Strategies For A Short Visit

[GoldenDalton]

Oh, this has been extraordinarily time-consuming indeed. I have spent hours and hours writing messages in Japanese and triple-checking them for accuracy. On the plus side, it's given me some good writing practice. On the even-more-plus side, I've got five dates definitely lined up now (well, let's say "definitely" for now, until I inevitably get stood up once or twice) with probably more on the way.



On the subject of P4P vs. me voluntarily shouldering this truly crushing burden (I'm not exaggerating), I suppose that at the moment, I just want a bit of what so many women want -- attention and validation. Frankly I've got a pretty strong "feminine side" to my character; a great deal of empathy and a need for closeness and real feeling. Oh, and that other thing too, of course.



Actually, Scotty, I wasn't being fair. The greatest risk is not my female co-workers, it's my holier-than-thou born-again male colleague who would not hesitate to save my soul from sin by telling my wife, etc.

The hyper-religious beta types are the worst. Dressing up sour grapes and resentful cockblocking in religious garb is just sad.

 

[enjoykousai]

@Iron Giant

I was reading through some of the old threads here last nite and there was a guy in Japan earlier this year in a similar situation to yourself who set up a bunch of dates before he arrived. He used Japan Cupid and Metropolis I think. He got his end away ok but met some fruit cakes too and all the women were well past their sell-by date.

 

[matt_j]

The hyper-religious beta types are the worst. Dressing up sour grapes and resentful cockblocking in religious garb is just sad.

Man, that's rich. I agree, but come on, it's too funny to throw the "beta" tag around----as if adherents of "Roosh" and PUA crap aren't the epitome of betas.

If you're an alpha male, you don't need that shit. You have it.

Though, you may want to pay at times---way easier.

Anyway...

 

[IronGiant]

On the subject of logistics, the one big problem with that fabulous and peculiar Japanese institution, the love hotel, is that it absolutely deprives you of all plausible deniability.

So I'm looking at alternatives. One idea that just occurred to me is the karaoke box. Does anybody have a lead on any Tokyo karaoke boxes (or, even better, any CHAINS of karaoke boxes) without security cameras and/or monitoring?

 

[TheDutchElm]

If you're an alpha male, you don't need that shit. You have it.

The king who must say "I am king" is no king at all.

 

[Hamerare]

On the subject of logistics, the one big problem with that fabulous and peculiar Japanese institution, the love hotel, is that it absolutely deprives you of all plausible deniability.

So I'm looking at alternatives. One idea that just occurred to me is the karaoke box. Does anybody have a lead on any Tokyo karaoke boxes (or, even better, any CHAINS of karaoke boxes) without security cameras and/or monitoring?

A karaoke box is not a bad option bcoz u can get food and drink there, yur won space together and u can get a feel 4 ur d8 but not a gr8 place 2 try and do 2 much in case the waiter pops in. Most j-girls will be very aware and wary of this so I wouldnt go there 2 try and close. Big Echo is one big karaoke box chain but these places r everywhere

A cheaper place than a love hotel where u wont get disturbed is an internet cafe or Manga Kissaten they are everywhere and u can do all-niters. Young couples especially hi skoolerz often use them to get quietly intim8. U r talking only 1600 for a 6 hour pack at nite

Internet d8ng is a very very frustr8ng hobby and I'm not just talking Japan here. No matter what "other people" may say or boast, it is always much more miss than hit. Even if an attractive girl shows up, there is no guarantee u will get n e where. In Japan from my experience, difficult 2 meet a sub-25 year old this way and very often they are much older than that. Been a long time since I did it and I would b inclined 2 say or at least hint in advance what I had in mind of an evening 2 save myself time and dosh i.e. "what time do u have to be home by?" or "can u hold ur liquor?"

But of course its all up to u in the end. Good luck Iron Giant u will need it bro

 

[IronGiant]

Thanks! I very much agree about the age situation in internet dating, at least so far. I'm looking at most of my dates being in the 39 to 44 range, but hey, that's still substantially younger than me, and frankly Japanese women can quite often be hot at those ages. (Take some of my wife's friends for example. And - aw heck - take my wife as another example. I'm sure that other guy really enjoyed her all those nights last year when she said she was meeting her girlfriends. Until HIS fiancée called ME to complain, that is. He really looked like a sick puppy when she dragged him to a meeting with me in a cafe to apologize. Good thing he did, too, cause I always carry here in the States.)

Also, since this is AM we're talking about, the married women I'm messaging (and I'm only messaging the married ones) sort of by definition pretty much have to be old enough to have (1) gotten married and then (2) become disillusioned and then (3) decided to do something about it. Not a lot of under-25s in that category.

The youngest one I have in play at the moment is a 31-year-old who seems to be crazy for some new experiences and who has sent me some fantastic photos. Although I suppose she may be just an exhibitionist - I guess we'll see. She's chubby but charming and claims that she really wants to try out a foreigner.

There's also a 52-year-old whose online wit has me simply intrigued. I don't know what she looks like but many 52-year-olds in Japan could pass for 40 in the US. And the plumbing is the same no matter what the age.

 

[Cobra_X30]

I'm sure that other guy really enjoyed her all those nights last year when she said she was meeting her girlfriends. Until HIS fiancée called ME to complain, that is. He really looked like a sick puppy when she dragged him to a meeting with me in a cafe to apologize. Good thing he did, too, cause I always carry here in the States.)

... and why do you care about "plausible deniability". It seem to me that you shouldn't be afraid of your wife catching you in this situation. To be entirely honest... this exact scenario is why I don't have a wife to worry about. I gave her the boot after catching her with another guy. I have had a great time dating and things keep getting better while her situation gets worse. I was dating a 24 year old med student a few months back and she was dating a broke 56 year old dude who looks like a white prune with eyes.

 

[Goiter]

I will say this, I picked up a couple of 50 year olds in AM over the last year that were absolutely filthy sex maniacs. That set can be hot and the plumbing completely works. Both of them were keen to try ANYTHING.

 

[IronGiant]

... and why do you care about "plausible deniability". It seem to me that you shouldn't be afraid of your wife catching you in this situation.

Here the term "plausible deniability" doesn't have to do with the woman (or me) being afraid of being caught in an affair. It has to do with being able to get her to enter the location where I intend to engage in further physical escalation. If we were going back to my room at a regular hotel (which I can't) then I would be able to say it was "to get a drink," or "just so we can talk for a little bit," or "to watch some television." If we were going to a karaoke box, then I would be able to say it was "to sing karaoke." All this would permit the escalation to proceed gradually, so that she would not have to make a major yes-or-no decision at any point and could later convince herself that it had "just happened" or that I "did it to her." A love hotel has no alternative innocuous reason to exist. Walking up to the door of a love hotel might seem to her like crossing the Rubicon.

And while it might seem like this shouldn't matter to someone I meet on an affair-focused web site, it strikes me that even a woman who is setting out to cheat might have scruples about going to bed on the first date. Which is why I'm trying to calculate just how to best overcome any such scruples. My time will be short so in most cases it will be either a one-night stand or nothing.

I've just got a few more planning days left, I'll be in-country this weekend. It looks like I should have seven dates or so during the week, with most of the weekend reserved for possible follow-ups.

 

[Hamerare]

Here the term "plausible deniability" doesn't have to do with the woman (or me) being afraid of being caught in an affair. It has to do with being able to get her to enter the location where I intend to engage in further physical escalation. If we were going back to my room at a regular hotel (which I can't) then I would be able to say it was "to get a drink," or "just so we can talk for a little bit," or "to watch some television." If we were going to a karaoke box, then I would be able to say it was "to sing karaoke." All this would permit the escalation to proceed gradually, so that she would not have to make a major yes-or-no decision at any point and could later convince herself that it had "just happened" or that I "did it to her." A love hotel has no alternative innocuous reason to exist. Walking up to the door of a love hotel might seem to her like crossing the Rubicon.

And while it might seem like this shouldn't matter to someone I meet on an affair-focused web site, it strikes me that even a woman who is setting out to cheat might have scruples about going to bed on the first date. Which is why I'm trying to calculate just how to best overcome any such scruples. My time will be short so in most cases it will be either a one-night stand or nothing.

I've just got a few more planning days left, I'll be in-country this weekend. It looks like I should have seven dates or so during the week, with most of the weekend reserved for possible follow-ups.

Keep us informed of ur adventures bro this is interesting stuff n there is sweet FA going down in my life at the moment

 

[TheDutchElm]

"Would you like to come up and see my etchings?"

^ Always a sure thing.

 

[Solong]

@Scotty

I'm constantly in the situation that you speak of, and are many guys, as do a lot of online and pickup. Even harder, I will take ladies to happening bars and swinger parties, and all "fake covers" come off.

You are correct that most women need some plausible deniabilty, the KEY is often an intermediate spot.

In PUA, this is part of "geographical escalation" or bouncing a woman to more romantic spots.

1) Take a woman to a well lit and "safe" spot, like a restaurant. The point is to build verbal comfort and rapport, while throwing out test questions/stories and feels.

2) Then take her to a DIMLY lit/dark romantic spot. Lighting and seating is key.

This is a bar, club, or even restaurant where you can hug and/or kiss her. Semi-private is preferable or where other people are also being romantic.

The key is tongue KISS her. Don't get crazy or excessively feel her, just do it enough that you know physically that she is into you. It's a huge DTF indicator in PUA lingo.

Note- You can skip the 1st spot and start the date at the 2nd spot or even take a shot of having her come directly to your house, but this depends on the e-mail rapport that you have established. Depends on your confidence level. The more confident you are about her willingness, the less spots you need to bounce her to.

3) Take some place you can have sex.

The key here is that it should be somewhat near the 2nd place. This is because many women get horny and then get out of the mood quickly. Once you start tongue kissing and/or feeling her up, then it's often best to go for sex within 20 to 30 minutes.

From how it went from the 2nd location, taking her to a hotel, stairway, bathroom, happening bar, etc... are all possible. It's based on how horny she has got and how comfortable she is with you.

Note- With Japanese women, don't make going to the hotel or your place into a big dramatic deal. Play it down and be cool about it.

Often happens because guys get scared and nervous. The woman senses your fear, then she freaks out too. Tell her to just follow you and be unspecific about the place.

This point is a strong difference between Western and Japanese women. Usually, Western women and especially over 25, are more mature and handle being upfront about sex better. Where many Japanese women tend to get hysterical or paranoid at a much higher frequency. The exceptions are usually more Westernized or :experienced with Westerners" Japanese women.

If you take her out on a date, it's usually better to have a Japanese woman follow your lead to the 3rd spot more non-verbally (head nod, raised eyebrow), and avoid over talking about it.

 

[matt_j]

So, lemme see if I understand this correctly. You got some fucking skank to go home with you and you banged her. Emphasis on skank. Which comes easy and natural to, well, anyone who isn't a fucking git. Big deal. Yet, you need the play by play psychoanalytical horseshit to justify what exactly? It's just creepy and fucking weird.

Sad.

 

[Solong]

So, lemme see if I understand this correctly. You got some fucking skank to go home with you and you banged her. Emphasis on skank. Which comes easy and natural to, well, anyone who isn't a fucking git. Big deal. Yet, you need the play by play psychoanalytical horseshit to justify what exactly? It's just creepy and fucking weird.

Sad.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

1) Nearly all women like sex. This doesn't make women skanks.

2) Trying to shame women for liking sex by calling them skanks, sluts, whores, etc... Doesn't stop women from wanting to have sex, rather it just makes them sneaky about it or cheat behind a guy's back while portraying a fake image.

3) A lot of people are socially awkward, sexually repressed, or confused by the opposite sex.

So clarifying different approaches can be very helpful.

4) Who is trying to justify what?

5) Taking women on dates is pretty normal.

 

[Hamerare]

@Iron Giant

Ur problem is that u have been outta the game too long

Ur not trying 2 bang a teen virgin here but a mature experienced woman who has seen at least 1 dick b4. U got no idea how far they r traveling 2 meet u. They r not meeting u 4 a free meal n a peck on the cheek

Just agogo 4 it. Good chance they will suggest the love hotel n e way.

 

[meiji]

So, lemme see if I understand this correctly. You got some fucking skank to go home with you and you banged her. Emphasis on skank. Which comes easy and natural to, well, anyone who isn't a fucking git. Big deal. Yet, you need the play by play psychoanalytical horseshit to justify what exactly? It's just creepy and fucking weird.

Sad.

Let's try to be a little more considerate and constructive, shall we? If you don't like a thread or a particular user, there's forum tools to not see that information anymore (unlatch thread/ignore user), which might in the future keep you from resort to judgmental name-calling. Feel free to message me or any of the other moderators if you are having issues finding these forum tools, or if you have any other issues. Thanks.

 

[John Chavers]

The king who must say "I am king" is no king at all.

I too have seen Game of Thrones.

 

[Cobra_X30]

Here the term "plausible deniability" doesn't have to do with the woman (or me) being afraid of being caught in an affair. It has to do with being able to get her to enter the location where I intend to engage in further physical escalation.
I've just got a few more planning days left, I'll be in-country this weekend. It looks like I should have seven dates or so during the week, with most of the weekend reserved for possible follow-ups.

Sorry... I jumped to a really dumb conclusion here. I was thinking you planned to meet the ladies at a restaurant nearby a hotel that you could book in advance. I also noticed that there are apartments in Tokyo that can be rented for the week.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Man, that's rich. I agree, but come on, it's too funny to throw the "beta" tag around----as if adherents of "Roosh" and PUA crap aren't the epitome of betas.

If you're an alpha male, you don't need that shit. You have it.

Though, you may want to pay at times---way easier.

Anyway...

I'm sure you don't want to have a big discussion, but you have brought up an issue I think is important.
I don't really care about being an alpha male. Even with getting laid- I'd rather pay and enjoy the rest of my time.

I use the term because it's so accurate- I don't know of a better word to describe male "rabbits." "R-Selected" is mostly accurate, but it isn't well- known and it does a great disservice to those " betas" who aren't naturally that way, but have been brow- beaten into it by decades of Marxist indoctrination. . I use it frequently because " betas," are so culturally destructive. To hell with getting laid- there are social norms to care for and ancestors to live up to. The " betas" are those men who seek to use subversion for scraps of female approval, instead of competing in the biologically- normative contest.

And if anyone knows " beta" it's me-having probably been the most pathetic beta who ever posted here-for reasons I won't go into. But this is something that goes beyond sexual dynamics- for me the " manosphere" is one relatively small, but still important refutation of Marxism- attacking feminism-which is Marx applied to sexuality.


Also, from the mouth of the greatest sage of the era: these hos ain't loyal.

 

[GoldenDalton]

So, lemme see if I understand this correctly. You got some fucking skank to go home with you and you banged her. Emphasis on skank. Which comes easy and natural to, well, anyone who isn't a fucking git. Big deal. Yet, you need the play by play psychoanalytical horseshit to justify what exactly? It's just creepy and fucking weird.

Sad.

For the majority of men it isn't easy ti consistently date attractive, young women without paying. These tips are helpful- especially considering the cultural nuances that may be unknown to an outsider.

Consistent getting laid is hard for some guys. These posts are helpful considering the disinformation a lot of guys are taught in Western societies. Especially since it's helps analytical guys who might not be socially-savvy, and/ or genetically blessed.

Edit: sorry to hijack the topic.

 

[Solong]

Man, that's rich. I agree, but come on, it's too funny to throw the "beta" tag around----as if adherents of "Roosh" and PUA crap aren't the epitome of betas.

If you're an alpha male, you don't need that shit. You have it.

Though, you may want to pay at times---way easier.

Anyway...

I had overlooked this, so just reading it now.

I disagree with the concept of "just having it". And maybe this is where the disconnect is coming from. I welcome debate about this.

1) It can be a guy is unusually good looking, very popular/famous, or clearly has a lot of money.

However, all those would be circumstances beyond the average guy.

It's ludicrous to expect the average guy to possess any of those traits in order to easily pickup on women who don't have any such traits either. And anyway, it seems like some advocate that such a high level guy date down and under his level.

And if she is exceptionally pretty, famous, or rich than the guy using such leverage can have no advantage.

2) There seems to be a style of thinking, where men should use the feminine tactic of waiting for someone to talk with them.

It's like in the minds of some, men being assertive or proactive in any way is wrong. I think this comes from twisted feminist ideology, and it's purpose is not helpful to men.

Waiting for women to talk to you and holding up walls with your back is NOT an Alpha male trait. It's strange how there is confusion on this. Alpha males will very much take the initiative or be proactive, as this is part of having leadership and dominant qualities. Beta males would very much be in fear and make excuses for inaction. Of course, I don't think is it so black and white, and there is a lot of room for being a mix of both.

3) There is a belief that any system or method of picking up women is wrong or cheating.

This is often hypocritical feminine thinking. Many women wear makeup, push up bras, do plastic surgery, and have all kinds of popular rules for dealing with men from magazines and books. Why can't men have their methods too? Why would men having methods be wrong, but all the slick things that women do be right?

4) Since when does a person know everything since birth?

Talking to women is a learning process. What works and what doesn't work is also a learning process that will lead to methods and styles.

Would it not be intelligent for a man to analyze how his dates with women went and figure out a system or method that works best for him? Now think about this over many years (10, 15, 20 years) of dating women. If anything, to not come up with some type of system or favorite methods would be very odd, because it likely means the guy has learned nothing or given up.

5) Paying is not always necessarily easier or more convenient.

If you have a group of regular and normal women that can see you for sex, then that can be more convenient. Once setup up, you can schedule meeting many women at your place or hers.

Pickup can be more time consuming at the beginning or have way more emotional baggage, but once a guy has established a woman as a "regular" or sexual relationship, it can be vastly less expensive and much more emotionally satisfying than P4P. On the flip, P4P can be more time efficient and less drama. A key difference is pickup and creating multiple relationships often takes skill that many guys haven't learned or don't take time to develop.

And there is a good argument that paying also isn't alpha male, unless he is rich and the money very trivial. Very much depends on the guy, situation, his budget, views on cost effectiveness, mood, etc... Related to this is the quality of sex and type of sex that a guy seeks or finds satisfying.

Keep in mind that many P4P provider women are themselves doing both non-P4P and P4P, as they can have boyfriends, husbands, are bi-sexual so have girlfriends, etc... It's not all one way or the other.

 

[TheDutchElm]

1) It can be a guy is unusually good looking, very popular/famous, or clearly has a lot of money.

However, all those would be circumstances beyond the average guy.

The thing I find ridiculous about the "manosphere" is the assertion that if one is not a male supermodel or rich as hell, the only way to get reliably laid is to treat women like machines that have to be programmed to drop their panties. I'm sure it works some of the time (probably more often with women who have low self esteem or live in a culture that undervalues them), but since you mention Marxism, the dialectic tone of the entire PUA argument seems strangely familiar- it's dogmatic. If you didn't score, you didn't do XYZ hard enough/smooth enough/well enough. Nevermind the possibility that an intelligent woman will see through your mechanistic negging and painfully scripted body language.

Every time I hear this, it sounds like marketing for PUA guides to make guys with zero game think they can work any woman like a sudoku puzzle and wake up next to her. Ain't gonna happen.

And just as a disclaimer (since it seems to come up frequently), I am not impinging on anyone's right to give their opinion by stating this. I'm merely expressing my own. We just happen to disagree. Strongly.

 

[TheDutchElm]

Also, I want to point out that there is nothing in mainstream feminism that asserts that men can't be proactive in approaching women (women by-and-large ARE more passive and prefer to be approached). However, "proactive" doesn't mean harassing women on the subway. Or in a dark alley. Or in an otherwise empty hotel elevator at 4am. Those may be extreme examples, but the point is this: butting in when it should be clear that your advances are not welcome is not "proactive". It's rude and frequently threatening.

Imagine if everywhere you went, gay men constantly hit on you while you were trying to get on with your life and you'll have some idea how annoying this constant PUA crap can be for women. There is a time and a place for casual hook-ups. But the extent to which a lot of PUAs take these techniques ("watch my YouTube video where I harass these women in the park and get them to smile nervously! See? It's easy!") is ridiculous and contributes to female distrust of men in general.

 

[TheDutchElm]

This is often hypocritical feminine thinking. Many women wear makeup, push up bras, do plastic surgery, and have all kinds of popular rules for dealing with men from magazines and books. Why can't men have their methods too?

It's quite interesting that you mention women's magazines and books, since my female friends uniformly laugh at how abysmal their advice tends to be. If you can see through a woman's caked-on, over-the-top makeup, there are plenty of women who can see through a PUA routine.