks to rationalize what you expose yourself to in P4P circles.

Is fucking a prostitute bareback the same as tap dancing on the freeway? No, but it certainly is an at risk behavior, not to mention socially irresponsible.

One reason why I think we are in disagreement is because we haven't defined a vocabulary to sufficiently discuss it.

When I say that a sex worker is in a high risk category for contracting STIs, it apparently means something else to you since you are factoring in crap like eating shellfish and traffic accidents.

I say that doesn't belong in this discussion.

Here's a substantive point which I should probably try to be clearer. In one sense I agree with you; the risks I take by flying or swimming or eating shell fish or whatever have no effect, either way on the risks of having BBFS. In that sense they are irrelevant. However, I find them relevant in a different sense, namely the one that I illustrated with the story about the woman who lost most of her life savings to a con man due to inattention while using huge amounts of her time and energy to penny pinch on minor expenses. In other words, the comparison of the tiny HIV threat to other major ones we pretty much ignore in our daily lives makes the irrationality more vivid and obvious. Does that make it clearer why I keep making these comparisons?

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

First of all, you are one of my favorite posters here. I've been reading your posts long before I became an active member on this forum.

And oh, thanks for the kind words, and I have appreciated/enjoyed your posts since you became active. Please continue to contribute!

But I have the impression that you dote over the ladies that post here.

Guilty as charged...and on many others who do not post here for that matter, but that fact is not at all my motive for the posts I've made in this thread, nor do I see how that would make sense. But in any case, my motives (conscious or unconscious, selfish or beneficent) do not invalidate (or validate) the arguments I have posted. The logic, numbers and arithmetic stand on their own, make sense or don't, no matter who makes them or why.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

all the infos, stats on HIV in Japan provided by Wv are useful. And have not been challenged seriously.

From then on, the discussion became personal, with some guys imposing their own views of what is acceptable and what is not, with some unpleasant adjectives thrown in.

For me, sex, whatever that means, between two consenting adults is fine, and I don't expect anyone in a forum like this to teach me what is right or what is wrong.

I do know a bit about HIV history, evolution treatment, epidemiology... And all the nonsense spread here , (but not only here), is what makes me angry.

Arrogant people who believe that they know what is best for others and feed them untrue facts is criminal. You may think that Wv ( and me...) are ourselves arrogant in saying that, but we only provide facts , so that each responsible individual can make his/her own informed choice.

As a matter of fact most people, here and elsewhere, don't do much BBFS, neither did/do I. Because I make my own risk analysis based on true facts. Which is why many ( maybe some of you , our critics) do BBBJ...Which means that you accept the risk of catching STds... The difference is that some put the "red line" between BBBJ and BBFS, while other put it elsewhere..

I agree with pretty much every work in the above quoted post, especially those I have made bold. I wish I could like it more than once.

The only exceptions: I might not go quite as far as "criminal", not in a literal sense anyway, and most importantly, it is "Ww", not "Wv"!!

-Ww

 

[Kulbutor]

So dont say there is no more risks than drive your car. on a freeway...first because i never had an accident for my example and in did it on many continents, and mostly because there is nothing to compare, its 2 totally different activities...

May be you should just say something like :

Its more risky to do BBFS, because the STD's you can contract, me i prefer to do that way for any reasons, but i should not recommend everyone to imitate me... something like that, you see what i mean? Like in the show tv where you can see some stuntmen performances, and the guy say at the end "dont do the same at home"...

Its not a "whisky private club" here, its a public thread, sorry to tell you that, its very serious what you advocated, i hope you understand that, even more for someone who worked in the medical profession.

I agree with pretty much every work in the above quoted post, especially those I have made bold. I wish I could like it more than once.

The only exceptions: I might not go quite as far as "criminal", not in a literal sense anyway, and most importantly, it is "Ww", not "Wv"!!

-Ww

You speak about dispropportionate fears for ceratin here, its so stupid, me for example, i have not, i gone from more more far that you will never be... i saw the hell's doors, but its another story.

I dont want to argue with you anymore, you dont interest me since you insulted me "what a silliness", english is not my native language, and to practice the rhetoric seems to be a pleasure for you, may be one of the last, but could you just answer my last question:

Did you performed some blood test between having BBFS with 2 different girls ?

 

[Wwanderer]

@stanlo95 - Please forgive me for disregarding and not answering most of your posts. All of the ones where you simply dismiss things I've said or express shock and outrage that I am expressing a dissenting opinion don't really interest me. I pretty much have nothing to say about a post that doesn't make any argument or give any evidence...posts like this one, for example:

A lot of words for saying a nonsense...

Go back on earth, stop your drugs man

You have a bunch of them.

However, I scanned through your posts and found a few points to whichI can reply and say something substantive. Here they are:

So you believe ALL what you read here and there man? You dont remember all the circus, stats, measures etc.. with Fukushima?

The Fukushima incident is a great example of how unwarranted fears and hysteria can be harmful. See

http://nyti.ms/1V6uPN4

and

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/...adiation-did-more-damage-than-radi#.tl9J7jPm1

For those who don''t want to read the articles, there was never any significant danger IN TOKYO from radioactive material released at Fukushima, but the fear associated with the government and media panic actually killed well over a 1000 people via extreme stress and harmed many others. Moreover, precious resources (notably fuel and transport/trucks) needed to help the victims of the tsunami in Tohoku were squandered on protecting Tokyo from a nonexistent threat. This is as established by studies (years after the actual events) conducted by outside (foreign) experts not working for the nuclear industry or the Japanese government and published in leading international (peer-reviewed) scientific journals. (If anyone wishes to discuss this topic further, we should start a separate thread, obviously.)

Let me tell you that : you DONT know how many people have some STD's in Japan.

Yes, there are some STDs for which it is hard to get reliable information about the infection rates, but HIV/AIDS is not one of them. There are a couple of reasons. One is that there are specific laws and reporting requirements for HIV infections and AIDS cases (due to the fears of worldwide epidemic back in the '80s and '90s) that are not in place for most STDs. But more importantly and reliably, a certain (fairly well known) fraction of HIV infections quickly (within a year) turn into full blown AIDS. These cases are pretty much impossible to miss. The person is either getting regular doses of expensive "cocktails" of specialized antibiotics (that are easily traced and noted), or they die rather quickly in an awful way that is not going to be missed by doctors or coroners. So, if the actual rate of infection in Japan were much higher than reported in the sources I cited, it would be immediately apparent due to a much higher than implied number of active AIDS cases and deaths.

You are serious? Im a punter for many years, and NEVER a girl suggested me that ( BBFS)

-Yes, it has happened to me quite a few times. It happens to many mongers I know regularly. And a lot of guys have posted about it happening to them on TAG. I could speculate on why it has not happened to you, but it might insult you, so I won't.

But, if you say the true, tell me what she has to earn please, because i confess that i dont understand at all, and i would be happy to learn something today, thanks.

I already answered this in a previous post, but here's the short version: BBFS offers can allow an escort to negotiate/get a higher fee, and it can let her retain customers she particularly values against the competition...generous regulars for example or guys who treat her particularly well.

-Ww

 

[Exnocomment]

I already answered this in a previous post, but here's the short version: BBFS offers can allow an escort to negotiate/get a higher fee, and it can let her retain customers she particularly values against the competition...generous regulars for example or guys who treat her particularly well.

-Ww

I have to admit, while likely a "fact of life" that us as hobbyists/mongers have to normally manage, I do have to say the suggested prevalence in the above statement, makes me somewhat uncomfortable.

Setting aside HIV as an extra particularly rare case, it is this sort of hinted at cavalier attitude that causes, when outbreaks emerge, to spread rapidly through a population. There was an article last year about the spread of Syphillis in young females in Japan, a tiny fraction by standards in other countries, but doubling year on year on year.

I will say that while none of us are perfect and I make as many foolish mistakes as the next guy.. I'm uncomfortable with the thought pattern that you suggested as leading to those kinds of judgements..

While I agree with Ww on a great many matters, I will caution that arguing that condom use is purely a personal decision implies a fallacy - do we as a community exist? Are reviews and a review board meaningful? If so then we are not islands unto ourselves. As I live in this "real world" of course I must factor this in my own risk process as well and use judgement while factoring in certain unknowns.

PS: Soaplands have fallen a bit further down my todo list..

PPS: The post turned out much longer than I thought so to be clear, the tl;dr - I do understand the comparatively low risks in Japan, HIV is extremely rare, but by definition what each of us chooses to do does affect one another even in a minor way.

 

[Kulbutor]

The Fukushima incident is a great example of how unwarranted fears and hysteria can be harmful. See

http://nyti.ms/1V6uPN4

and

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/...adiation-did-more-damage-than-radi#.tl9J7jPm1

For those who don''t want to read the articles, there was never any significant danger IN TOKYO from radioactive material released at Fukushima, but the fear associated with the government and media panic actually killed well over a 1000 people via extreme stress and harmed many others. Moreover, precious resources (notably fuel and transport/trucks) needed to help the victims of the tsunami in Tohoku were squandered on protecting Tokyo from a nonexistent threat. This is as established by studies (years after the actual events) conducted by outside (foreign) experts not working for the nuclear industry or the Japanese government and published in leading international (peer-reviewed) scientific journals. (If anyone wishes to discuss this topic further, we should start a separate thread, obviously.)




-Ww

But that exactly what i said! You really dont understand or its another rhetoric playing... the stats, the figuresn that you get on your computers, newpapers etc, and which are flooding your posts, reflect your lack of personal analysis, because figures and stats can be told what you want, its better to use your brain. Everyone can play the little secretary, browsing info here and there, its so easy to do.
no worry, i explain to you again: the Fukushima accident first was denied, exactly like the Tchernobyl was, just for not throw in panic the population, its the same for the diseases, but where i agree with you its that the "disinformation" can be done in the 2 sens, so what i said its: dont believe all you read here and there. Can you open your mind?

 

[Kulbutor]

guys who treat her particularly well.

-Ww

fucking her BB? And deliver to her your God's seed! Yeaaaah.

LMAO man, this it the best one