Strategies For A Short Visit

[GoldenDalton]

1) Any good PUA doesn't expect all women to respond positively or as expected to his approaches.

It's more that he starts a conversation and sees where it goes.

2) I haven't seen where advocates of PUA has defined the motivation of all women as sinister.

And women, just like men, can indeed be sinister. Treating women equally, means also holding them accountable for their actions too. All women are not fairy good girl princesses either.

3) Good PUAs will often get good responses from women, more often than not.

There is a disconnect here, where it's not understood that a PUA is not trying to anger or upset a woman. Good PUAs want positive responses to his approaches and his methods will ADAPT until he is getting better.

This is a pertinent point. Most women aren't sinister, nor are they evil. Most people are relatively moral ( in my opinion- I am sn optimist). Wanting to maximize your reproductive success, and your sex life, isn't evil. That's the whole point in my opinion. It's just that you have one side which wants to assert that it is evil when men do it. A woman giving men her A game isn't wrong, but it somehow is for men.

This goes beyond sex- it erodes first world social ties. Just a few months ago lost a good friend to a suicide prompted by divorce- a totally inequitable one produced by the sick system in the U. S. He was a much better man than 99 percent. He pulled a two year old out of a burning car in Fallujah. He did not deserve his fate.

Our natural, assertive, dominant will isnt evil- it's the opposite- it builds civilization. Once the decline is finished this will be evident to those coming after.

 

[TheDutchElm]

There is a disconnect here, where it's not understood that a PUA is not trying to anger or upset a woman. Good PUAs want positive responses to his approaches and his methods will ADAPT until he is getting better.

I understand this sentiment and totally support it. It's the "us versus them" attitude and the more-than-a-little-cocky schadenfreude of some men who want to retroactively punish women who shut them down when they were young and/or inexperienced when they try to explain away a little too much female psychology by relying on very conservative greed-based models of gender relations (e.g., men just want sex, women just want resources).

 

[Solong]

Let's be clear that we're not talking about being approached in the park to inquire as to the time of day. Appearing in public is not an invitation to ANY activity another person wishes to impose. It's one thing to give a stranger the time and quite another to engage in a conversation that, let's be frank, most women comprehend the aim of.

Men disproportionately do most of the hitting on. That in itself isn't a bad thing. But once again I invite you to imagine a scenario where you're constantly approached by gay men who "just want to have a little chit-chat" when you have a pretty good sense of their angle.

But here is the thing though. I don't normally get approached by gay men, because I don't give out a vibe where they would want to. Now if I gave off gay mannerisms and dressed in known gay fashions and styles, then I'm arguably seeking their attention. And guess what? I may come on the gaydar of such men and get approached.

Adult heterosexual women, are managing the signals and body language they are giving out. Many intelligent and mature women know exactly what they are doing. And they know that their signals may be picked up on by heterosexual males. A lot of women even want the attention.

More often than not, the issue is the woman doesn't like the man who approached her because she considers him ugly or beneath her level. In that case, it's usually simple. Disapprove of the approach or offer. Make a disgusted face, ignore, wave the hand, etc... Nobody is saying any woman is obligated to respond or cater to an approach.

Same for me with other guys. Dude approaching me doesn't have to be gay, just wants to talk business. I don't have to oblige him.

Maybe you are missing the point of being social or anti-social. I can dismiss approaches in a friendly way. Even if I don't and react overly negative, I don't have the special privilege of saying don't approach me in a public space. If I think that way, I should consider moving into a tent in the middle of the woods. Even then, should I get angry at the animals or insects that cross my path?

 

[GoldenDalton]

That's a bit of an equivocation. I'm not implying that gender isn't a meaningful concept (though gender-queer and gender unaffiliated people do exist despite their genetic sex).

PUA asserts a universal gender essentialism as its basis for behavior in heterosexual interactions, but although it does work (I've admitted as much earlier), it doesn't always work or even MOSTLY work. A 10-30% pull rate is not a strategy that speaks to essential gendered qualities when the other 70-90% of encounters with women are failures. What's up with those women if the gender essentialism of PUA is true?

There have been specious associations between sociobiology and history's demons from both the left and the right. I find that more of this comes from the far right nowadays to be honest. Mostly because we're actually getting GOOD at biology and human behavior, but the right wants to avoid any implication that human beings might not have essential control over every conscious thought that enters their heads (c.f., homophobes getting erections when you show them gay porn...lol). But I'll concede that point since there is still a sizable vocal left that wants to go entirely the other way and assert that every person is a blank slate: an equally false assertion. There are biological differences between men and women that we cannot ignore. I simply think that PUA takes this to an extreme form of armchair philosophy in an effort to contend that it has all the answers that will turn you into an adonis at the bar. And it's a view that I find curiously hostile to mainstream feminism when my experiences with women have spanned a wide range of attitudes rather than what is monolithically asserted by PUA as some kind of super-selective penis repellant.

This may just have to be chocked up to different experiences. My experience is that it is fairly dead on. At least it's more accurate than any alternative I've encountered.

It's not as though I conceive of myself as a victim. It's ironically out of compassion for guys that I argue what I argue. No one can tell me that being 6'2" isn't a more or less objective advantage when dealing with women. I know this because I am that height and have consistently out-completed shorter men. Those shorter men need to be given the right information and aided as much as possible in my opinion. We have to stand by our brothers. That's what's informing my perspective.

 

[TheDutchElm]

But here is the thing though. I don't normally get approached by gay men, because I don't give out a vibe where they would want to. Now if I gave off gay mannerisms and dressed in known gay fashions and styles, then I'm arguably seeking their attention. And guess what? I may come on the gaydar of such men and get approached.

Slightly missing the point of the exercise. Imagine you were approached even when you didn't want to be and/or weren't expecting to be. If this happened over and over and OVER, how do you think your attitude would change over time? I'm not saying rudeness isn't rude. I'm asking you to consider a different context to the one you are accustomed.

Our natural, assertive, dominant will isnt evil- it's the opposite- it builds civilization. Once the decline is finished this will be evident to those coming after.

I really don't think this is a good thing just because it's historically been our attitude. We've historically (as a race) been extremely violent and that's on the decline for a number of reasons that can't be attributed to our genetic makeup. It would be foolish to think this was not a positive development. Similarly I think the decline of gender essentialist views that place the man in an aggressive, dominant posture with regard to women has done plenty of demonstrable harm and we'll be better off getting that under control if it means men respect women as people more than they did in the past. That said, I'd be a fool to think we as men won't still end up hitting on women in bars 100x more often than they do on us.

 

[TheDutchElm]

@GoldenDalton

Perhaps the PUA methods you use are more effective than other things you've tried in the past. Fair enough. I agree your and my mileage varies. I am sure there are many factors we don't know about each other that might explain some of those differences. But my point about success and failure rates is that while the rates for PUA may be impressive to some people, PUA *rationalizations* for those strategies are far from saying anything universal about female sexual psychology *because* the success rate is still not even close to a sure thing.

 

[TheDutchElm]

In conclusion, I'm glad I lied about leaving the conversation. I think we've wound this down pretty cordially despite our initial differences and/or misunderstandings.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Slightly missing the point of the exercise. Imagine you were approached even when you didn't want to be and/or weren't expecting to be. If this happened over and over and OVER, how do you think your attitude would change over time? I'm not saying rudeness isn't rude. I'm asking you to consider a different context to the one you are accustomed.




I really don't think this is a good thing just because it's historically been our attitude. We've historically (as a race) been extremely violent and that's on the decline for a number of reasons that can't be attributed to our genetic makeup. It would be foolish to think this was not a positive development. Similarly I think the decline of gender essentialist views that place the man in an aggressive, dominant posture with regard to women has done plenty of demonstrable harm and we'll be better off getting that under control if it means men respect women as people more than they did in the past. That said, I'd be a fool to think we as men won't still end up hitting on women in bars 100x more often than they do on us.

I always think of women as people. I don't think very many men see them as anything other than human. Wanting to have sex or not wanting it doesn't mean someone is not human. I don't get that.

The reason that we can enjoy a less violent society isn't due to being reformed in any way- it's due to the unprecedented, historically unique victory of our societies in Workd War II, and the economic and social system that has afforded us. In fact, it's the historic basis of this forum even existing.

We are nearing a point ( within the next fifty years) where this system is going to be eroded to the point it breaks. Then we will see massive violence. We are actually seeing it in U.S. cities- and this urban violence is largely due to the marginalization of masculine protector/provider men in those communities.

It's like the situation with ISIS- all those deaths for years just to lose. All those guys died for nothing. And that is the true beta experience, being conned into dying for a wicked elite. That's captain save a ho on overdrive. I know because I've lived it.

But that's going to be the norm more and more as time advances. We are akready seeing the shift in attitudes in the most leftist societies. For example, the next generation of Swedes are going to be much more grounded in reality as to what's going on in their country. There have been more and more articles by young women in Malmo, Sweden abandoning this needless shaming of native men. Only the most deluded can write fantasies about "rape culture" when an actual rape culture is taking root in that area, and women there are being gang-raped for walking around uncovered.

 

[TheDutchElm]

You might be surprised at what the statistical data says about violence declining. It's continuing and there's no reason to suspect it won't keep declining. Also it's not for reasons you might expect. I'd recommend this to you for entertaining reading backed up by a mountain of actual data:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels...=1-1&keywords=the+better+angels+of+our+nature

 

[GoldenDalton]

You might be surprised at what the statistical data says about violence declining. It's continuing and there's no reason to suspect it won't keep declining. Also it's not for reasons you might expect. I'd recommend this to you for entertaining reading backed up by a mountain of actual data:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence-ebook/dp/B0052REUW0/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413386380&sr=1-1&keywords=the better angels of our nature

I've actually read the book in question ( I think) Crazy. No doubt the modern police state is very effective at reducing violence, as is the welfare system. Murders among inner- city youth is a huge problem
in the U.S. especially in St. Louis, where I am now. And it is going to get very ugly. And have no doubt- The U.S. is in decline. The harsh reality is what it is. " Equality" is a good goal but massive inequality is out current reality, and it's getting worse yearly. Best believe- the call for another World War II generation will come and we will be there to witness it.


Damn. Just realized how much we have shit on this thread. This should probably be moved elsewhere. I apologize to Iron Giant- it snuck up on me.

 

[Solong]

Slightly missing the point of the exercise. Imagine you were approached even when you didn't want to be and/or weren't expecting to be. If this happened over and over and OVER, how do you think your attitude would change over time? I'm not saying rudeness isn't rude. I'm asking you to consider a different context to the one you are accustomed...

1) That's the point, in a public space, we don't have special privileges to not be approached.

Attacked, threatened, or insulted is something else entirely.

2) It's arguably arrogance and/or anti-social to think we should have special privileges to not be approached because of being pretty (or thinking so), female, rich, etc...

3) Beautiful/pretty women already have numerous tactics they use in public to avoid being approached.

The disgusted look, "bitch shield"(as known in PUA), the "hand"(also waving a person off), ignoring, etc...

Most guys with any common sense or brains can tell when a woman isn't interested and knows not to continue.

On the flip, many women don't mind or want to talk. They can have no issues with it, if done politely or with a specific guy. This has to be kept in mind too.

 

[GoldenDalton]

Wow. I go to bang a lady and come back to this. I can tell who didn't get laid tonight! LOL

Lol. It's 11 AM here though, so I'm hoping to get off the hook on this one.

 

[TheDutchElm]

DutchElm, how much pussy are you being handed for defending the feminist imperative!? LOL

So much for civility...

 

[GoldenDalton]

If you don't ever approach women how are you supposed to meet them? It seems like social interaction is just part of life.

Is it that bad that men approach them? Shouldn't be too hard to politely decline I wouldn't think- and then if the guy doesn't go away a sterner approach is required. I don't do PUA so I have little experience.

But I just can't feel all that much pity- the government takes a huge chunk of my money, which I've spent years building up, and no one gives a damn about how I feel about it. I think some princesses can handle having a lot of admirers, especially since a mostly male tax base is now paying for their birth control.

 

[TheDutchElm]

If you don't ever approach women how are you supposed to meet them? It seems like social interaction is just part of life.

Show me where I said "Never approach women not ever, no you clod, not even then. NEVER."

Is it that bad that men approach them? Shouldn't be too hard to politely declined I wouldn't think- and then if the guy doesn't go away a sterner approach is required.

No. But you're not owed a polite decline. And frankly, if it's the fifth, fifteenth, or fiftieth approach they've gotten in that situation, you're less likely to get a polite decline as the approaches continue. You aren't the first and you won't be the last. For all the assertions of manly manliness floating around here, there's an awful lot of hurt feels at being tersely told off by women who obviously aren't interested. You should be thanking them for not wasting your time.

 

[TheDutchElm]

I'm not done telling you you're wrong.

Then let's do it somewhere else. Because I wouldn't be surprised if we all got a slap on the wrist for carrying on here for this long.

 

[IronGiant]

He is approaching ladies who want to get laid. LOL

Well, yes, they do "want to get laid," I suppose, in the sense that they are all married women with Ashley Madison profiles. But from reading profile after profile on that site, it's clear that getting laid isn't the MAIN thing they want. Over and over, they write "I want someone who I can talk to" or "I want someone who can understand me" or "Let's heal our hurts together" or "I want to feel my heart beating swiftly again" or "I want to be spoiled."

And I like all those things too, and I want to help them have all those things. It's just that those things aren't the MAIN thing I 'm looking for.

So, a slight disconnect here. Not a gender war. I'm just trying to help them engineer a mutually acceptable, cooperative solution. (And what could be more Japanese?)

 

[GoldenDalton]

But then again I actually don't do PUA.

Show me where I said "Never approach women not ever, no you clod, not even then. NEVER."




No. But you're not owed a polite decline. And frankly, if it's the fifth, fifteenth, or fiftieth approach they've gotten in that situation, you're less likely to get a polite decline as the approaches continue. You aren't the first and you won't be the last. For all the assertions of manly manliness floating around here, there's an awful lot of hurt feels at being tersely told off by women who obviously aren't interested. You should be thanking them for not wasting your

Show me where I said "Never approach women not ever, no you clod, not even then. NEVER."




No. But you're not owed a polite decline. And frankly, if it's the fifth, fifteenth, or fiftieth approach they've gotten in that situation, you're less likely to get a polite decline as the approaches continue. You aren't the first and you won't be the last. For all the assertions of manly manliness floating around here, there's an awful lot of hurt feels at being tersely told off by women who obviously aren't interested. You should be thanking them for not wasting your time.

time.

As far as approaching goes I'm
no expert. I don't even know what the issue is there. In public you should expect it. I hate being harassed by pan- handlers but nobody is doing anything about it.

But I do think common courtesy is required, no matter the activity in question, whether it's customer service, a casual conversation, hell even in an arrest or robbery. It's unnecessary to be rude, no matter what came before. That's just basic human decency.

Same with any activity. It's kind of like the shitty customer service you get in Europe. I'll straight up walk away from
table if there's rudeness. And a chick who is rude to me will get rudeness back, though I'm courteous under normal circumstances.

Show me where I said "Never approach women not ever, no you clod, not even then. NEVER."




No. But you're not owed a polite decline. And frankly, if it's the fifth, fifteenth, or fiftieth approach they've gotten in that situation, you're less likely to get a polite decline as the approaches continue. You aren't the first and you won't be the last. For all the assertions of manly manliness floating around here, there's an awful lot of hurt feels at being tersely told off by women who obviously aren't interested. You should be thanking them for not wasting your time.

 

[GoldenDalton]

I do thank them. Gratefully. It's the ones who answer neither yes nor no but make me text them or try to set up dates for two weeks that piss me off.

And super agreed with your suggestion. We have carried on here foolishly. Apologies to all who had to see this.

It should just be on another thread. Good discussion otherwise.
It's good having these kinds of discussions without the irrational cries of " RAPE" every five seconds. Seems it was a fairly civil and logic- based discussion, given the topic.

Still, I gotta stop so that Iron Giant gets his thread back. I don't wanna inadvertently screw him out of having a good time due to a side discussion preventing good advice for being posted.

Hell another benefit of P4P- you get a bonafide 10 and she approaches you lol.

Now I'm
Yielding to others.

 

[John Chavers]

...

Macbeth: A5S5L21-28

 

[Cobra_X30]

Well, yes, they do "want to get laid," I suppose, in the sense that they are all married women with Ashley Madison profiles. But from reading profile after profile on that site, it's clear that getting laid isn't the MAIN thing they want. Over and over, they write "I want someone who I can talk to" or "I want someone who can understand me" or "Let's heal our hurts together" or "I want to feel my heart beating swiftly again" or "I want to be spoiled."
And I like all those things too, and I want to help them have all those things. It's just that those things aren't the MAIN thing I 'm looking for.
So, a slight disconnect here. Not a gender war. I'm just trying to help them engineer a mutually acceptable, cooperative solution. (And what could be more Japanese?)

I have learned from years and years of sales experience that what a woman says she wants and what she really wants are two different things. For Example... "I want someone who I can talk to"... can often express a desire for a man who provides attention and makes her feel special. In many cases sex is absolutely part of what she wants, but consider also this means lots of flirting and foreplay. I personally think you are going to be an absolute natural at this. My suggestion is to take some of what these guys are saying about being assertive/aggressive and combine it with your natural empathy.

 

[Hamerare]

Poor Iron Giant!

He must b in Tokyo now. I hope all goes well 4 him and no reason to expect it wont as long as he throws off what are obviously his 3 main issues

- Christian guilt that sex is selfish and an imposition on women if not ur wife
- mistaken belief that women dont enjoy sex
- fear of rejection

This doesnt make Iron Giant any different from most men in Anglo-Saxon cultures. It probably applied to me in the bad old days b4 I discovered P4P. Nothing better for knocking down ur own pychological barriers.

Go 4 it Iron Giant! Show them your metal!

 

[GoldenDalton]

Poor Iron Giant!

He must b in Tokyo now. I hope all goes well 4 him and no reason to expect it wont as long as he throws off what are obviously his 3 main issues

- Christian guilt that sex is selfish and an imposition on women if not ur wife
- mistaken belief that women dont enjoy sex
- fear of rejection

This doesnt make Iron Giant any different from most men in Anglo-Saxon cultures. It probably applied to me in the bad old days b4 I discovered P4P. Nothing better for knocking down ur own pychological barriers.

Go 4 it Iron Giant! Show them your metal!

This is exactly it. Couldn't express it better.

It's hard for me to come down on most men in Anglo countries- absolutely everything is done to keep us servile. Oppressive fundie teddy bear men on one end and man- hating leftists on another. God forbid a man makes good and wants to spend it on himself. The whole society from the state, the schools, and the mores drive that foot ever-firmly on a man's neck.

Iron giant give us a report on your adventures.

 

[IronGiant]

Yep, I'm in-country and I've already had my first dotokyan from a woman I was supposed to meet for lunch today, although she says she wants to reschedule. We'll see. Actually the cancellation gives me a chance to use that time to do some advance logistics scouting of locations in Ebisu, Akasaka and Shinjuku, where until now I've been limited to information available on the internet.

Another woman previously scheduled for lunch later in the week now wants to meet me tonight, so I should be able to get the ball rolling today in any event.

I've also added two more women to my schedule through AM in just the last few hours.

I'll report in often! Thanks for the support!

 

[IronGiant]

OK, it's 5:00, my date starts now, and God, this is the hardest part - being late on purpose like Roosh says to do. I think I'll have little problem with "qualifying" questions and "DHV," etc., but after so many years in Japan, being even just a little late tears at the very fiber of my being.

OK, that's five minutes and she's messaged me to say she's there. I can't stand it any more, I'm going in.