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(apocalypse Opener)shock & Awe By Ciaran

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Wwanderer said:
Perhaps we are drifting too far into the area of personal attacks, which are forbidden on TAG, as opposed to attacks on what a poster says.

Personally I think I've had enough of this thread. Imo, @4vibes posts do the PUA "movement" much more harm than good, and there is little point in rebutting them; they rebut themselves.

And, in any case, I am too overrun with NYC SBs at the moment to have time for any more of this. I'm Wwexiting this thread.

-Ww
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Considering the hypocrisy of the P4P, PUA has nothing to worry.
 
4vibes said:
Considering the hypocrisy of the P4P, PUA has nothing to worry.
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PUA Poster Boy

Bill-Cosby-Mugshot1.jpg
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4vibes said:
Let's see...
+Uses position of power to get girls into compromising positions.
+Implied ability to help girls career.
+Exploited vulnerable girls.

Sounds like a P4P.
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Sorry, you and I have very different definitions of PUA and P4P.

Your examples, for me, seem to fall within the realm of PUA.

In PUA, one party uses any technique at his/her disposal to psychologically reach a goal. It may or may not be accompanied by mood enhancements, usually alcohol, but in Bill Cosby's situation, drugs.
An excerpt from one account:

Cosby had been attracted to Andrea the first time he saw her, at a Temple basketball game. “Before he acted upon that interest, he needed to develop a friendship with her,” according to a police affidavit. He courted her with his stardom, power, and influence, inviting her to dinners with academics and entertainment-industry professionals, and offering her fatherly advice about her life and career plans.

...In Cosby’s view, it was an evening of consensual sex. “I don’t hear her say anything,” he would later say of the encounter. “And so I continue and I go into the area that is somewhere between permission and rejection. I am not stopped.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/bill-cosby-andrea-constand-sexual-assault-trial

*Disclaimer*
In no way am I implying that any of TAG's virtuous PUA would stoop so low as Bill Cosby. To me, he is a PUA on steroids.

However, there are similarities in the techniques-that women can be seduced through the practice of technical skills and manipulation of the environment.


In P4P, two consenting adults agree to a one-time service for monetary compensation. No ambiguity, just a straight forward agreement.
 
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roots reggae said:
Sorry, you and I have very different definitions of PUA and P4P.

Your examples, for me, seem to fall within the realm of PUA.

In PUA, one party uses any technique at his/her disposal to psychologically reach a goal. It may or may not be accompanied by mood enhancements, usually alcohol, but in Bill Cosby's situation, drugs.
An excerpt from one account:

Cosby had been attracted to Andrea the first time he saw her, at a Temple basketball game. “Before he acted upon that interest, he needed to develop a friendship with her,” according to a police affidavit. He courted her with his stardom, power, and influence, inviting her to dinners with academics and entertainment-industry professionals, and offering her fatherly advice about her life and career plans.

...In Cosby’s view, it was an evening of consensual sex. “I don’t hear her say anything,” he would later say of the encounter. “And so I continue and I go into the area that is somewhere between permission and rejection. I am not stopped.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/bill-cosby-andrea-constand-sexual-assault-trial

*Disclaimer*
In no way am I implying that any of TAG's virtuous PUA would stoop so low as Bill Cosby. To me, he is a PUA on steroids.

However, there are similarities in the techniques-that women can be seduced through the practice of technical skills and manipulation of the environment.


In P4P, two consenting adults agree to a one-time service for monetary compensation. No ambiguity, just a straight forward agreement.
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PUA has no position of power to use to get women into compromising positions. P4P use $$$/power to get girls. Cosby used his position in the industry to get industry girls.
 
4vibes said:
PUA has no position of power to use to get women into compromising positions. P4P use $$$/power to get girls. Cosby used his position in the industry to get industry girls.
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So what you are implying is that a homeless rag has an equal amount of chance compared to a handsome looking lad in the PUA?
 
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TheWhiteBear said:
So what you are implying is that a homeless rag has an equal amount of chance compared to a handsome looking lad in the PUA?
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Yes. Many PUA started as homeless rag. Julien was couch surfing before he became an instructor. He was doing girls on his couch in a friend's place. He was having girls in public restrooms. That is PUA.

Tyler was a homeless rag when he started RSD. He was bunking with Mystery and Style.
 
4vibes said:
Yes. Many PUA started as homeless rag. Julien was couch surfing before he became an instructor. He was doing girls on his couch in a friend's place. He was having girls in public restrooms. That is PUA.
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OMFG!?!?!? Where do I sign up!!?!?! Oh wait, I don't have the talent of being a douche frat boy.
 
I seriously still can't figure out if you are the biggest troll or just a frat boy.
potato-happy-face.jpg

Take a look at this potato, this potato doesn't talk stupid.
Bears like potatoes like this, it's a nice potato.
Be like this potato.
 
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TheWhiteBear said:
I seriously still can't figure out if you are the biggest troll or just a frat boy.
potato-happy-face.jpg

Take a look at this potato, this potato doesn't talk stupid.
Bears like potatoes like this, it's a nice potato.
Be like this potato.
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PUA turns the whole world view upside down. The standard is you need $$$ to get girls. PUA say why need $$$. Girls are free. Just communicate in way they will understand. There so many ways to communicate with women. 90% of it is nonverbal. Its simple:. I'm a man and I want you.

The problem is most guys don't know what it is to be a man anymore. There are just too much garbage about man that is not true. You know you are a man when the women can't get enough of you. That is the true test. Anything else is garbage.
 
Well this will be my last post in this thread, you taking reminds me of this.
 
@raggae
P4P is an economic transition. It could $$$, or barter(a promise of economic benefits/career advancement). In Cosby's case it was companionship for career advancement. He is just the worse of P4P.
 
4vibes said:
@raggae
P4P is an economic transition. It could $$$, or barter(a promise of economic benefits/career advancement). In Cosby's case it was companionship for career advancement. He is just the worse of P4P.
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What meds are you on ?
 
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Damian said:
What meds are you on ?
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I guess you did not read the articles. The girls said they thought he could help their career when they chose to spend time with Cosby. They did not agree to sex but agree to see him. Some P4P just want someone to talk to. Cosby even agreed to help the girls with their career. An exchange of value took place.
 
In real life p4p (of which I've done A LOT), escorts and other sex workers don't care (and usually don't know) if the guy is powerful or not. They are not looking for and do not get any help with their careers (except to the extent that the money helps...often it is for education). And they may or may not be "vulnerable"; usually the customer has no direct way of knowing. They also don't care if a customer is rich or poor as long as he pays their fees and meets their standards for an acceptable client (clean enough, sober enough, unthreatening enough, sane appearing enough etc).

None of what @4vibes says about Cosby makes any sense at all in the context of p4p as it normally happens and takes place.

Fwiiw, I also don't regard Cosby as anything like a PUA (though *maybe* he thinks of himself that way); rather he *appears* (innocent in principle until proven...) to be a sexual predator and probable rapist. While I think many PUAs are shallow, lame, clueless and misogynist when it comes to women, I don't think they are doing anything nearly as bad as Cosby allegedly did. When they talk about techniques for "overcoming" LMR, they venture onto thin ice sometimes though.

-Ww
 
There are shades of P4P. You have the simplest: Straight cash. Then sugar daddies. Then you have Forest Gump's mom getting him a normal education where no money exchange hand but valuables were taken. The worse is promotion for sex. Cosby falls under that.
 
The 4th type is most evil. It does not stop at one time. Its on going. This type is a predator. He/she selects the weakest victim. It leads to rape. P4P with power are a threat to their employees. It takes just one lapse in judgement.
 
4vibes said:
PUA has no position of power to use to get women into compromising positions. P4P use $$$/power to get girls. Cosby used his position in the industry to get industry girls.
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For the most part, you are correct, Cosby preyed on "industry girls." However, in the article cited, the woman merely had the misfortune of attending the same university.

Hey, I don't especially blame PUA folks for their tactics and I don't condemn P4P folks for their purchasing power.

My litmus test, as written in another thread, in any relationship is this:

Has she has grown measurably in a positive direction during the relationship/become a "better" person?

Have I grown measurably in a positive direction during the relationship/become a "better" person?

Now, admittedly, in many PUA and P4P situations, the relationship is brief. So, additionally, I might add, Do both parties treat each other with honesty, integrity, and basic human respect? Is every attempt made to do no harm to each other?

Let's face it, humans, especially men, thrive on sex and will use any means necessary to achieve that goal.

A horny guy is apt to resort to tactics that primarily center on his own satisfaction. Yet, sex is, or should be, a mutually satisfying experience-one of equality rather than dominance, at least in a civilized society.

So, I don't condemn neither PUA nor P4P as long as every consideration is given to the values previously stated.

Of course, for me, this is all, for the most part, academic. I prefer the satisfaction and piece of mind I have in marriage. It's not for everyone, but works well for me.

Here's wishing that all will find the kind of relationships that benefit all the participants, whatever shape or form it takes.

One Love!
 
4vibes said:
There are shades of P4P. You have the simplest: Straight cash. Then sugar daddies. Then you have Forest Gump's mom getting him a normal education where no money exchange hand but valuables were taken. The worse is promotion for sex. Cosby falls under that.
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This is really too silly to discuss.

You can define words however pleases you of course, and it is all a game of semantics, but it is meaningless unless your definitions are recognized and used by the rest of the world...or at least some significant portion of it. And in this case they are not. For example, what you call "simple" p4p violates anti-prostitution laws in some places, but afaik, no one would even remotely consider exchanging sex for favors (e.g., Forrest Gump's mom) to be prostitution; no sane DA would charge her with prostitution. Much less, say one of Cosby's victims; completely different laws were probably violated in those cases. No one would say his victims were prostitutes because they hoped their careers might be advanced by his favor etc. In fact what he allegedly did is illegal even where p4p is legal. As far as I can see, you are just making things up to support an argument you already lost (whether you realize it or not). Cosby was not doing p4p; he is alleged to be a sexual predator, a VERY different thing from being a monger in every place and by ever normal or accepted definition and understanding, legal or otherwise, of both terms.

Fwiiw, I think @roots reggae was also wrong on this one. Cosby is also not a PUA by any normal definition/understanding of that term.

-Ww
 
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