Why Group Dates & Meeting Her Friends Could Be Bad

[Sinapse]

Can't everyone just have sex freely in the streets or however they like it whenever they like it? That would be nice..

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[Ladylisa]

Can't everyone just have sex freely in the streets or however they like it whenever they like it? That would be nice..

That would be nice - but does it work that way for most people ... Male or female.

 

[Ladylisa]

That's not what I said, and you are being an ass. Go try trolling elsewhere.

Wow... That was rude.

In this thread -as in other threads - you claim to be the expert about women's bodies - more than women themselves.

 

[Solong]

1) It is my opinion that women have it easier.

As an opinion, of course that's relative and debatable, as there are many.

However, have not seen a regular heterosexual man claim to have go on Craigslist and got so many responses from women that he had to shutdown his account in 4 hours. And was highly annoyed at having to filter out his choice of women as a result.

2) Didn't say I or any other PUA are only trying to bag 10s.

The concept of trying to get with Mr. Right (and hypergamy) is more strongly attributed to women, and for good reason. Often women are tired of all the easy sex they can get, and want way more (long list of demands). Where most men are not able to attain sex so easily or have as many options, minus being rich and famous.

3) I never said women aren't entitled to enjoy sex or 1 night stands.

I'm an advocate for women to enjoy themselves. However, the game men and women play are different, to acknowledge reality is delusional or disingenuous.

There is an old saying, which don't get mad at me, because I didn't create it nor did I make the game we are forced to play.

"A key that opens many locks is a master key, yet a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock."

 

[Solong]

Wow... That was rude.

In this thread -as in other threads - you claim to be the expert about women's bodies - more than women themselves.

I could make the counter claim, of women claiming to be bigger experts on men, than men themselves. Anyway, I only claim what my experience is, nothing more.

And User#16452 was purposely twisting words to something I didn't say, and sneaking in an obviously insulting comment.

 

[User#16452]

.

 

[Ladylisa]

"A large quantity of replies to an ad does not equal quality."

This is what I was talking about - it's a numbers game, just like the guys... Just in a different way.

You approach many women, only a few of whom turn into quality dates.

A women may get many responses, only a few of whom turn into quality dates.

 

[Sinapse]

That would be nice - but does it work that way for most people ... Male or female.

I know this intimately.. Or else you and I would be out of employment!

It's Machiavellian out there.

I wish it was just all open and free, that would be nice indeed

 

[split]

I got one. What about Craigslist and the woman posting and getting tons of choices to select within hours vs. the guy posting and getting tons of choices to select from but with one problem - most responses are from gay men. Simply put more choices = more opportunities.
Also, although I've never been to one, and unrelated to same day sex, but don't speed dating venues have more men than women? It must be a real burden to have deliberate options layed out in front of oneself. I know that when I have 2 options I find myself stuck in a quandary.

 

[Wwanderer]

It's very obvious who derailed and sidetracked the topic, by looking at the previous posts.

True!

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Yeah, yeah, I know it's trust...is he going to cut my throat or do something crazy? (usually not, particularly in a foreign country).

Well, you are surely right that she will "usually not" get her throat cut (particularly in a foreign country), but it is a serious bummer even if it only happens occasionally! It could easily ruin a woman's whole weekend.

More seriously, whether or not you or any other guy thinks women's fears of going into a private place with a guy they just met are justified, those fears unquestionably exist and have a HUGE influence on many/most women's behavior.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

You might not be understanding the market.

Maybe not, but one thing I do understand about markets is that they will produce supply in response to demand (when they are functioning well). @Ladylisa's comment was a (mild and somewhat whimsical) expression of such a demand. Moreover, it is far from the only time I've ever heard the sentiment from a woman; it is pretty common actually. The *fact* that the supply of p4p options for women is expanding in Japan and elsewhere is evidence of that increasing demand (the existence of which you appear to be trying to deny in some of your posts in this thread).

A woman that is horny and wants penetrative sex, has multiple options, besides needing to pay a male gigolo.

So does a man. Women may have more and better options than p4p than most men, but men certainly have many too. Most sex in the world is not p4p. Yet many men routinely prefer p4p at least some of the time...mostly for the sorts of reasons I listed in earlier posts, not because it is the one and only way they can find a sex partner.

Indeed, right here on TAG and in this very forum, there are a couple of guys who have posted volumes and volumes about how guys can very effectively get women into bed for np4p sex via PUA/nampa "tactics"! Somehow though, this fact has not eliminated the p4p sex market in Tokyo.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

So does a man. Women may have more and better options than p4p than most men, but men certainly have many too. Most sex in the world is not p4p. Yet many men routinely prefer p4p at least some of the time...mostly for the sorts of reasons I listed in earlier posts, not because it is the one and only way they can find a sex partner.

Indeed, right here on TAG and in this very forum, there are a couple of guys who have posted volumes and volumes about how guys can very effectively get women into bed for np4p sex via PUA/nampa "tactics"! Somehow though, this fact has not eliminated the p4p sex market in Tokyo.

Do you really think the bulk of P4P customers are getting laid left and right from women they proactively talk to and bring home on their own time? I think thats a bit crazy.. A couple nampa guys I know go to p4p sometimes, but it's usually just after a night of fishing with no bites.. I tend to believe the average p4p-goer is the same, much in the same way you don't really go to a restaurant if you've already eaten. I suppose the whole "married and it doesn't count if I go for p4p" demographic is real, but is that just something you're telling yourself to make yourself feel better or is it an explicit agreement with the missus? Seems to me the main reason a guy would want a GFE is if he doesn't have a GF he likes...

 

[Solong]

I got one. What about Craigslist and the woman posting and getting tons of choices to select within hours vs. the guy posting and getting tons of choices to select from but with one problem - most responses are from gay men. Simply put more choices = more opportunities.
Also, although I've never been to one, and unrelated to same day sex, but don't speed dating venues have more men than women? It must be a real burden to have deliberate options layed out in front of oneself. I know that when I have 2 options I find myself stuck in a quandary.

Furthermore, I would say it's very disingenuous or the person is delusional, if they pretend that the male and female situation is the same.

And in the case of SOME women (not saying all), they know exactly what's up, but seek to hide their advantage and deceive on purpose. She is running through tons of guys as sex toys, dumping them as disposable tampons, and/or pulling tax free money/benefits on the side.

But if you call her out on it, she is going to pretend she's having a "hard knock" life, because she can't find "Mr. Perfect" or because dude X didn't do or give her exactly what she wanted.

 

[Wwanderer]

I would say it's very disingenuous or the person is delusional, if they pretend that the male and female situation is the same.

I agree, but I'm not sure why you mention it since as far as I can see not a single participant in this thread has even come close to claiming that the np4p sexual environment of men and women is identical.

-Ww

 

[Solong]

Do you really think the bulk of P4P customers are getting laid left and right from women they proactively talk to and bring home on their own time? I think thats a bit crazy.. A couple nampa guys I know go to p4p sometimes, but it's usually just after a night of fishing with no bites.. I tend to believe the average p4p-goer is the same, much in the same way you don't really go to a restaurant if you've already eaten. I suppose the whole "married and it doesn't count if I go for p4p" demographic is real, but is that just something you're telling yourself to make yourself feel better or is it an explicit agreement with the missus? Seems to me the main reason a guy would want a GFE is if he doesn't have a GF he likes...

I think it's partially a pride thing, and you see this with many guys not doing well with getting dates. They aren't or refuse to be honest with themselves.

They don't want to admit they feel that they must pay women for sex, when they are failing at pickup and dating so miserably.

Paying for sex is more convenient, when you can't get what is freely available. There are billions of women on this planet. Instead of asking why they can't do, what the next guy is doing for free, they are dumping money at the problem. If you can't honestly assess your situation and admit what's wrong, then how can you ever go about the process of fixing or improving it?

Also, insisting on a GFE, is more likely and more often, when you don't have a girlfriend and part of maintaining the delusion. You are paying money for sex, she is clearly not your girlfriend.

 

[Solong]

Maybe not, but one thing I do understand about markets is that they will produce supply in response to demand (when they are functioning well). @Ladylisa's comment was a (mild and somewhat whimsical) expression of such a demand. Moreover, it is far from the only time I've ever heard the sentiment from a woman; it is pretty common actually. The *fact* that the supply of p4p options for women is expanding in Japan and elsewhere is evidence of that increasing demand (the existence of which you appear to be trying to deny in some of your posts in this thread).



So does a man. Women may have more and better options than p4p than most men, but men certainly have many too. Most sex in the world is not p4p. Yet many men routinely prefer p4p at least some of the time...mostly for the sorts of reasons I listed in earlier posts, not because it is the one and only way they can find a sex partner.

Indeed, right here on TAG and in this very forum, there are a couple of guys who have posted volumes and volumes about how guys can very effectively get women into bed for np4p sex via PUA/nampa "tactics"! Somehow though, this fact has not eliminated the p4p sex market in Tokyo. [emoji14]

-Ww

No PUA on this site has said it was their goal to eliminate the P4P market. Stop with the ridiculousness.

 

[Wwanderer]

There are several good points and questions in this post. Thanks!

Do you really think the bulk of P4P customers are getting laid left and right from women they proactively talk to and bring home on their own time? I think thats a bit crazy..

You are correct I'm sure. Hardly any p4p customers are having sex with the frequency and the quality of partners that PUA/nampa types claim to have. However, most sex in the world is neither p4p nor the product of PUA/nampa, and what I posted and you quoted is correct:. The substantial majority of p4p customers have other options for sex but choose to use p4p at least part of the time for a wide variety of reasons.

I tend to believe the average p4p-goer is the same, much in the same way you don't really go to a restaurant if you've already eaten.

This analogy is a pretty good one for explaining the situation. The bulk of customers in restaurants are there because they want to eat of course but *not* because it is their only possible way of getting food. Mostly they eat at home but they sometimes choose to eat in a restaurant for variety or convenience or to get some special treat that isn't available at home or to save the time and effort of cooking and grocery shopping etc.

I suppose the whole "married and it doesn't count if I go for p4p" demographic is real, but is that just something you're telling yourself to make yourself feel better or is it an explicit agreement with the missus?

Cases where it is an explicit agreement with the wife are relatively rare, a minor part of the picture for sure, but they do exist. It is most common in cases where the couple is separated for long periods of time, months or years...such as when the guy is serving in the military.

Much more commonly it makes the guy feel less guilty and/or he knows that p4p poses a much smaller threat to his marriage (and his access to his children etc) than np4p/romantic situations and/or he believes (probably correctly) that his wife would be somewhat less upset and more likely to forgive p4p infidelity than np4p/romantic infidelity if she ever finds out.

Seems to me the main reason a guy would want a GFE is if he doesn't have a GF he likes...

I think you are wrong on this one. The main reason many (not all, by any means) mongers seek a GFE is because being serviced in a disinterested or even hostile and mechanical way just isn't very erotic. An extremely non-GFE p4p session can be little better than masturbation if you are sensitive to anything about the circumstances beyond the direct physical stimulation.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

No PUA on this site has said it was their goal to eliminate the P4P market.

If I wrote that somewhere, I'd be surprised, since no such thought has crossed my mind...if for no other reason because it is so obviously beyond the power of PUAs to do anything remotely of the sort.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I think it's partially a pride thing, and you see this with many guys not doing well with getting dates. They aren't or refuse to be honest with themselves.

They don't want to admit they feel that they must pay women for sex, when they are failing at pickup and dating so miserably.

Paying for sex is more convenient, when you can't get what is freely available. There are billions of women on this planet. Instead of asking why they can't do, what the next guy is doing for free, they are dumping money at the problem. If you can't honestly assess your situation and admit what's wrong, then how can you ever go about the process of fixing or improving it?

Also, insisting on a GFE, is more likely and more often, when you don't have a girlfriend and part of maintaining the delusion. You are paying money for sex, she is clearly not your girlfriend.

The view you express here is basically the flip side of much of the stigmatization of sex workers - telling them or implying that they would never "sell their bodies" if they could earn a living in some "decent" and more respectable/proper/moral way (including by getting a man to marry and support them in the eyes of some). When non-sw women make such arguments they are implicitly claiming to be better people than sex workers. The aim is in large part to shame and disrespect those doing sex work. The case you make is basically the same but applied to the customers of sex workers - telling them or implying that they would never pay for sex if they could get it in any decent/respectable/proper/moral way. When non-monger men make such arguments they are implicitly claiming to be better people than mongers. The aim is in large part to shame and disrespect the customers of sex workers.

Having no way to know what is in your heart @Solong, I do not attribute these intentions or attitudes to you (nor deny that they are yours), but that is definitely how this sort of perspective usually comes about.

Note that it is very easy to turn all this on its head and say something like, PUA/nampa guys are ones who can't earn enough money to attract and hold onto women who are looking for a partner with whom to make a life, have a family and enjoy all that life has to offer beyond fun in bed...so they chase an endless chain of skirts with their lists of little tricks and end up becoming the temporary toys of women who rarely love or respect them. You should hear what a lot of young women say to each other in private about PUA/nampa guys...well, actually maybe it is better that you don't.

But fwiiw, I don't actually hold that view. Rather I'd say that both mongers and PUAs/nampa-guys have in common that they are particularly obsessed with women and sex compared to the overall male population, the large majority of which fall into neither category. Most guys are fine with getting laid once or twice a week by the same woman (in at least a serial monogamy sense) and prefer to devote the rest of their time and energy to other matters entirely. Among "us" women/sex-obsessed guys, some chase the women directly (PUA/nampa types) while some chase the women indirectly by chasing money. Both have their pros and cons. One pro of going the money route is that the money you earn is very useful for a truly VAST number of purposes; PUA skills not so much... Try living in a large and luxurious residence or educating your children via PUA/nampa etc.

-Ww

 

[Sinapse]

PUA/nampa guys are ones who can't earn enough money to attract and hold onto women who are looking for a partner with whom to make a life, have a family and enjoy all that life has to offer beyond fun in bed

I know you're saying you don't agree with this.. but pretty much any PUA worth his salt has multiple women lining up and wishing he would ask them to be his girlfriend, or marry her. In fact, the main reason we have to cut girls off from our lives is that they don't get the "BFE" or perhaps more accurately, the commitment to monogamy that they want.

The difference to what you're saying and what I'm saying is this:

I think that guys get into PUA (certainly I did) from a place of severe pain, lack, and depression about women and their social life. From what I've seen, it's somewhat similar with mongering (correct me if I'm wrong). The difference being, with PUA you are learning a skill (learning how to fish) and with mongering you are.... going to the fishmonger (oHO set that one up there). Do enough PUA for long enough and you won't have to worry about attracting women into your life anymore, no matter what your life situation is. The downside being, you don't necessarily fix the rest of your life unless you get that motivation too (which is why the PU industry as a whole is moving towards "lifestyle" - although conspicuously the J nanpa industry for Japanese guys seems to be lagging in this area from what I've seen).

No doubt there are guys who get into PUA who already have everything else (my good friend is a well-established lawyer who lives very well and has excellent Japanese, in his mid-40s. The only thing missing was game. He took a bootcamp [not from me], and went out really hard, he banged 100 girls in his first year, and now he's slowed down but he's sleeping with TV models, Chinese pop stars, high-level kyaba, and race queens. For guys who have everything set in their life, PUA is just the cherry on top, or perhaps the keystone that sets the arch of manhood firm, but what a difference it can make! On the flip side you have, as you mentioned, the poorer, younger guys who still have a fluid identity and are trying to carve out their own brand of masculine power in a world which doesn't really provide a lot of good examples. So they go out, hit the streets or clubs or whatever, get a TON of rejection, and improve. They go through stages, one of which I like to call the "hot mess stage" (more on that another time), and learn to kick ass both in their pickup life and in the rest of their life. If you know a guy who is a "PUA" who doesn't have the rest of his life handled, he is still on the path, still in a larval form.

Just like my lawyer friend who had everything (finance/social) worked out, there are certainly guys who monger who have their love lives figured out. I've said before on other posts, you should have SOMETHING, a discipline, a path to walk. This path should be hard, with a TON of rejection along the way, and it should provide you with feedback and peel away the negative layers of your ego. That path doesn't need to be PUA. BUT if you're not walking / haven't walked a path, I'm not sure you're being the best you can be. It's up to everybody to be honest with themselves.

Are you mongering because you have the rest of your life figured out, you have the disposable income to the point that it's not an issue, and are getting sex with women you find just as attractive as the providers elsewhere, but are simply choosing anyway to go mongering because of other reasons (skill / less guilt / etc). OR are you going as a band-aid stop-gap for your libido and paying a lot more money than you need to be for sex. This isn't meant to look down on mongering - I would love to try a high-quality provider, just like I would love to have a nice new leather sofa, or a Rolex, or a trip to Indonesia for scuba diving. But it's similarly in the category of "luxury" and "wants", not "needs". Sex, however, is in the category of "needs" for me. So much so that my "path" of choice was pickup. If a guy thinks that he "needs" to p4p to get laid and there's no other option, I would argue against it, that he CAN take control of his dating life.

I would wager to guess that most men feel a "call to action" to get with women, kicking in around puberty. It is, for most, a biological one. The Hero's Journey, the famous archetype that guides all fiction and much reality starts the same, with a "call to action/adventure."

Per Wikipedia:

"Refusal of the Call
Often when the call is given, the future hero first refuses to heed it. This may be from a sense of duty or obligation, fear, insecurity, a sense of inadequacy, or any of a range of reasons that work to hold the person in his or her current circumstances.

Campbell: "Refusal of the summons converts the adventure into its negative. Walled in boredom, hard work, or 'culture,' the subject loses the power of significant affirmative action and becomes a victim to be saved. His flowering world becomes a wasteland of dry stones and his life feels meaningless—even though, like King Minos, he may through titanic effort succeed in building an empire or renown. Whatever house he builds, it will be a house of death: a labyrinth of cyclopean walls to hide from him his minotaur. All he can do is create new problems for himself and await the gradual approach of his disintegration."

"Refusal of the call" in this case means, not taking control of your dating life, and boy does it sound like a commonly-repeated diagnosis! Modern man often feels like his life is without meaning, like he's trapped in his career working just for money and going home to a woman he isn't excited about anymore. The things that society tells you to want - a good career, money, a wife, a house - don't make you happy. What does? Adventure. Walking the path. Being your best self. Going out there and catching your own dinner with your hands and eyes and wit.

The default state is "Settling" for someone you find below your standards because you fear you will be unable to find someone better. Most average people get into relationships with the women who are proximally closest, not those who they really want. Most guys don't even know what they actually want in a marriage until they've dated a LOT of women. They think they know, but their choices are being made by psychological biases of scarcity (vagina is rare to me, therefore this woman who is offering hers to be must be valuable -- MARRY HER!) and small sample size (I've dated Jane from my soccer team and Carly from work, and Carly was better than Jane, so MARRY HER).

Ultimately it's within each guy to decide if they have explored the world sexually enough to know what they like and marry one woman who meets those criteria. If they refuse to explore despite their deep desire to, they will forever regret it and it will nag at them, usually ending in unhappy marriage, cheating (perhaps some mongering), and divorce.

IF THAT IS NOT YOU, and if you have walked a long and hard path, destroyed your ego in some other way, then yeah, by all means, go monger! Sounds like a blast! I'll join you when I find a bunch of extra yen lying around that I have no other use for.

 

[Solong]

The view you express here is basically the flip side of much of the stigmatization of sex workers - telling them or implying that they would never "sell their bodies" if they could earn a living in some "decent" and more respectable/proper/moral way (including by getting a man to marry and support them in the eyes of some). When non-sw women make such arguments they are implicitly claiming to be better people than sex workers. The aim is in large part to shame and disrespect those doing sex work. The case you make is basically the same but applied to the customers of sex workers - telling them or implying that they would never pay for sex if they could get it in any decent/respectable/proper/moral way. When non-monger men make such arguments they are implicitly claiming to be better people than mongers. The aim is in large part to shame and disrespect the customers of sex workers.

Having no way to know what is in your heart @Solong, I do not attribute these intentions or attitudes to you (nor deny that they are yours), but that is definitely how this sort of perspective usually comes about.

Note that it is very easy to turn all this on its head and say something like, PUA/nampa guys are ones who can't earn enough money to attract and hold onto women who are looking for a partner with whom to make a life, have a family and enjoy all that life has to offer beyond fun in bed...so they chase an endless chain of skirts with their lists of little tricks and end up becoming the temporary toys of women who rarely love or respect them. You should hear what a lot of young women say to each other in private about PUA/nampa guys...well, actually maybe it is better that you don't.

But fwiiw, I don't actually hold that view. Rather I'd say that both mongers and PUAs/nampa-guys have in common that they are particularly obsessed with women and sex compared to the overall male population, the large majority of which fall into neither category. Most guys are fine with getting laid once or twice a week by the same woman (in at least a serial monogamy sense) and prefer to devote the rest of their time and energy to other matters entirely. Among "us" women/sex-obsessed guys, some chase the women directly (PUA/nampa types) while some chase the women indirectly by chasing money. Both have their pros and cons. One pro of going the money route is that the money you earn is very useful for a truly VAST number of purposes; PUA skills not so much... Try living in a large and luxurious residence or educating your children via PUA/nampa etc.

-Ww

I agree with elements of your post, where mongers and PUAs can have the same objective, but take different paths to get there. One throws money at the problem, while the other uses skill. And PUA skills are very transferable to other areas, because it involves developing "people skills", analysis, and problem solving. Ww, you give the impression that you don't know what PUA is, or have a very negative and stereotypical view that doesn't reflect reality.

Pick Up, at it's very fundamental, is talking to people and trying to get a date. Any man, that had a conversation with a woman for the purpose of starting a relationship, has done a form of Pick Up.

A Pick Up Artist is a person (man or woman) that decided rather than be random and clumsy about the process, they would study it and get better at it. Like a person who had random success in street fights, that decided to go to a Kick-Boxing or MMA class. If I'm going to fight, let me at least know what I'm doing or get good at it. However, you are like a person that claims studying Martial Arts or any style of pro fighting is useless, and better you continue to fight like a 6th grader with your head down and swinging blindly.

Of course certain women are going to dislike men becoming smarter or better about the Pick Up "process". Such women can feel it's a threat to their advantage or getting money from off them. If men told women they can no longer wear makeup, push-up bras, get breast implants, wear sexy clothes because it was "cheating" or "she's a pathetic loser", those women would laugh in his face. So let's flip that, a man learning better ways to attract women or get dates is really a "problem"?

Furthermore, the decision to throw money at the "problem" of getting sex, may not be a smart or the best one. It depends. That money he threw away could have started a business or bought that car he wanted. Paying for sex, could have got him no closer to the relationship or marriage he actually wants. On the flip, if the man is rich and short on time, might be the easiest path to buy women.

I've stated elsewhere and on many occasions that which is better, P4P or NP4P, depends on the man and his situation. Each has it's place, with advantages and disadvantages. It is not for me to throw stones at any monger enjoying his life, but it's not for you to throw stones at PUAs that enjoy their lifestyle or choose a different path besides burning through money.

 

[Wwanderer]

Thanks for another interesting and helpful post.

I know you're saying you don't agree with this..

Thanks for noting and acknowledging that I was mentioning, NOT taking, the point of view on PUA/nampa you quoted. I definitely do not believe that PUA guys are losers who cannot make a living etc. I was only pointing out that that is the mirror image of the view of mongers that @Solong expressed. Neither are accurate imo.

but pretty much any PUA worth his salt has multiple women lining up and wishing he would ask them to be his girlfriend, or marry her. In fact, the main reason we have to cut girls off from our lives is that they don't get the "BFE" or perhaps more accurately, the commitment to monogamy that they want.

I have no idea based on personal experience, but I can easily believe what you say...sounds very plausible to me. In fact, it is one of the things I dislike about the approach to meeting women you advocate. It appears to me (I could be wrong) that you end up misleading a lot of women who are looking for a long term or serious relationship about your intentions/availability...and thus end up disappointing them and perhaps hurting (emotionally) many of them. I could be wrong, but I imagine that when you are out doing a string of cold street approaches you don't tell each woman that she is just one of the many attractive women you plan to hit on that day. Don't you lead her to believe, by omission if not by outright deceit, that you are particularly interested in her specifically?

One of my guidelines/standards in life is to make sure that everyone with whom I interact significantly regards it as a good, even if minor, thing in their lives after the fact...to the extent possible, doesn't always work out that way of course. Anyway, that is a completely different topic, and this thread hardly needs further topics!

The difference to what you're saying and what I'm saying is this:

I think that guys get into PUA (certainly I did) from a place of severe pain, lack, and depression about women and their social life. From what I've seen, it's somewhat similar with mongering (correct me if I'm wrong). The difference being, with PUA you are learning a skill (learning how to fish) and with mongering you are.... going to the fishmonger (oHO set that one up there). Do enough PUA for long enough and you won't have to worry about attracting women into your life anymore, no matter what your life situation is.

The way I'd take that metaphor is that PUA is learning to fish for oneself, and the mongering route is to get an education and/or useful skills, a work-ethic, a good job etc that put you in a position to always be able to eat fish or beef or chicken or whatever food you wish...as well as do many things beyond feeding yourself. It is a lot more efficient and flexible than trying to learn not only how to fish but also how to raise steers and chickens plus how to cook them etc.

The downside being, you don't necessarily fix the rest of your life unless you get that motivation too (which is why the PU industry as a whole is moving towards "lifestyle" - although conspicuously the J nanpa industry for Japanese guys seems to be lagging in this area from what I've seen).

... If you know a guy who is a "PUA" who doesn't have the rest of his life handled, he is still on the path, still in a larval form.
I've said before on other posts, you should have SOMETHING, a discipline, a path to walk. This path should be hard, with a TON of rejection along the way, and it should provide you with feedback and peel away the negative layers of your ego. That path doesn't need to be PUA. BUT if you're not walking / haven't walked a path, I'm not sure you're being the best you can be.

This reminds me that I "owe" you a response about my take on PUA etc as a path to spiritual/personal growth...but this is not a good place or time for it.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

I agree with elements of your post, where mongers and PUAs can have the same objective, but take different paths to get there.

Right, definitely my view. That said, I don't think that setting up a discussion of how men deal with women or conduct their sex lives as a dichotomy between PUA and mongering is too useful or valid since the large majority of sex on the planet involves neither one.

One throws money at the problem, while the other uses skill. And PUA skills are very transferable to other areas, because it involves developing "people skills", analysis, and problem solving.

I accept your very good point that the skills and attitudes involved in PUA are also useful and important in many many other contexts in life. Fair enough. However, that is a different kind of useful than finding a way to earn money. The money *itself* is useful for many many things, not just the skills you pick up in learning how to earn money (in whatever way).

Ww, you give the impression that you don't know what PUA is, or have a very negative and stereotypical view that doesn't reflect reality.

Tbh, I do have a somewhat negative view of PUA, especially "cold PUA", but mostly for reasons other than those mentioned in or relevant to this thread. So, I'd just as soon not go into them here. I have the vague intention of someday starting a thread with a title along the lines of "The Downside of PUA/nampa"...if for no other reason than to slightly balance the massive "advertising" of its advantages here. I don't think it is a totally bad thing though; almost every form of remotely rational behavior has its pros and cons. You are also correct that I may not understand what PUA is very well; I have never tried it and have never felt the need for it (even when I had nearly no money for mongering); it has never been much more than a minor blip on my radar, so to speak.

In symmetry, you give the impression that you have a very negative and stereotypical view of p4p sex that doesn't reflect reality etc. I note the language you use in the quote above: "throws money at the problem" vs "uses skill". The former phrase is a cliché frequently used to describe spending money in a wasteful or unthinking/needless way; it has negative connotations. By contrast, using skills is normally seen as a positive thing to do and is mostly used in an admiring sense.

It is not for me to throw stones at any monger enjoying his life, but it's not for you to throw stones at PUAs that enjoy their lifestyle or choose a different path besides burning through money.

I'm happy to agree to that "cease fire" and would only point out that the post you made above about mongers being in prideful denial about being unable to attract women or having no other way to attract women etc appeared to me to be casting a fairly heavy stone...and I again note the use of language like "burning through money" that carries strong connotations of wastefulness or foolish spending. For a lot of mongers in my general age and income ranges, it really is much like a luxury hobby...expensive perhaps but no more so than many other forms of recreation that deliver quite a bit less fun and pleasure.

-Ww