Question About Pua In Countryside, And Eye-contact

[Solong]

Imo, this is an extremely reasonable point and deserves a lucid and direct answer.

To me one of the most startling and implausible aspects of PUA/gaming, at least the "cold" versions, is the the enormous amounts of time and effort said to be required just to meet women, the very first step in a long and complex sequence that leads to a significant relationship. It is unclear how intensive PUA/gamers even find the time for the rest of the process.

-Ww

On Wednesday night, picked up a woman from a club in Roppongi, within 30 minutes. Pal, pulled me there from Shibuya, to join up for beers.

I had "unlimited" sex (number times allowed to cum ;-) with a very good looking 27 year old woman several times Thursday morning (late night to morning time frame), and throughout Thursday. She left at around 5pm. We were both off for the holiday. We will hopefully meet up again next week.

Don't see how online or social circles could have got me sex any faster nor can see how P4P could have got me sex any "cheaper" or of relatively better quality. I have tried all other ways at one time or another.

I also don't see why it's an issue or waste of time for a man to talk to women he is attracted to, and in the way he prefers or sees fit. Now if the debate is over preferred methods to meet women, to each his own. Choose whichever you like and works best for you.

 

[4vibes]

And then you have the father of PUA: Ross Jeffries who claims 50%+ success rate. Basically as a PUA, if you get a date you f- close. If you don't, something you are doing is wrong: not enough investment from the girl and not enough kino. Beginner PUA can't get the date. Intermediate PUA can't f-close. It seems Japan is like a mature man picking up a very young girl: too much peer pressure. Ross advice for situation like that is same day f- close. Get the logistic right.

 

[Solong]

And then you have the father of PUA: Ross Jeffries who claims 50%+ success rate. Basically as a PUA, if you get a date you f- close. If you don't, something you are doing is wrong: not enough investment from the girl and not enough kino. Beginner PUA can't get the date. Intermediate PUA can't f-close. It seems Japan is like a mature man picking up a very young girl: too much peer pressure. Ross advice for situation like that is same day f- close. Get the logistic right.

Logistics is a highly underestimated element of "game". A lot of guys walk into situations or dates, with no clue whatsoever and winging it. Basically, leaving it up to the woman to almost chase him (as if she's suppose to have the testosterone) or decide everything, then such guys wonder what went wrong. Better to have a flexible plan or some clue on how you are going to close the deal, versus awkwardly and clumsily meandering about.

 

[John Chavers]

Interesting when it's about how much money you make and throw around so you don't have to pickup, it's normal conversation, but when it's about how much you're getting laid for free, it's a "humblebrag"

You misunderstand. My complaint is that you discount the opportunity cost of using PUA methods.

 

[4vibes]

PUA is about having a plan. Who ever succeed without a plan. Learning takes time. But it is a life skill that can be apply in other areas of life. How many times do you have to persuade others in a week or month? The majority of successful people are master persuaders. You look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. They are master persuaders. They know about creating value, getting investments/engagement and making it easy for others. That is PUA.

 

[4vibes]

I believe women love sex as much or more than us guys. They just have more social barriers than we do. It is our job to remove those barriers for them. PUA are experts at removing those barriers.

 

[Solong]

It's too much to ask for faith. This is not a religion or cult. Results are all that's required. Not sex, just a woman prepared to actually meet again as the result of a deliberate public approach.

As far as I can see there is an almost insurmountable qualitative difference between Japanese women met in cold approach situations and elsewhere.



I consider success to be making progress towards a goal. Not sex.

Statistics are an important means of keeping track of my progress and comparing methods, not a goal unto themselves. I don't see a problem with that.

I'm trying to meet women and attempt to start sexual relationships with them here, not just chat with random girls. If even the most basic requirement for inching towards this - that someone come out to meet me or is even just willing to communicate after parting - is practically unfulfillable then I would have trouble seeing what success or benefit I'm getting out of it, whilst it is certainly costing me a great deal of time and energy.

Only the secondary benefits of learning how to better strike up conversations with strangers have accrued, and I know I'm hardly the only guy who experiences these kinds of results.



It certainly depends. For average looking guys, these numbers might be optimistic. If we are talking about big name PUA who have a certain amount of credibility and verifiable experience, they seem to be reporting these kinds of extremely low success rates. Our own dear Sinapse claims ~10%, although even if this is to be believed I think a lot of qualifications were involved.

To get above this you certainly need to start considering a guy's looks and status, etc. Although in fairness, also that of the girl.



Efficiency is comparative. I think the point which needs to be made is that the same level of energy invested in other methods of meeting women might well yield higher returns.

m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLkByqVWFdHIsx6C645h3RZ0XaidZy3Aqd&params=OAFIAVgM&v=-c-rTyh1Zrs&mode=NORMAL


I don't know if this guy is legit, but he claims to have better than 1-5%.

Efficiency also depends on how it's counted. For instance, I count approach to sex. This is the most brutal way. Where many might count by contacts collected or dates went on.

So, 27 approaches and 9 contacts. Consequently, some might count that as a 35% efficiency rate. Others by dates, so if 3 dates, around 10% efficiency, while I only go by actual sex, so might come out to 3% to 5%.

Note- Though even in my most brutal way to count efficiency, some guys can be hitting efficiency numbers like 10% to 30%. Which can lead to a staggering amount of sex and women, through the accumulative effect over time, if they are going hard at it.

You have to ask a guy how he is coming up with his efficiency numbers.

 

[4vibes]

You have to ask a guy how he is coming up with his efficiency numbers.

According to the guy, if he gets a date it leads to f-close. If you a had chance to watch his vids, he initiated kino as soon as possible. The only reason he does not same day close is logistic or the girl just walk away. I would say he is a true PUA. He has the most disadvantages a guy can have and have over 30%+ success rate. All the other PUA out there have the looks they just need to approach and not blow themselves out. He is able to turn some 'no% girls(not interested) into f-close and all 'maybe' girls(passive/no sign of interest) into f-close. I would say if he improves his conversational skills his success rate would increase another 50% to almost 50% overall rate. The power of kino is underrated. His success is purely kino and social awareness.

 

[NormalGuy]

I brought them up, to show how it has long been debated by large circles of men, if women truly loved men for themselves versus what they can get from them.

Also, before you attack them, I suggest you study up on them. If you have a beef against them, you can bring that up to representatives directly. I only know of them, versus am one.

I would hardly call their membership a large circle of men if most people have never heard of them. 13,000 people in the internet age does not make anything big, it just means there's a website where disillusioned guys who can't get laid go to bitch about their terrible lives.

And I don't need to study up on them, you bought them into the conversation stating that they believe that "women don't actually love men", I just stated people believe all kinds of bullshit, which doesn't make it a valuable contribution (much like saying people believe the monarchy are really lizardmen)..

 

[Sinapse]

You misunderstand. My complaint is that you discount the opportunity cost of using PUA methods.

One might think that "lodging a complaint" where you subtly mention that you have tons of disposable income lying around and therefore can just buy your women could be described as a "humblebrag" or perhaps "complaintbrag" if we're making words up, so it just seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Ok so you mentioned you have money. I meet women who like me. Sounds like we're both doing well. So.. Where is the hate coming from? Live and let live.

 

[Manfreidi]

Deal. Stay off the other threads with this humblebrag nonsense and I'll avoid PUA.

Sure would be nice if we could filter out PUA and off-topic threads from the "New Posts" section in our profile settings.

Im sorry, there are no deals for you. You have nothing to bargain with. Your are now just a well recognised troll amongst all frequent readers of this forum. Have a nice day with all that money and all that time you gentle humblebrag.

 

[Ascent]

m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLkByqVWFdHIsx6C645h3RZ0XaidZy3Aqd&params=OAFIAVgM&v=-c-rTyh1Zrs&mode=NORMAL


I don't know if this guy is legit, but he claims to have better than 1-5%.

He just ignores questions about his overall conversion rate as far as I can see (so if he is approaching 100 women to get 1 date he could actually have a low "success rate" by the kinds of definition we were discussing here). Any charlatan who wants to drum up coaching or book sales can cherry-pick a few exceptionally smooth interactions and put the videos on YouTube to suit his purposes.

That he or others get rejected most of the time when approaching is obvious enough, and there is nothing wrong with this as such, but how much time and energy is needed to generate each encounter is the crucial issue. As the OP mentions, in his case the cold approach method is likely so inefficient with his environment and population of women that it may be unworkable, and in less extreme cases it may simply compare poorly to other methods.

 

[Solong]

He just ignores questions about his overall conversion rate as far as I can see (so if he is approaching 100 women to get 1 date he could actually have a low "success rate" by the kinds of definition we were discussing here). Any charlatan who wants to drum up coaching or book sales can cherry-pick a few exceptionally smooth interactions and put the videos on YouTube to suit his purposes.

That he or others get rejected most of the time when approaching is obvious enough, and there is nothing wrong with this as such, but how much time and energy is needed to generate each encounter is the crucial issue. As the OP mentions, in his case the cold approach method is likely so inefficient with his environment and population of women that it may be unworkable, and in less extreme cases it may simply compare poorly to other methods.

I do cold/direct approach. I find it highly efficient, and NO other method is more efficient at getting sex or dates with normal/regular women.

I can get 9 contacts in 3 hours, and get at least 3 dates out of this (often more). And sex can happen with 1 or more of the dates. So if sex with 2 dates, that's an even more highly efficient 3 hours.

If I attempt to do this online, I usually can't get dates as quickly and it's very random. It's unknown when a woman will select me or agree to a date. Often it requires a lot of messaging and site checking, which can easily consume many hours and days.

Furthermore, the online dating search and response time period isn't compressed, but random interactions throughout the entire day. Which can interfere with other activities.

Social circles is even worse. Now I have to coordinate with the group and deal with multiple personalities and group dynamics. The time to meet, is often very limited, as everyone can't usually meet but 1x a week. That's unless I'm in other group circles, which takes more time and more interactions.

Only paying for sex is comparable time wise, but then you are paying money for each sexual interaction. So where you gain in time, you lose in money. With normal/regular women, price of sex per each interaction usually goes down in time. Like she comes to your apartment or you to her's.

And not all P4P interactions are time efficient. Take going the Deai/Date cafe. Must get dressed, travel to, search for woman that's desired, negotiate costs, to hotel. And then the cost for each sexual interaction and hotel.

 

[Kegger]

I can get 9 contacts in 3 hours, and get at least 3 dates out of this (often more). And sex can happen with 1 or more of the dates. So if sex with 2 dates, that's an even more highly efficient 3 hours.

Can I clarify what you mean by contacts?

Do you mean you get the contact info from a woman, or does this mean you approach 9 women and get at least 3 dates?

 

[Solong]

Can I clarify what you mean by contacts?

Do you mean you get the contact info from a woman, or does this mean you approach 9 women and get at least 3 dates?

Was referring to contact info.

I've given a formula many times. 27 approaches (in 3 hours), 9 contacts, 3 dates, 1 sexual encounter.

If broken down to 1 hour, that would be 9 approaches, 3 contacts, and 1 date.

And I or veterans can do significantly better than that (after all, been doing such for years), but give it as a rule of thumb, as a framework of effort. Especially for newbies, who tend to be approach shy or lazy.

If you break it down, that's 3 contacts per hour. For myself personally, I'm often more efficient than that and can often get 3 contacts in around 6 approaches.

6 approachs, 3 contacts, 2 dates, 1 very likely/probable sex encounter. This also fluctuates over time, and numbers go up and down. Example- sometimes high strikeout in approaches, but higher hits in sex encounters on dates.

And hover around 15% efficiency (double-checked my notes). Some months and weeks better than others. Many "veterans" that I know, are between 5% to 30% efficient (if calculated in the most brutal way, approach to sex). Higher percentage guys, above 20%, were doing modeling, host work, etc... Totally not average joes, and very naturally gifted types to start with.

Above 5%, can be a ridiculous level of sex and women, due to accumulative effects over time if keeping a sustained effort every day.

Above 30% is extraordinary and would be Brad Pitt or Denzel Washington territory. None of my pals have ever achieved such a sustained level of efficiency, and a few are masters of pickup. Not every woman a man approaches, is available. Even then, what level of women is he dealing with? Playing with 10s, is a different ballpark than playing with 7s or 6s. For example, I'm not banging all 9s and 10s (which are hard to find anyway), if I tried that, my 15% ish efficiency would go far south real quick, and below 5% ish

 

[John Chavers]

Im sorry, there are no deals for you. You have nothing to bargain with. Your are now just a well recognised troll amongst all frequent readers of this forum.

 

[John Chavers]

I meet women who like me

That's not what I heard.

 

[Sinapse]

That's not what I heard.

It's flattering how fixated you are on me. Thanks boo

 

[Manfreidi]

I'm not sure if I have actually ever watched one of the videos that John has posted in various threads. . .

 

[meiji]

Back on topic, please, or we can lock this thread. thanks.

 

[Rickhhh]

I know this thread is getting old, but I just wanted to give an update on my experiences, vent a little frustration and ask for advice about texting.

So I approach several women a week in various situations. I've had it in my head that the woman here are conservative and need some sort of assurance that they can trust me or something. Well here's one frustrating thing that happened.

I met a Uni student, asking for directions. She took me to the place and we chatted along the way, and she was laughing a lot. It was closed, so we went back, chatting along the way. She then said she was meeting her mother and invited me to meet her mother. I chatted with her and her mother for about 10 minutes. Her mother eventually said "It would be good for you guys to learn language if you dated, right?" Or something along those lines. I told them the high school I work for, which is highly known in the city, and the mother has a friend who works there. So in my mind I thought at least she doesn't really see me as such a stranger any more.
The same damn thing happens. I send a message, she replies, then in my next message I ask if she'd like to eat out somewhere, she gives a lame excuse.

I can say that since the start of this thread, in all my day approaches, I haven't had anyone meet me out. Night game here brings low quality women into my life that I'd rather not meet anyway. Fucking frustrating.

I've also got to ask if I'm doing something wrong with texting. I've learned to use the phone to set dates only. Any guys out there finding the need to send more texts for a while to "warm her up" so to speak?

Sorry for the negativity.. just how I'm feeling in the moment!

 

[Solong]

I know this thread is getting old, but I just wanted to give an update on my experiences, vent a little frustration and ask for advice about texting.

So I approach several women a week in various situations. I've had it in my head that the woman here are conservative and need some sort of assurance that they can trust me or something. Well here's one frustrating thing that happened.

I met a Uni student, asking for directions. She took me to the place and we chatted along the way, and she was laughing a lot. It was closed, so we went back, chatting along the way. She then said she was meeting her mother and invited me to meet her mother. I chatted with her and her mother for about 10 minutes. Her mother eventually said "It would be good for you guys to learn language if you dated, right?" Or something along those lines. I told them the high school I work for, which is highly known in the city, and the mother has a friend who works there. So in my mind I thought at least she doesn't really see me as such a stranger any more.
The same damn thing happens. I send a message, she replies, then in my next message I ask if she'd like to eat out somewhere, she gives a lame excuse.

I can say that since the start of this thread, in all my day approaches, I haven't had anyone meet me out. Night game here brings low quality women into my life that I'd rather not meet anyway. Fucking frustrating.

I've also got to ask if I'm doing something wrong with texting. I've learned to use the phone to set dates only. Any guys out there finding the need to send more texts for a while to "warm her up" so to speak?

Sorry for the negativity.. just how I'm feeling in the moment!

Some people want to hide the reality, but there is a lot of quiet and "polite" xenophobia, prejudice, and backwardness. A lot of it can come from older Japanese who are set in their ways or thinking, or others in her group or friends. They are afraid or prejudiced, so push their friends or younger people to be backward minded too. To include telling them bullshit horror and negative stories about foreigners. They will smile in your face and act polite, but then be a totally different way behind your back or when you aren't around. " Abunai, yabai, kowai, charai..."

The only way to really get around this is to learn to identify and meet up with more open-minded, international, or independent-minded Japanese. This is a skill and luck. You have to learn how to read the facial expressions, body language, and situations.

I wouldn't have started a conversation asking for directions, as you then appear more like a tourist. And if you continue the conversation, after being given or shown a direction, people tend to get suspicious of your intent. Arguably, better to start the conversation: asking for language help, about something she's wearing, some object or something happening around you. In this way, the conversation is focused on you and her, and interest in her is more clear versus appearing as a con-man or creepy. Learning to start natural conversations takes some practice for various guys, but worth it.

Meeting her mother right away seems like the "kiss of death" for starting a relationship. This has happened to me and other guys I know, often by accident, and it never works out. Seems as if something negative is or the daughter doesn't want the mother to know she is sexually active or her sex friend.

Meeting the mother or parents is usually further down the line, like after you had sex and have been dating at least a few weeks. This is where you are clearly the boyfriend. However, if she wants to keep you as a sex-friend, she won't usually introduce you to her mother. So you can see how you meeting her mom right away can be awkward for some women.

It's not a matter

 

[Rickhhh]

Thanks for the advice, Solong.

I've seen a lot of your posts and have an impression you're quite experienced! I actually started out with the direct approach. Didn't work for me (at least in this city) and read up on these forums and a few others from guys who were having better success with indirect approaches, asking for directions, etc (it might even be in this thread where I state how I dislike going indirect as it feels unnatural). If you can attest, as a guy with lost of experience, that going more direct works, I'd gladly adjust my game to that. Just a part of me feels like I gotta get out of this city if I want my game to work (but again I haven't really tried it in Tokyo so it might even be the same!)

She actually was meeting her mom and said "wanna meet her?" kind of in a joking way...I thought it was a bad idea, but thought then again that I'm pretty good at talking to the older folks and might help her not keep me in the stranger category.

How about texting? How many texts do you send before setting a date? The type of girls I'm approaching are what I'd call quality women... students, workers, etc.

 

[static]

Thanks for the advice, Solong.

I've seen a lot of your posts and have an impression you're quite experienced! I actually started out with the direct approach. Didn't work for me (at least in this city) and read up on these forums and a few others from guys who were having better success with indirect approaches, asking for directions, etc (it might even be in this thread where I state how I dislike going indirect as it feels unnatural). If you can attest, as a guy with lost of experience, that going more direct works, I'd gladly adjust my game to that. Just a part of me feels like I gotta get out of this city if I want my game to work (but again I haven't really tried it in Tokyo so it might even be the same!)

She actually was meeting her mom and said "wanna meet her?" kind of in a joking way...I thought it was a bad idea, but thought then again that I'm pretty good at talking to the older folks and might help her not keep me in the stranger category.

How about texting? How many texts do you send before setting a date? The type of girls I'm approaching are what I'd call quality women... students, workers, etc.

Not Solong, but hey I'll throw in my two cents. =)

Direct vs indirect is all about what's right for you as a person. One of the most inspirational sights I ever saw was a French guy with me at a HUB. We were paying our bill and he looked straight at the waitress and said "Wow, you're beautiful" she blushes "In my country, it's a sin not to tell a beautiful girl that she's beautiful." But it was the way he said it. It was totally congruent with his personality type, zero hesitation, totally owning the frame. I've tried the same approach with varying results. Think of it like repeating a joke you heard from a different friend and getting a vastly different reaction. Thing is, direct approach, indirect, strong, soft, etc; these are all just tools in your arsenal. There is no universal tool that fits all situations, there are right tools for the right situation. The thing that experience is really going to give you in the long run is being able to tell you which tool you use should based on the situation you're in, and the vibe you're getting from the girl.

From what I've heard from other gamers, Hiroshima is a bit out there, but Osaka isn't that far away, nor is Kyoto. Those two, I know for a fact are big, thriving cities. Maybe take a weekend, grab a hotel and hit the streets/bars/clubs every so often? Don't fall into the trap of thinking that a girl in Osaka won't come visit in the boonies, there are plenty that are more than willing to for a guy she likes.

Texting as well, mileage may vary, but it's all about what works for you. I know guys who only do the equivalent of caveman grunt line exchanges, or guys like me where we have long, drawn out conversations over line that go into the wee hours of the morning. Sinapse said it earlier: the initial interaction is going to make more of a bearing on your date chances than anything you do over text message, also, whatever's most congruent with your style. I don't talk to girls massively over line because it's what I think I need to get the girl, I do it because I want to do it. Guys who rarely talk over line probably hate talking on line, so they don't do it. Likewise, it depends on the girl, too. A girl who is a societal 10 (AV models, gyaru, hostesses, actresses, etc) are probably bombarded by messages and likely get annoyed if a guy is messaging her too much; adjust accordingly. You can typically figure it out based on how quickly she replies. Some guys adopt the rule that if she takes 3 days to reply, you should wait 3 days before you respond. Personally, I consider this a waste of time and kinda grand-standing. "I have to wait 3 days to reply otherwise she's going to think I'm a loser that isn't busy and I must maintain the image that I'm super popular, busy, productive individual." There is a guy I know that counts characters to make sure he doesn't send more letters than she sends him (hardcore, but he's tried many different things to figure out what works for him)...... Personally, I reply when I'm able to because I do have a full and satisfying life, and natural works best for me.

IMO, get away from the concept of rules or strategies, or any type of numerical, results oriented thinking. As you get better at game, you'll reach a point where you're either so attached to your rules that you stagnate, or you shed them and keep advancing.

 

[DocMcStuffins]

Rickhhh, on an individual case you can never really know. It's possible that her mother really liked you, and that was a big turn off for her.