I Hate Night Clubs !

[Sinapse]

Which HUB are you claiming is so easy or are you claiming they all are?

Well, you still need some skill. I think the era of "show up and be white and claim your free endless Japanese poon" that @Wwanderer was talking about earlier is definitely gone, unfortunately, but Japan still is a lovely fountain of young sexually active and slim women, provided you can talk to them well

I mostly go to the hubs in Shinjuku, Ikebukuro and Shibuya.. I would say HUB is definitely the easiest night venue out there

 

[Solong]

No, I'm saying that years ago the hub was okish............
but the hub sucks......

I agree. The HUB was known for pickup years ago, definitely not now. HUB stopped being a great hookup spot around 2012 or so (it gradually faded downwards) I will try to explain the difference, and what I saw. Something few guys will or can, and as a gold card having HUB member.

Years ago, SINGLE Japanese women would come by themselves (without friends) from other prefectures or surrounding areas to particular HUBs. This way they were more anonymous. No Japanese co-workers, classmates, or close friends around or knew what they were doing.

If they came with a girlfriend, and she was looking for hookup, these were often "club" girlfriends. That is a Japanese girlfriend she met previously at HUB or other club, who is also hunting for guys. This is DIFFERENT from college classmates, co-workers, or friends since childhood. With "club" girlfriends, they only hang out together there and don't mind separating from each other.

This is prior to online dating applications on mobile phones becoming popular in Japan. Even some such women would have backpacks or bring a change of clothes. They were very willing to meet guys for sex or hang out partying in Tokyo for a few days.

This wasn't every and not most Japanese women in the HUB, but there was a significant percentage. And in proportion to foreigners coming there, a good match in ratio.

However, HUB then became popular for such hook up, and got a NEGATIVE reputation by many Japanese and at the same time loads of Japanese guys started coming to find such women. The word was passed for them to get the "easy" women or try their luck. So at times HUB would be 80% to even 90% guys.

The Japanese women who came alone to HUB, were getting questioned and arguably harassed by other Japanese. Even at times by HUB female staff, who saw the same woman frequent the place. I would watch this occur repeatedly. Other Japanese women would ask them where they are from, why they came alone, or why they liked foreigners. Many Japanese guys would get over aggressive/drunk aggressive with such women, or get into odd territorial aggressiveness with foreigners. Like "She is my girlfriend." (she never met him), "That gaijin is a playboy." (he's never seen that foreigner before), "She's with us." (She's not with them. )

Basically, the single Japanese women coming to HUB alone and looking to hook up, pretty much STOPPED. Mobile dating applications, like Tinder, arguably took over. Instead of her having to expose herself to ridicule or any inconvenience, she could pick guys from online. Of course online dating apps have lots of problems too, but it's convenient and now popular.

Japanese women coming to HUB now, tend to do so with close friends and in groups (group pressure and dynamics), and are often very concerned about being labeled "sluts" or "gaijin hunters" by OTHER Japanese, who might know or see them talking with foreigners. The HUB has a strong negative reputation, against SNL sex hookup. Charai!

Not saying a hookup can't happen, but now it's more often phone number and LINE exchange. This way she can meet you later, WITHOUT her girlfriends, IF she really likes you and actually replies to LINE messages. It's often you versus all those other guys online and in her LINE contacts.

Unfortunately, many foreigners don't know this and because of the HUBs long ago reputation and seemingly foreign atmosphere, appear to think of it better than it is. But still, it's a well known place to spend up your money getting ridiculously drunk.

 

[Sinapse]

Yeah.. Again, I wasn't here and it sounds like it was glorious in the 90s and early 2000s but... You definitely CAN still pull regularly from HUB. Just requires a little more effort and navigation than seems like it used to. Personally, I don't like "freebies" which is why I tend to gravitate away from girls who serially date foreigners, so I don't think I'd really actually like it if I went there and they were throwing themselves at me anyway..

I think it's better for me to be here when it takes a little effort and skill because then I feel like it's an accomplishment rather than just something that fell into my lap

 

[Solong]

Yeah.. Again, I wasn't here and it sounds like it was glorious in the 90s and early 2000s but... You definitely CAN still pull regularly from HUB. Just requires a little more effort and navigation than seems like it used to. Personally, I don't like "freebies" which is why I tend to gravitate away from girls who serially date foreigners, so I don't think I'd really actually like it if I went there and they were throwing themselves at me anyway..

I think it's better for me to be here when it takes a little effort and skill because then I feel like it's an accomplishment rather than just something that fell into my lap

And how HUB is now, I agree it will often take some skill. That's why I'm leery about it being recommended as a place that the "Average Joe" is going to run up in and easily score like an Ace.

It's more LINE exchange culture. You are likely talking to her in front of her childhood friends, co-workers, and classmates. She often needs to be on her best behavior, and so do you. Like an interview.

The reason I was being a bit hard on you, is because my swinger pals and I tend toward SNL when possible or bringing ladies to sex orgies and happening bars. The difference between types of women at the HUB, and who is up for action, is very noticeable to us.

I have swinger pals that hate HUB. They can walk around a place for 5 minutes or so and tell if it's good or bullshit. It's the level of experience at spotting opportunities and prospects. And if it's clearly going be a long drawn out LINE exchange game or waste all night playing drinking games with her (then she running home to catch the last train and never heard from again), they can go anywhere for that. You can pull LINE contacts from women at Burger King and McDonalds. LOL! Nothing special about doing so from HUB.

 

[Sinapse]

Yeah recently I don't really get LINEs unless they're out-of-the-park amazing chicks.. It's pretty much SNL or nothing at this point for me

Re: Girls in groups being abundant.. that is the case, but if there's two you can pull them both! This is what me and my mates have been doing recently.. just bring the two chicks back to one of our houses and have an orgy right then and there! We coined it the SNO..

If there's three girls, either pull them all or peel off one you like and run for the hills! The one will be up for it as long as the other two friends don't call her.. which they will.. this takes some negotiation and skill. One of the best ways to do this is if one of the girls is really into you, just tell her what to tell her friends - for example "We are going to the conbini to get a snack" or "I'm gonna go home and take last train". The girl then relays this to the other two girls, and you're free to leave with her (or in the "last train" case.. meet her outside). Same thing if she's with a big group.. On top of that, sometimes they'll just peel off from the group out the back door with you when nobody's looking. Alternatively, bang em in the bathroom if it's not too crowded..

 

[namae]

And how HUB is now, I agree it will often take some skill. That's why I'm leery about it being recommended as a place that the "Average Joe" is going to run up in and easily score like an Ace.

I think some of the confusion revolves around the concepts of "Average Joe" and Ace. Consider three guys in the HUB in central Tokyo:

A. Average Joe ( lets call him "Turd"). He is clueless on PUA.
B. Ace or Dr. Ace , he is basically a clone of Turd but with a highly tuned and JPN localized PUA Game ( lets call him polished "Turd").
C. Brian - he hasn't got a clue about PUA, never heard of the GAME, never considered reading a book on meeting women or attending bootcamp. He is 35-40, single, professional, self made multi-millionaire, speaks English as his first language ( doesn't speak JPN or any other language). Above average looking but no Brad Pitt. Great character and personality, friends and colleagues describe him as a great guy, sociable, fun to be with, genuine and honest. Staying at the Park Hyatt/Ritz Carlton or living in Aoyama/Hiroo/Shoto ( lets call him Rough Diamond)

Who do you back in the HUB showdown? ( Let's assume they are all caucasian, native English speakers)

Was it Bruce Lee or Woody Allen that said: "A polished Turd never trumps a Rough Diamond"

 

[Solong]

I think some of the confusion revolves around the concepts of "Average Joe" and Ace. Consider three guys in the HUB in central Tokyo:

A. Average Joe ( lets call him "Turd"). He is clueless on PUA.
B. Ace or Dr. Ace , he is basically a clone of Turd but with a highly tuned and JPN localized PUA Game ( lets call him polished "Turd").
C. Brian - he hasn't got a clue about PUA, never heard of the GAME, never considered reading a book on meeting women or attending bootcamp. He is 35-40, single, professional, self made multi-millionaire, speaks English as his first language ( doesn't speak JPN or any other language). Above average looking but no Brad Pitt. Great character and personality, friends and colleagues describe him as a great guy, sociable, fun to be with, genuine and honest. Staying at the Park Hyatt/Ritz Carlton or living in Aoyama/Hiroo/Shoto ( lets call him Rough Diamond)

Who do you back in the HUB showdown? ( Let's assume they are all caucasian, native English speakers)

Was it Bruce Lee or Woody Allen that said: "A polished Turd never trumps a Rough Diamond"

A self-made multi-millionaire isn't the average guy walking into HUB.

Between Ace and Brian (the millionaire), it's a toss up. In terms of who to bet money on. Depends on how they present themselves, plus looks and appearance.

Positives- Ace, more likely having verbal and language skills to persuade women. But Brian more likely to attract women by looking like "money" and more likely talking about the "rich lifestyle", which can catch the ear of many Japanese women, IF they understand English well enough or believe he is authentic.

Negatives- Ace comes off like a two-bit hustler or very suspicious. Brian is simply not believed (too good to be true), and comes off clumsy and clueless in how to deal with Japanese women, or way too arrogant and egotistical.

 

[John Chavers]

Because if the HUB is that easy, and most of the Japanese women are looking for and throwing their panties at foreigners there

I'm not a man-slut like you PUAirheads. I've never seen a woman better than a 5 on a good day at the HUB, so just because she's hunting foreigners doesn't mean I should take her home.

I have a good memory, so the last thing I want are unappetizing flashbacks of Yoko Busu-tan's face while I'm having lunch.

I'm not understanding all these mongers having to buy sex

You'll never get it. How's this: "PUA is a waste of time if you make more than the minimum wage." It's direct marketing applied to dating: tiny fractions of conversions for countless hours of mind-numbing conversations.

 

[Solong]

I'm not a man-slut like you PUAirheads. I've never seen a woman better than a 5 on a good day at the HUB, so just because she's hunting foreigners doesn't mean I should take her home.

I have a good memory, so the last thing I want are unappetizing flashbacks of Yoko Busu-tan's face while I'm having lunch.


You'll never get it. How's this: "PUA is a waste of time if you make more than the minimum wage." It's direct marketing applied to dating: tiny fractions of conversions for countless hours of mind-numbing conversations.

Dude, really? "Man-slut". I find it weird that a monger that buys women for sex, would call other men, "man-slut". What do you call the sex worker that has serviced you and possibly several other men that day? "Woman-slut". And how much holier than thou is a monger who has a wife, and cheats on her with prostitutes or pays "sluts" for sex?

You must not go to HUB then, because definitely I've seen tall, slim, healthy, and well built college girls running around there looking better than a 5. Definitely have seen at least 6s and 7s, and occasionally 8s. And I don't like HUB these days.

Just because she might be hunting foreigners, doesn't me she will come back home with you either. Women have an option too.

I do understand that actually talking to women can be difficult for some of us men, but I dare say some women appreciate the conversation. I don't think every woman appreciates a silent brute just throwing money at her and then trying to shove his dick in her mouth. Maybe some sweet talk beforehand?

 

[John Chavers]

Dude, really? "Man-slut"

Hey, if the label fits... I didn't know you were getting paid to pickup on meh women. How's this: "we have widely differing views on what constitutes good looking".

Definitely have seen at least 6s and 7s, and occasionally 8s.

Not a strong vote of confidence.

Just because she might be hunting foreigners, doesn't me she will come back home with you either.

I would bet good money that I have a higher conversion rate of doing absolutely nothing more than, 「すみません、お手洗いはどちらですか？」at the HUB than you do with your PUA three-card monty tricks anywhere else in Japan.

 

[Solong]

Hey, if the label fits... I didn't know you were getting paid to pickup on meh women. How's this: "we have widely differing views on what constitutes good looking".


Not a strong vote of confidence.


I would bet good money that I have a higher conversion rate of doing absolutely nothing more than, 「すみません、お手洗いはどちらですか？」at the HUB than you do with your PUA three-card monty tricks anywhere else in Japan.

So you are higher level than PUA guys, and pick up more women. Oh really? I'm not understanding why you are paying for it then, when you just so easily get laid with hot 9s and 10s. Maybe you should write a book. "King of the PUAs"

 

[Wwanderer]

You aren't slick. The strawman is coming from you. The question I'm asking is what is different about what I have described that you haven't seen before or the large legion of men that you claim?

You gave ZERO examples. All that you are doing is playing a subtle game of strawman. Then accussing me, of something you are very much doing.

You then state that you have seen women lie and cheat too (oh my, they are humans not infallible princesses). That's agreement about reality, not what is so different about the fantasy of Japan you seem trying to perpetuate.

Exactly what are you trying to say about Japanese women or Japan anyway, in contrast? That things always go silky smooth here... Come on, stop with that BS.

OK, I get that you don't want to talk about why your TAG posts collectively portray women, especially Japanese women, in a way that is (or "appears" if you prefer) quite different from the experiences of many (most? all??) others on TAG as well as elsewhere. Fine, there's no reason, nor should there be pressure, to respond to any topic at all on an open net forum such as this one, and especially to a topic that is about you personally. So, I'll let it drop here and merely express a hope that "you enjoy driving your Porsche more than all your constant and diverse complaints about it would lead one to think" (so to speak).

-Ww

 

[Solong]

OK, I get that you don't want to talk about why your TAG posts collectively portray women, especially Japanese women, in a way that is (or "appears" if you prefer) quite different from the experiences of many (most? all??) others on TAG as well as elsewhere. Fine, there's no reason, nor should there be pressure, to respond to any topic at all on an open net forum such as this one, and especially to a topic that is about you personally. So, I'll let it drop here and merely express a hope that "you enjoy driving your Porsche more than all your constant and diverse complaints about it would lead one to think" (so to speak).

-Ww

I've dealt with many types of Japanese women, and have lots of experiences. I simply call it, like I see it. I don't feel compelled to sugarcoat or beholden to a PC narrative of never saying anything bad about Japan.

Ww, think about it more deeply. The man cursing his Porsche the most, is often the one racing them and trying to get every ounce of performance out of them.

As for myself and friends of mine, we adore and love women; and Japanese women. I seek to enjoy relationships and Japan to the max.

 

[Wwanderer]

I'm not understanding all these mongers having to buy sex. There is a clear disconnect with reality somewhere.

You'll never get it. How's this: "PUA is a waste of time if you make more than the minimum wage." It's direct marketing applied to dating: tiny fractions of conversions for countless hours of mind-numbing conversations.

I agree with JC (our local TAG guy quoted above, not the famous historical one) on this. The disconnect lies in your unsupported and incorrect assumption that mongers buy sex because it is their only option for having sex. This is true in some cases, no doubt, but not in most (at least not among the numerous mongers I know). Most have and avail themselves of other options, but also choose to purchase sex sometimes. In fact I listed a few of the reasons (by no means all of them) in a recent thread but repeat them here to refresh memories:

1 - p4p is often far more convenient and requires far less time and effort than np4p options
2 - p4p produces *reliably* NSA sex (i.e., with no need to deal with the person further after the encounter)
3 - p4p is often more acceptable to np4p partners, is not considered cheating or not such serious cheating
4 - p4p allows one to access partners much younger and/or more attractive than one's self

I recommend memorizing my posts in the future; trust me, they're worth it!

But why are we back to discussing p4p again anyway, as though it were the only or primary alternative to clubbing, with or without PUA skills/tricks? Isn't it just trying to attack those who are criticizing PUA or clubbing or whatever (here) rather than trying to answer their criticisms? In other words, there is much that could be (and has been) said for and against p4p...a perfectly good topic imo and one I'm happy to discuss, but none of it has anything to do with the merits or demerits of PUA, clubbing, social circle dating etc.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I've dealt with many types of Japanese women, and have lots of experiences. I simply call it, like I see it. I don't feel compelled to sugarcoat or beholden to a PC narrative of never saying anything bad about Japan.

Ww, think about it more deeply. The man cursing his Porsche the most, is often the one racing them and trying to get every ounce of performance out of them.

As for myself and friends of mine, we adore and love women; and Japanese women. I seek to enjoy relationships and Japan to the max.

Good. I'm glad to hear it. Seriously.

That said, I can assure you that what you say above is not how you generally come across to many (maybe most) of your readers on TAG.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

the era of "show up and be white and claim your free endless Japanese poon" that @Wwanderer was talking about earlier is definitely gone, ...

I may have given the wrong impression of the good ol' bubble days, now long gone by, in at least one important respect. There were certainly a few places along the lines you describe above (and I described in a previous post you mention) in Roppongi back then (that is how/why the area became so famous/notorious), but the overall scene in Tokyo was much more difficult for gaijin then than it is now, at least in my experience.

There are two main reasons: First, Japanese customers were so numerous and spent so much that many many more places (including ordinary bars and restaurants, not just clubs and commercial sex shops of various sorts) turned away gain customers as a matter of routine policy. Basically they didn't need the money of foreigners enough to offset the (possible) hassles of dealing with them. Second and very important, without English-language (or any other language for that matter) net/web communities sharing information, it was incredibly more difficult for gaijin (especially those who didn't read Japanese) to find the few gaijin-friendly places that were available. Basically, you had to do your own personal search door-to-door...which could be incredibly time-consuming and frustrating.

And, of course, if you ever did find a welcoming, gaijin-friendly place, you had to walk there and back up-hill five miles in the snow both ways!

-Ww

 

[DJV]

And, of course, when you did find a welcoming, gaijin-friendly place, you had to walk there up-hill five miles in the snow both ways!

-Ww

I didn't know Dōgenzaka was that snowy back in the days

Since I've been visiting Japan a few times since 2005, I felt these changes and I for one have been looking for the old splendor of Roppongi etc.
I also felt the energy going down, and even wondered if coming back to Japan was a good idea after all and not disappoint me even more.
But then I could see all kinds of new places, and a change of behaviour towards gaijins.

I really prefer today's JGirls that are open to gaijins not because they're exotic and transgressing the society's taboos, but because talking cultures is pleasant and playful.
And with the seemingly decreasing energy, it's just a matter of learning more japanese and better find his way in the J-society to have a better grasp at the life and interactions there.
Certainly better than plain tourism.
That's what I like about you guys, even if you argue all the time

 

[Wwanderer]

I really prefer today's JGirls that are open to gaijins not because they're exotic and transgressing the society's taboos, but because talking cultures is pleasant and playful.
And with the seemingly decreasing energy, it's just a matter of learning more japanese and better find his way in the J-society to have a better grasp at the life and interactions there.

I definitely agree on both points.

A more general version of the latter one is simply to note the obvious fact that one's personal circumstances are typically more important than the overall scene/situation in the town. For example, I can personally enjoy what Tokyo offers to a MUCH greater extent today than I did one or more decades back simply because I have quite a bit more money to spend and because I have a much more extensive network of personal friends and contacts than I did in earlier years.

-Ww

 

[SpookySmoothie]

I definitely agree on both points.

A more general version of the latter one is simply to note the obvious fact that one's personal circumstances are typically more important than the overall scene/situation in the town. For example, I can personally enjoy what Tokyo offers to a MUCH greater extent today than I did one or more decades back simply because I have quite a bit more money to spend and because I have a much more extensive network of personal friends and contacts than I did in earlier years.

-Ww

Maybe it's just like any aspect of life in that it's what you make of it. After living and working in Japan for so many years if you don't become jaded you probably end up in your position building a life and contacts. It's all new for me and my grasp of the language is not fully good enough to build those relationships so to me right now Tokyo is a lonely place though finding fun wasn't as hard as it seemed for you back in the days of old even with my limited grasp on the languge though meeting friends and girls took a little more effort it's surprising how much you can communicate in broken language and gestures. On the subject of nightclubs,bars etc and women in Japan however I will say that I'm not madly keen on drunk Japanese women they seem to go into one of two modes after drinking 1. cry 2. collapse in sick and I don't have the stomach like Japanese guys do to just carry them to a love hotel sick and all. I had far more luck in the live houses for sure usually at those they are there for the show so have the one drink from the one you have to pay for then go out after so it was easier to chat and invite them for food then try to lead them to a love hotel (thankfully both Shinjuku and Shibuya has many live houses and love hotels both So convenient!) and hope they don't panic when you arrive.

Seriously it seems like you have been in Japan almost as long as I've been alive XD.

 

[Wwanderer]

Maybe it's just like any aspect of life in that it's what you make of it.

Precisely so, imo.

Seriously it seems like you have been in Japan almost as long as I've been alive XD.

That is certainly possible. I first came to Japan a little less than 30 years ago and have been spending large chunks of time in Tokyo for over 25 years. It is definitely longer than many of the women I date (sugar and np4p) have been alive...which slightly weirds me out.

None of this subthread is making me feel any younger! Where's @just4fun when he's needed!?

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

"PUA is a waste of time if you make more than the minimum wage." It's direct marketing applied to dating: tiny fractions of conversions for countless hours of mind-numbing conversations.

If you find talking with women mind-numbing, it doesn't surprise me you don't get enough success to make it worth your time. I personally find it exciting talking to women, and enjoy it greatly. As a result, it's often no harder than talking to someone in line at the conbini when buying a drink to find a new partner for the night. I'm not "spending" any time whatsoever.. just going through my daily routine. If it fails, theres always 5 or 6 girls no more than a phone call away for some free "delivery health". They often bring food or drinks as well. Net monetary gain! And time invested - quite minimal these days.

I think the real reason I do it is for the chase. The fan dance of courtship. It's much more exciting to me than paying for a determined outcome. I like to know that the girl is choosing me because of my actions and attractiveness - not because it's her job and she's forced to. Sex is a secondary goal.. knowing the woman and bringing her into my world willingly is the main goal. Sometimes, when I pull a girl home I don't even sleep with her. These days I do a lot of catch and release. I suspect that boggles your "minimum time and money invested for sex" mindset. But yes, I actually do like women and being around them more than even the act of sex, most of the time... so why would I pay for sex?

I would bet good money that I have a higher conversion rate of doing absolutely nothing more than, 「すみません、お手洗いはどちらですか？」at the HUB than you do with your PUA three-card monty tricks anywhere else in Japan.

wait, seriously? I'll take you up on that. Not sure what a "PUA three-card monty" trick is though.. you might have to show me how to do it

That "line" isn't bad, but it's a bit weak.. hiding your purpose behind a question you already know the answer to. One might say its.... a..... "PUA trick"

dun dun dunnnn

What is this, an M. Night Shyamalan movie?

I'd personally go with something more direct like... are you ready? ... "Hi."

 

[just4fun]

Precisely so, imo.



That is certainly possible. I first came to Japan a little less than 30 years ago and have been spending large chunks of time in Tokyo for over 25 years. It is definitely longer than many of the women I date (sugar and np4p) have been alive...which slightly weirds me out.

None of this subthread is making me feel any younger! Where's @just4fun when he's needed!?

-Ww

I'm right here......what are you whining about now ol'timer

 

[DJV]

I think the real reason I do it is for the chase. The fan dance of courtship. It's much more exciting to me than paying for a determined outcome. I like to know that the girl is choosing me because of my actions and attractiveness - not because it's her job and she's forced to. Sex is a secondary goal.. knowing the woman and bringing her into my world willingly is the main goal. Sometimes, when I pull a girl home I don't even sleep with her. These days I do a lot of catch and release. I suspect that boggles your "minimum time and money invested for sex" mindset. But yes, I actually do like women and being around them more than even the act of sex, most of the time... so why would I pay for sex?

Given you have provide seminars, prepare a book etc., PUA seems very well linked to your personal economy.
So at this level, and even with all your alledged success and free access to sex, it's not a money-free zero-sum game.

It looks like you are a PUA provider. Not saying it's good or bad, but money is in the context and plays a role.
Would you be as good a PUA without spending so much time and focus on it (both increased because PUA brings you some income) ?
If you did less PUA and get no money for it, wouldn't you have other(s) job(s), less pickup time, and feel the need to do p4p to compensate ?

 

[Sinapse]

Given you have provide seminars, prepare a book etc., PUA seems very well linked to your personal economy.
So at this level, and even with all your alledged success and free access to sex, it's not a money-free zero-sum game.

It looks like you are a PUA provider. Not saying it's good or bad, but money is in the context and plays a role.
Would you be as good a PUA without spending so much time and focus on it (both increased because PUA brings you some income) ?
If you did less PUA and get no money for it, wouldn't you have other(s) job(s), less pickup time, and feel the need to do p4p to compensate ?

Good question! The whole teaching side of it has only started recently really when I was asked by a bunch of people like the leader of jlair, and Dorian Gray, the guy who has been teaching for quite some time now. We now team teach, and it's mostly just for the love and passion of it, not the money (it isn't much). I still work full time normal hours do everything I do for my side businesses and pickup is all during weekends and nights, also split between lifting at the gym and kickboxing at another gym. So yeah, I'm basically busy from morning until I hit the hay.

Yeah, and I never got into it to make money in the first place. It first started with "how can I just get laid / find a girlfriend" and then moved to "how can I get those REALLY hot girls that you never see foreigners with" (except just occasionally, with a black dude). I was always driven by curiosity and desire, and never once really thought I might be spending my time poorly.. What else would I be doing in my free time anyway? Playing MMORPGs? Watching anime? Nothing, besides maybe getting outdoors to Okutama and hiking some mountains really appealed me. And I sometimes found time to do that. The only thing that might have been a better use of my time would be to bust my ass building a business.. Which is now what I'm trying to do (not just with pickup - the bigger one is another side business).

But yeah, IF I was starved for sex (like at the beginning of my journey into pickup in Japan) and didn't know that one could improve, I might have turned to p4p. But I still don't like throwing my money away on consumables, I'd much rather invest it.. And p4p seems like it doesn't really have much in the way of returns. With pickup I could SEE myself get better, and not just with women.. With the way EVERYBODY reacted to me. So.. It's pretty noticeable really. There's a reason guys like Napoleon Hill, Dale Carnegie, and the rest of the business greats are part of the foundation for pickup. It's skills for life, not skills to compile a trick book to manipulate women into your bed. Mystery and the crazy stereotypes of negs etc, are basically the "blackface" of pickup - an outdated characature that wasn't ever fully understood and really lost a lot of relevance shortly after. But the foundation was there.

 

[Solong]

Given you have provide seminars, prepare a book etc., PUA seems very well linked to your personal economy.
So at this level, and even with all your alledged success and free access to sex, it's not a money-free zero-sum game.

It looks like you are a PUA provider. Not saying it's good or bad, but money is in the context and plays a role.
Would you be as good a PUA without spending so much time and focus on it (both increased because PUA brings you some income) ?
If you did less PUA and get no money for it, wouldn't you have other(s) job(s), less pickup time, and feel the need to do p4p to compensate ?

I'm not a PUA provider, and find the time to do pick up. That's why I talk about and recommend convenient locations and being opportunistic.

Talking to women while riding the train, stopping for lunch at McDonalds or a cafe, at the airport, at Tsutaya, etc... These are all easily possible and provided a man isn't cutting himself off socially and turned himself into a work-slave or hermit/soushoku danshi.

And, I'm not against P4P, but pro male options. Choice is better.