That is actually the easiest part in mnay ways; keeping a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term (let's call that a decade or more) is MUCH MUCH harder and failure to do so is far more common than failure to ever start relationships with women.
In other words, it still seems to me that PUA techniques are an overkill solution to a relatively minor (short-lived) challenge for most men. This is probably the reason it has remained a fringe "movement" attracting a fairly small number of adherents for decades now.
Part of the difference in our perspective may well also come from our describint the same situation differently. For example, most people probably would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, but that does not mean that their lives are unhappy or ruined just because things could have been better. You can say similar things about many other aspects of life, say, money. Most people would also perfer to make more money and for less hard work than they actually do, but again that does not imply that their financial and professional situations have caused them to have an unhappy or unsuccessful life. Very very few people's lives are so good in any way at all that they could not posssibly be better; in that sense we nearly all "settle" in almost every possible realm of life. You can call those glasses/lives half full (my perspective) or half empty (perhaps yours?).
-Ww
The guys who are actually happy with the quality of girls they're able to date in my experience are a small minority. The guys who are satisfied with what they got are a much broader range, including the happy guys, but all the way down through to the guys resigned to living in comfortable mediocrity. These guys are the majority. They're the ones with an average life, average girlfriend, nothing especially wrong with settling, but meanwhile they're sharing giant bubble butt Latina pics between them over WhatsApp, fantasising about slapping that jelly instead of going out and getting it for real. Like you say, some guys would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, and yet for various reasons haven't put the effort in. Does it affect their happiness? Its easier to be satisfied with what you got for sure, maybe even they're happier not trying, not knowing. Glass half-full as you call it. But man, I could never live like that. Rather fail than just not try.
Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice.. I only started to really truly realize what I wanted with women after sleeping with and dating hundreds.. and I'm still not 100% sure, but if I had married one of those first ten impulsively, I would most likely have a very hard time staying long-term with them. I cant even imagine dating a lot of my earlier girlfriends now - for many reasons. I don't regret anything, but it's easy not to know what you want if you don't have much choice.
Pickup is as big or as little of a deal as you want to make it. It ranges from just chatting to girls next to you in line at the conbini to going hardcore and spending hours and hours on the streets and in clubs and bars. Not everybody wants to do that, and that's fine. But to think of it as something that you have to either do totally and completely or not at all seems a bit of a false dichotomy to me. I guess my main source of confusion is why people would not want to talk to women wherever they are? If you don't want to carve out large blocks of time in your day to do it, I can understand that. But why not lean over and talk to the girl sitting next to you on the bus, or who is buying a cupcake when you pass her and notice something interesting about her? Just seems kinda crazy and self-restrictive to never talk to strangers.
Couldn't have said it better..
Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice..
LOL! Nope; that's not it at all! Or very rarely in any case.
The problems which cause long term couples to break up or be unhappy with their relationships are not primarily sexual incompatibility
Another is that if a person is confident that they can easily find a new partner, it reduces their motivations to solve problems in an ongoing relationship.
I personally am not sure I will get married. So probably best not to assume everybody IS searching for one life partner or that this is the natural ideal
The question is if there is a scientific correlation between the number of sex partners and happiness.
The first link on google is this one http://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/does-sleeping-around-make-people-happier
It is based on this research paper "Money, Sex and Happiness: An Empirical Study” http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/ajoswald/finalsentscanjsex04.pdf
Some quotes from the research paper:
"The happiness-maximizing number of sexual partners in the previous year is calculated to be 1."
"people who say they have ever paid for sex are considerably less happy than others."
It seems both P4P and PUA are bad
Well that was a pretty wild misunderstanding! Where did you imagine I was talking about sexual incompatibility from?
Maybe the reason its much harder to keep a happy and satisfying relationship going long-term is because most guys don't actually really know what they like because they've only slept with ten women (on average for a lifetime, for Gen X. Less for the millennials)? Especially if you exclude P4P (which isn't really a woman you "attracted"), most guys don't have a lot of sexual partners. If you're choosing from ten women (or less in many cases!), you don't really have any clue if you've made the right choice..
My impression is that you value monogamy highly. Except... I thought you weren't married?
I personally am not sure I will get married. So probably best not to assume everybody IS searching for one life partner or that this is the natural ideal
I wonder if Berzerk-PUA has changed you up to a point you can't commit to a main relationship ?
While having numerous increasingly satisfying relationships, you distance yourself from a different level only possible with a life partner.
I feel it's the same as in sports : would you say it's better to practice multiple ones, or commit to a single one ? It seems most high level athletes have a much stronger dedication on only one sport, and it's doing them some good. They also don't need to have practiced hundreds before to find satisfaction.
OK, I know athletes have some side sports that help them complete their skills, entertain them, etc., only to be better at their main sport (or switch later).
Maybe PUA is the Decathlete of romance.
Also, with whom will you have kids as a PUA ? Not saying the relationship with the/a mother of your children can't start with a pick-up, but how will it go on the long term ? Do you shutdown PUA for a while ? Or similarly would you rather take care of hundreds of kids (like as a teacher) than having a few special ones ?
Your comment referred *only* to the sexual part of relationships and to experience with women only in terms of having slept with them. So, I got the "pretty wild" impression that you were thinking about sex. Basically you said that a guy needs to sleep with many more than 10 women to know what he "really" likes. Was I jumping to conclusions to imagine that you meant you meant what he really likes in terms of sex with women? I mean does sleeping with women help you decide what sort of woman you'd like in terms of making financial decisions or rearing children or dealing with in-laws or...
I am always a bit puzzled when these discussions veer into considering our individual personal lives, as though they were somehow relevant to the general issues we are debating, but since you have raised such questions about me, perhaps I could in turn ask you how long your longest continuous relationship to date lasted and what's the longest period you have ever lived with a woman continuously?
My point was that generally, people choose from their sex partners who they would like to continue their relationship with. In other words, sex is kind of a funnel point after which you decide longer-term. If your funnel only lets through ten women, that's not a very large sample size from which to ensure you've made the best decision for life. So actually, I meant nothing about the act of sex itself, but rather the fact that it serves as a pool from which we choose. On top of that, if we only have had sex with 10 women (again these are just averages, some guys are more some are less), how are we to know if it is really the woman we love, or just the fact that we are finally getting laid? Sex, after all, is powerfully wired in the brain, and evolution has conditioned us to place high value on having it and continuing to have it.
You gotta be running with an elite crowd or something mate, or yeah a generation gap thing cuz it's just not what I see out there. It's a toughie though, you describe satisfaction and happiness as the same or similar things, but I don't see it that way. In that case you're right about our difference in perspective, which I appreciate you explaining yours.
The guys who are actually happy with the quality of girls they're able to date in my experience are a small minority. The guys who are satisfied with what they got are a much broader range, including the happy guys, but all the way down through to the guys resigned to living in comfortable mediocrity. These guys are the majority. They're the ones with an average life, average girlfriend, nothing especially wrong with settling, but meanwhile they're sharing giant bubble butt Latina pics between them over WhatsApp, fantasising about slapping that jelly instead of going out and getting it for real. Like you say, some guys would prefer to have more great sex with hot partners in their lives than they actually do, and yet for various reasons haven't put the effort in. Does it affect their happiness? Its easier to be satisfied with what you got for sure, maybe even they're happier not trying, not knowing. Glass half-full as you call it. But man, I could never live like that. Rather fail than just not try.
Yo, I get it though, it's not the mentality of the average person. Call it glass half-empty if you like, I just call it exploring the limits of my potential. Win or lose, for me it's a catalyst to a life truly glass-full.
My point was that generally, people choose from their sex partners who they would like to continue their relationship with. In other words, sex is kind of a funnel point after which you decide longer-term. If your funnel only lets through ten women, that's not a very large sample size from which to ensure you've made the best decision for life. So actually, I meant nothing about the act of sex itself, but rather the fact that it serves as a pool from which we choose.
What I'm getting at here is that I (personally) think that men and women both should experiment a lot, have sex with a bunch of people and a wide variety of them. You should date starving artists and CEOs, models and janitors, stylists and accountants, flight attendants and fighters. Learn what you value and don't value in a partner. And when you know for sure, then maybe, if you like, get settled down! The mistake I think is when people get married to one of the first people they date.
In many ways it's similar to travel. People run through "tunnels" their whole life and everything is planned out and expected by society. Go to school, K-12, go to college/University, get an internship, join a company, work until about 40 or 50 and then realize your youth is gone and you've traveled half as much as you'd have liked (if that) and that the whole time you were working for somebody else in exchange for money which gets you what? You can live, yes, and provide for whoever you want, but is that happiness? Traveling and trying your hand at many different things is valuable, at least to me. I don't deny that having a stable career that you progress in is also valuable - my point is that there is a period before you commit too hard to things where it's nice to play around and explore the options. It's much easier before you commit then after you commit, and I hear story after story of people who commit (either in marriage or in career) and have massive regrets later on about not trying more things when they were younger.
As for cohabilitation.. I have avoided living with women my whole life because I lived with too many in my childhood! I'm not interested in living with a woman long-term right now as it would massively cramp my style, but I can respect how taxing and difficult it can be.
So it's not that some people don't have too much choice because of their lack of experience and partners, it's because they have a different way to start and build a relationship, and it's much more time-consuming and (supposedly) exclusive. Pretty much contradictory with PUA, because it relies on things going slowly....even as slow as they can.
most people are finding potential long-term partners in the reverse order from you or what you had in mind in your post. Their "funnel point" is not sex partners but social acquaintenances and friends.
You have mentioned, if I recall correctly, that you rarely take a woman out for a thrid date if there was no sex during the first two. I am not criticizing that practice for you, but it would be extremely unwise for most people imo and would produce a lot fewer successful/stable/happy long term relationships. If you talk to couples who have been together for decades about how they met, you will very often hear that they knew each other for quite a long time, often years, before they "got interested in each other" or "started dating". It is as common as dirt and probably the most common way people meet their long term mates.
PUA/gaming seems to me to put far too much emphasis on the very first (and relatively easy) steps toward finding the sort of sexual/romantic lives most people seek
Yeah man that's cool. It just comes down to being honest with yourself about why you do what you do, and being able to live with that answer, cuz I reckon a lot of people bullshit and short-change the one person they should treat the best and respect the most: themselves.Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful reply. After reading it, I don't think we are actually very far apart on all these issues of "happiness" vs "settling" and "comfortable mediocrity" and "mentality of the average person" etc. It is much the way I see it too. Note, of course, that there *must* be a lot of people near and below average in any reasonable distribution.
What most PUAs and many in the p4p community seem to misunderstand or forget is that most people simply aren't that strongly motivated by sex as long as they are getting their basic needs met regularly.
A horny young person who does not yet/currently have a regular and dependable partner may well devote huge resources and effort to getting laid as may someone who (like most of us on TAG) is obsessed with sex. But a typical middle aged man living with an SO and having a regular sex-life with her may well be more motivated by his enjoyment of golf or his career or his kids etc. By this I mean that he may well put more time, energy, effort, money and resources in general into them and may derive greater pleasure from them. He will enjoy looking at (in real life or in images) super-hot younger women, may even fantasize about them a lot, talk about them to other guys and would be delighted to have one (or more) if they were easily available to him, but it is not enough of a motivation to make him do anything much about it. A lot of mongers are like this, btw; they occasionally (maybe one or a few times per year) see an escort to fulfill some fantasy about a partner's body or to do activities that aren't acceptable to his partner, but it is not a major part of his sex life or life in general.
Again, it is not so different with money. Most people are not that motivated to really put huge effort into earning more as long as they have enough income to meet their basic needs and their family's. They'd be glad to have it if they could get it easily, but they aren't going to bend their lives seriously to try to get it. They settle and maybe buy a lottery ticket occasionally and fantasize about what they would do if they won. (If I win the current US$1.5 billion Powerball lottery, there are going to be a bunch of VERY HAPPY SBs and escorts in Tokyo!)
-Ww
Sure.. thats great! ......IF people in your social circle are attractive and attracted to you, and IF you don't mind ONLY choosing from your social circle.
I see what you're saying (and I knew as I typed the last post that this was the obvious counterpoint that would come up). But I see a lot of guys who turn to game because they...
In addition to those points, the notable fact you seem to be excluding is that game works wonders on warm approaches / people you already know. What attracts women you don't know attracts women you do and are comfortable with tenfold.
If its easy for you, lucky you are! But I wouldn't assume every guy has such an easy time finding sexual partners! I hear it all the time from guys who can't really get laid here. Even those that do - just walk around Tokyo.
By comparison our female foreigner counterparts are doing quite well for themselves!
Yeah man that's cool. It just comes down to being honest with yourself about why you do what you do, and being able to live with that answer, cuz I reckon a lot of people bullshit and short-change the one person they should treat the best and respect the most: themselves.
Nothing wrong with the guy who's got the basic girlfriend with the vanilla sex, the office job, the 4-door saloon and meatloaf on Tuesdays. As long as he's being honest with himself when he says this is what he wants, not what he's settling for cuz he's scared or lazy or whatever. Or, even if hes honest about being scared or not being motivated enough to seek out what he wants, is he really okay with that.
while most adult men would like having more and more attractive sex partners and love to talk about such women, in reality they expend much more effort on their work, their families and even their hobbies. This too implies strength of motivation.
Uhhh...you do realize that this is absolutely contrary to conventional wisdom in the gaijin community, and even in the popular media? There were a bunch of articles on how dismally difficult it is for a foreign woman to date Japanese men a few years back. It is the reason that mixed couples in Japan are about 10x more likely to be a J-female with a Western-male than vice versa.
At an extreme, a guy can easily have interacted with hundreds of women he knows/met in various ways over a period of years, and he is selecting from those, not just the one's he has sex with
Honestly, I think most people's main motivation is comfort, ...
I'm just describing what I see.. Which doesn't have anything to do with longevity. Maybe the relationships are very unstable and unhappy, but at least foreign women walk around with very nice looking dudes! Conversely, maybe the relationships are very happy and long term, but the foreign men I see by and large aren't walking around with Japanese stunners
Having sex with only ten people in my life just sounds boring to me!
Having sex with only ten people in my life just sounds boring to me!
Basically agree, though fear seems to be an increasingly important motivator in modern First World societies, which is quite sadly ironic when you consider how much vastly safer those who live in those cultures are than people who live elsewhere and/or in the past.
-Ww
We should really drop the whole "sex is immoral" thing and provide the best sex ed, easy to get birth control and entaustiatic, willing sexworkers.
I agree that P4P has it's place and should be legalized. If cuts down on the mafia and underage issues, plus lowers STD rates due to testing. If anything, governments should TAX it (money for school, infrastructure, health care...), not trying the impossible of eliminating it.In my view, p4p is necessary. I don't have hard statictics but almost all the countries i have heard of rape being alarming high don't have decent legal or tolerated prostitution.
I'm not saying legal prostitution could stop all rape cases or something or that guys have to react their frustrations on sex workers or that guys who do p4p would rape girls if they couldn't.
But the thing is, if you relieve yourself with a positive experience with a nice provider on time (so well before being frustrated) it could have positive inpacts on your whole life.
The stricter a society is about sexuality the more aggression, frustration and misunderstandings it causes.
We should really drop the whole "sex is immoral" thing and provide the best sex ed, easy to get birth control and entaustiatic, willing sexworkers.