Virgin

[Sudsy]

I actually agree. I'm thankful that I was in Japan long before smartphones (let alone pocket wifi's etc.) were a thing. I got to learn more and do more by just doing some research and blind exploration.

Exactly. I’m glad I explored the world before the Internet existed.... I also might have turned into one of these wire-led spoon-fed hapless fools too scared of losing their connection to just roll with things and see where I ended up.

 

[Durg50]

At the risk of sounding like the old guy I am, in my first week in Tokyo there was no wireless internet, no mobile phones (smart or dumb), no world wide web, no "civilian" (non-professional techie) use of the net at all, no one even had the internet at home, no gps, very few train stations had signs of any sort (not even the name of the station) in romanji, many fewer gaijin and much less English spoken by people in customer service, ... My command of Japanese was entirely contained in a slim tourist phrase book that my traveling companion (and lover) lost about half way through the week. We were lost a bit more than half of our waking hours.

It was one of the best weeks of my life, which has had many great ones.

-Ww

Same

 

[Durg50]

Everyone knows that the best first sex is obviously with your best friends older sister or, even better, his mom.

Replace ‘or’ with ‘and’ and you are correct.

A wise pig once told me: ‘aim high’

 

[Durg50]

It is strange that you haven't been laid for 21 years then suddenly women are throwing themselves at you.

Also don't use the word 'rape' in a jokey way. I'm sure I'm not the only one to find it vile.

Calm down

 

[wtfpker]

Night was looking solid, went to a few bars in shibuya but made the bad decision of moving to rippongi at the last train, shit was dead and my wingman walked home cause he lived close but i lived 5 hrs walking, chilled until 5.
Got two numbers in two bars, one 37 another 24, would go again but definitely gonna stay in shibuya if I go the 5am route again.

 

[Wwanderer]

I am not saying it’s not ‘fine’ or that there is ‘something wrong’ with it,

OK, that's good to know. This earlier post of yours gave me a different impression (emphasis added):

And one more thing. Don’t lose your virginity to a pro. That is lame.

But in any case, I agree with you on this point:

just that it is sub-optimal.

but you seem to be missing the counterpoint that it is also super-worst-case. In other words, you avoid many of the worst possible outcomes at the cost of also missing some of the best possible ones...which is neither illogical nor "lame".

Btw, in this sense p4p sex in general is nearly always sub-optimal; the best sex is (generally believed to be) associated with deep and strong emotional/loving ties with your partner and is a profound bonding experience. Indeed, nearly everything in life is sub-optimal in some sense.

Now don’t argue with me on this one because I have just about lost my patience.

Wait, wait!! Are you saying that you actually have patience??!

-Ww

 

[warubuta]

OK, that's good to know. This earlier post of yours gave me a different impression (emphasis added):



But in any case, I agree with you on this point:



but you seem to be missing the counterpoint that it is also super-worst-case. In other words, you avoid many of the worst possible outcomes at the cost of also missing some of the best possible ones...which is neither illogical nor "lame".

Btw, in this sense p4p sex in general is nearly always sub-optimal; the best sex is (generally believed to be) associated with deep and strong emotional/loving ties with your partner and is a profound bonding experience. Indeed, nearly everything in life is sub-optimal in some sense.



Wait, wait!! Are you saying that you actually have patience??!

-Ww

In the moment, most of the time, sex is sex is sex. The aspect of first sex with a pro that concerns me the most is the memory of it. Who wants to go through life with the fact that the first time you had sex was with a pro? That is the most sub optimal aspect of it. And yes life is a long painful exercise of sub optimizing. But that doesn’t mean you have to sub optimize everything. My point is that the OP should wait until he has a chance to do it with a civilian. That memory will be a positive one that provides a modicum of self confidence rather than the opposite. For his whole life.

 

[Wwanderer]

In the moment, most of the time, sex is sex is sex. The aspect of first sex with a pro that concerns me the most is the memory of it. Who wants to go through life with the fact that the first time you had sex was with a pro? That is the most sub optimal aspect of it. And yes life is a long painful exercise of sub optimizing. But that doesn’t mean you have to sub optimize everything. My point is that the OP should wait until he has a chance to do it with a civilian. That memory will be a positive one that provides a modicum of self confidence rather than the opposite. For his whole life.

It is a question of how much psychological significance one attaches to it being THE FIRST TIME. My guess is that most people think of losing their virginity as a big deal before it happens but that its significance quickly fades as they have more experiences. I suspect few people, men or women, have particularly good first sexual experiences, specifically because it is the first time, thus they are nervous and don't know what they are doing.

My first time wasn't good at all, in part because we tried to do it on a beach; pro-tip = sand is a *terrible* lubricant no matter how romantic the setting! But it didn't exactly put me off sex or leave a terrible or even particularly important memory. I don't remember my first kiss at all, although I am pretty sure I recall the girl in question at least dimly and how old I was. I also don't recall the first time I took a date to a restaurant...or the first time a romantic interest of mine prepared a meal for me herself. Nor the first time I used a sex toy on a woman or the first time I played bedroom bondage games or ... In short, there is no reason you have to attach any special emotional or psychological importance to the first time you do something that you are going to be doing many many times in your life.

But, the main reason I strongly disagree with you is that sentences like the one I made bold in the quote of your post above suggest to me that paying for sex is somehow bad/wrong/shameful/distasteful/humiliating or something very negative. Many people think that, have that hang up, but many others do not, and the TAG community in particular is usually said not to judge/stigmatize p4p (and many other lifestyle choices). Whether or not you actually feel that way, your advice to the OP strongly hints at you having judged p4p to be a bad thing. Imo, that judgement is the bad thing in play here, not p4p itself.

-Ww

 

[warubuta]

It’s the difference between catching a fish and buying a fish. Which is more memorable? And which is more positive? I have been clear that I don’t think P4P is bad. Neither is buying a fish. I prefer catching though. Don’t you? Call it a hang up if you want. I guess you are more psychologically liberated than I. And if you can’t recall the great firsts in your life, then you are not living properly. You should create and cherish accomplishments; especially the romantic sexual ones. Commit them to memory. Because at some point late in life that is all you will have.

 

[User#8628]

Btw, in this sense p4p sex in general is nearly always sub-optimal; the best sex is (generally believed to be) associated with deep and strong emotional/loving ties with your partner and is a profound bonding experience. Indeed, nearly everything in life is sub-optimal in some sense.

In that sense, i really dont see how its different from picking up a drunk old gaijin hunter at a bar. Is that better? More romantic? More attractive?

Honestly, if i were OP, i would lose my virginity to the girl i like because while i dont think virginity is valuable or important, the first time is something you will remember. I’m glad that I remember my first time being with someone who was very attractive to me, even though it did not go to well and the relationship didn’t last.

A drunk pick up sounds about the most depressing first time to me, more so than doing it paid.

 

[warubuta]

In that sense, i really dont see how its different from picking up a drunk old gaijin hunter at a bar. Is that better? More romantic? More attractive?

Honestly, if i were OP, i would lose my virginity to the girl i like because while i dont think virginity is valuable or important, the first time is something you will remember. I’m glad that I remember my first time being with someone who was very attractive to me, even though it did not go to well and the relationship didn’t last.

A drunk pick up sounds about the most depressing first time to me, more so than doing it paid.

Agree. A drunk pick up is not a great thing especially if one or both participants would not have done it sober. Much worse than P4P.

 

[User#8628]

But, the main reason I strongly disagree with you is that sentences like the one I made bold in the quote of your post above suggest to me that paying for sex is somehow bad/wrong/shameful/distasteful/humiliating or something very negative. Many people think that, have that hang up, but many others do not, and the TAG community in particular is usually said not to judge/stigmatize p4p (and many other lifestyle choices). Whether or not you actually feel that way, your advice to the OP strongly hints at you having judged p4p to be a bad thing. Imo, that judgement is the bad thing in play here, not p4p itself.

Mongers who think that way only shoot themselves in the foot really.
What do you reach with that? You want to lower the girls you are with? But we don’t care to be honest, we are getting that cash and we are having to deal with judgement of more important people in our life so the negativity of someone who is probably out of the door in less than one hour wont change us.
As a monger, this attitude is only hurting yourself and lowering your own self esteem, not placing you higher than anyone.
The correct way to monger is to pay for the convenience and to enjoy the ride and make sure the person you’re with is ok as well and not a victim. Then, no need to feel guilty or bad, its like paying for any service. I dont curse my hairdresser because i cant do my own hair the way he can or because he wont do mine for free...

 

[MikeH]

the first time is something you will remember.

I have to go with @Wwanderer here and say the memory fades when you have more new ones. Because if I don't agree with him then I have to confess I am so old I cannot remember what happened when I was just a tiny lad.

Because I am not really sure which one was my "first one". Maybe it was just not that earth shattering? But I do remember my first p4p; she gave me a mediocre blow job and then stole all my money.

 

[User#8628]

I have to go with @Wwanderer here and say the memory fades when you have more new ones. Because if I don't agree with him then I have to confess I am so old I cannot remember what happened when I was just a tiny lad.

Because I am not really sure which one was my "first one". Maybe it was just not that earth shattering? But I do remember my first p4p; she gave me a mediocre blow job and then stole all my money.

I believe thats more about age than about number of experiences because i remember my first time well.

 

[warubuta]

Mongers who think that way only shoot themselves in the foot really.
What do you reach with that? You want to lower the girls you are with? But we don’t care to be honest, we are getting that cash and we are having to deal with judgement of more important people in our life so the negativity of someone who is probably out of the door in less than one hour wont change us.
As a monger, this attitude is only hurting yourself and lowering your own self esteem, not placing you higher than anyone.
The correct way to monger is to pay for the convenience and to enjoy the ride and make sure the person you’re with is ok as well and not a victim. Then, no need to feel guilty or bad, its like paying for any service. I dont curse my hairdresser because i cant do my own hair the way he can or because he wont do mine for free...

Perfectly stated.

 

[MikeH]

I believe thats more about age than about number of experiences because i remember my first time well.

Now you are calling me an old geezer? Well, it is true but it doesn't mean it ain't hurt.

I think it probably is more about the value you put in to that experience. Anything you think is a big deal you would remember, right? First time going abroad might be life lasting memory for someone living in an isolated island country but if you can walk to the next country without even noticing it then you won't remember when it happened.

I might not be sure who got my virginity but I do remember when I gave a girl an orgasm for the first time though.

 

[Wwanderer]

Mongers who think that way only shoot themselves in the foot really.

I'm sure you know it very well, but just to be clear to others reading this, the part of my post you quote was describing the way @warubuta appeared to me to be thinking/talking about p4p and SWs, not the way I regard them.

-Ww

 

[warubuta]

Agree with Alice that mongers who pay to humiliate the SP are the lowest. But if that is true, what about the guys who pay to be humiliated? Aren’t they just as bad?

 

[MikeH]

Agree with Alice that mongers who pay to humiliate the SP are the lowest. But if that is true, what about the guys who pay to be humiliated? Aren’t they just as bad?

I really can't follow your train of thought which makes me wonder if there is one. If you pay to humiliate someone that's not bad; if that is in the offer. If you pay someone for something else and then proceed to humiliate him/her yeah, that's bad but the paying part doesn't make any difference in here.

And if you want to be humiliated and someone likes to do that, nothing bad there either. Again no difference if money is involved or not. It's about the thing called consensual.

 

[Wwanderer]

It’s the difference between catching a fish and buying a fish. Which is more memorable? And which is more positive? I have been clear that I don’t think P4P is bad. Neither is buying a fish. I prefer catching though. Don’t you? Call it a hang up if you want. I guess you are more psychologically liberated than I. And if you can’t recall the great firsts in your life, then you are not living properly. You should create and cherish accomplishments; especially the romantic sexual ones. Commit them to memory. Because at some point late in life that is all you will have.

I can pursue debates like this one forever online and have done so on TAG at times in the past but am going to let this one go with just two more comments:

- First, I didn't say that I don't or that one shouldn't cherish and hold onto memories of great events and accomplishments but rather that there is no reason to regard "first times" as being more important than other times that follow in great number. To be specific, I recall in vivid detail some of the erotic and romantic (or both) events of my hippie youth, but they weren't firsts or even close to it; they were "merely" really really wonderful and terrific ones. That seems enormously more important to me than what number they were in a long series.

- Second, the part of your post I made bold is common advice, but not entirely good advice imo, speaking as one who has now reached an age at which most of my contemporaries appear to have little in life except their memories. Trust me, it makes most of them quite unhappy people (and rather dull company). They effectively live in a past to which only they have wistful mental access and don't have much reason left to even get out of bed each morning. It is far wiser, imo, to "live in the moment" as the saying goes and not give the past inordinate thought or attention. Doing so simply hastens the day when you are stuck there. Staying young mentally (and emotionally) comes from being focused on the present and the future, not from clutching at old memories.

-Ww

 

[warubuta]

Both are bad. Obviously. We all have a deep psychological need to, at times, both humiliate as well as be humiliated.

 

[MikeH]

Both are bad. Obviously. We all have a deep psychological need to, at times, both humiliate as well as be humiliated.

So what's bad about that? Better just not give a fuck what someone else says and enjoy what you enjoy.

 

[warubuta]

Yea I guess that they aren’t really bad as long as we understand what’s going on at a psychological level.

 

[Wwanderer]

I wonder if this is the longest of the many threads on TAG started by a virgin guy coming to Tokyo and asking for advice about getting laid for the first time. I'd guess that it is at least in contention.

-Ww

 

[warubuta]

Why do virgin guys come to Tokyo to get laid for the first time?