Post-approach Game

[Solong]

@Ascent

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but I hope it helps. Many guys new to PUA have the issues you stated, and it's often a transitional phase to becoming better.

What could possibly be going wrong:

1) Goal is start a relationship, NOT just collect contact info.

Many newbie PUA guys focus too much on getting phone numbers that they forget the point. All the e-mails and phone numbers are worthless shit.

You are trying to SEDUCE her, have sex, and/or start a relationship with her. Consequently, what you do should be aligned with this.

If you are not going to have sex with her that night, and intend to meet her another day, you then need to speak of your future together, in a future context, and meeting again (time bridge). More on that, in a bit.

2) Identify Female Attention Whoring

You are never going to eliminate this, but you want to be quick to identify if a woman is interested in you or in just sucking in attention from everyone or guys around her.

A woman can be dressed sexy, loud (to make people look at her), and her eyes are zooming around the room looking at guys and hoping they talk to her, but it can just be for an ego boost at their expense. She can simply want guys to validate that she is attractive.

Such women can give you her contact info. and then simply be feeding off of interactions you and 10 OTHER guys or girls are having with her. Furthermore, she can seek to make you an orbiter. Often a guy being played for a fool and made to wait around for sloppy seconds. She may choose him, among many orbiters, but that can be weeks, months, or years later. Don't be THAT fool.

You ask her out on a date, within 10 days of initial contact. And if she can't or is playing games, dump the contact and move on.

You filter out female attention whores, by putting her to the test. When you start mentioning meeting later, try to kiss her, or pull her to another location then attention whores will start bailing out or freaking out. You have up'd the game past her childish limits or agenda. Good, move on. Don't waste your time.

3) Time bridging

When you meet a woman, and you have no plans to escalate that night or must part ways (work, prior appointment...) then you setup the next meeting. You talk about you and her in the future context and possibility of meeting again.

The trick is do NOT force a verbal answer at that moment, but just gauge her physical and facial reactions. Negative reactions, means you should put her as a lower priority. Positive and enthusiastic reactions mean higher priority.

Very important that you "time bridge" and talk about meeting later or again, so that women see you in that context and not friend-zone or consider you meaningless.

4) Statement Of Intent

When you do e-mail or message her, state you look forward to "meeting her again soon". Again, this clarifies you want to go on dates. Females that are not with meeting you ever again, will often not reply or respond. Good, next!

5) Enthusiasm Checks

From when you meet her and her body language and facial expressions, to her e-mail or message replies, they should appear enthusiastic.

Get in the habit of analyzing her reactions to your words and touch via her eyes, smile, body language, and her verbal responses.

Especially with Japanese women, this takes practice. The best way you are going to learn, is remembering the facial expressions of Japanese women you DID have sex with. My friends and I are good at identifying women who are up for sex, because we remember this. Check out some of my previous posts on identifying women that are up for having sex.

This also goes for messages of women that I had sex with previously. I save them, and look at how the interaction went. I look for repeating patterns. After awhile, you can become better at knowing how the flow of the interaction is going.

And even if you don't have previous successful messages to compare, the key is push for meeting within 10 days. Don't be so timid, that you run around in circles without any conclusion.

6) You Ejecting

"Can't get water from a rock." Don't try to force getting contact info from women that don't seem particularly enthusiastic about it.

Ask her if she would like to meet again or talk more first, then get the contact info. Uninterested women will use that opportunity to not give out the contact info, and that's good, as YOU won. You have filtered her out.

In addition, if the vibe isn't there and you touch tested her or a time bridge/future meeting rejected, then you leave. Don't waste your time. You want to get better at finding positive, enthusiastic, and authentic women. Not play games with FAKE, negative, or conniving women.

7) Flakes

You attempt to minimize flakes by date stacking (check previous thread on this). A date can be pulled from anywhere. Women met online or in person. The key is push towards meeting women that you have their contact info. If you think a woman is flaky, then stack other women into or near her time slot. This way, you are less likely to waste a free day or weekend.

 

[Ascent]

Well if you view it so negatively, it's no surprise they don't respond well to you. If you're embarrassed to do it, they're more embarrassed to be the receiver of a weak approach. Anyway, some of those guys probably are sad, if they have nothing else going on in their life. Others are catching their own fish, and quite successfully at that, and work out, are killing it at their careers, and live life to the fullest! If you don't want to get laid a lot, that's fine. But saying it doesn't work isn't really going to fool me..

More oblique self-aggrandisement and irrelevant assumptions about me. I know it works, my qualms are over how effective it is in comparison to virtually any other method.

And actually, the girls who stop are basically the ones who are going to go all the way pretty often. And I could tell you, but you might not believe, a significant amount of them thank me for the experience on the way out my door.

You screen for the tiny proportion of DTF girls on the street, give them what they want, and they thank you kindly? Why wouldn't I believe this? It doesn't differ from my own experiences on Tinder.

You seem to think that talking to women is shameful.. This probably won't help you get with more women.

I only think wasting my time and that of others is shameful.

Well you call it a brag, I call it a story. If a millionaire wrote down his life people would say it was a brag also, but it's just daily life for him. People write lengthy accounts of their experiences with health providers on this site and I don't see anyone calling it a brag..

When I say brag, I also mean "shameless attempt at self-promotion." People writing reviews on here have nothing to brag about (they just paid for a service after all) and have nothing to gain from speaking favourably of it unless they are posting on behalf of the provider. In which case their "review" is really something else.

Anyway highly negative people who are doubtful of the efficacy of nanpa and focused overly on statistics and "batting average" are exactly the type of students who refuse to listen and learn, and drop out of the game quickly. Nothing personal, but I don't recommend you take a boot camp, even though it doesn't seem like you were considering it

Nothing personal, but paying to hear your particular brand of PUA hucksterism is of no more interest to me than paying my way into one of the establishments you are advertising yourself alongside of.

They wouldn't have gotten much better at all if they were focused on exerting the minimal amount of effort and calculating what % of their approaches are "successful". It's such a toxic mentality it's hard for me to even discuss it..

It's hard for you to discuss it because your business model relies on willful ignorance of the fact top pickup artists are still being rejected by 97% of the girls they approach. A toxic realisation indeed.






Solong, your posts are immensely helpful as always. Though I already read them all when I was lurking and meeting girls online so I am hopefully on top of some of those points.

1) Goal is start a relationship, NOT just collect contact info.

If you're familiar with Roosh, he counsels not asking any personal questions until the girl asks one of you (as an expression of potential interest in you as a person and possible suitor rather than just a genial source of smalltalk), and then getting her name and so on after rapport is established and seguing into a future date proposition or venue change, and only then asking for contact details. If she is not keen on meeting I would just eject rather than collect a worthless number. Since I've had enough of Line IDs which don't go anywhere from both online and in person, I've always been more than happy to screen as much as possible for genuine interest.

Although basically even with girls who changed venues with me or were clearly into me in the initial encounter, they would immediately fade out, procrastinate or otherwise. A numbers game of a different sort it is then, but with so many needed for the odd success to occur that for this to go anywhere approaching strangers I would either be spending eight hours a day in coffee shops or joining dear Sinapse and company in approaching a hundred girls at a time in front of stations. Neither of which sound terribly practical.

That said, rambling away with strangers is a great way of establishing new social connections, but that is not a direct improvement of my situation.

2) Identify Female Attention Whoring

Even during my online adventures, I finally ended up deleting any girl who hadn't met within a week or two, or who procrastinated in response to three proposed meetings, based on my experience and indeed your own writings on the subject. Nobody who isn't willing to meet is worth my time, and I'll invest as little time as possible in establishing that.

3) Time bridging

The trick is do NOT force a verbal answer at that moment, but just gauge her physical and facial reactions. Negative reactions, means you should put her as a lower priority. Positive and enthusiastic reactions mean higher priority.

Maybe I wasn't able to do this effectively, despite what I said earlier about trying to screen as much as possible.

I never had so vast a number of apparently interested girls as to really have to worry about prioritising them.

5) Enthusiasm Checks

From when you meet her and her body language and facial expressions, to her e-mail or message replies, they should appear enthusiastic.

Even with the most enthusiastic girls I approached, there was seemingly no connection with their attitude in person and what they would do once out of sight, so I am clearly still hopeless at this. Online was a somewhat different story though.

6) You Ejecting

If the vibe isn't there, and you touch tested her or a time bridge/future meeting rejected, then you leave. Don't waste your time. You want to get better at finding positive, enthusiastic, and authentic women. Not play games with fake, negative, or conniving women.

There are not many of these women about it would seem.

7) Flakes

With online I had a lot of flakes, but still not enough dates to really need to worry about stacking. With approaching nobody would ever agree to a date so the issue is moot! You are making this sound too easy. If I can approach 2-3 women a day casually, I might manage a few dates a month I would think. Approaching women in local bars would yield far more receptive women but I am lucky if I get near any females most times I go into these places, simply because of how they are set up. Which leaves approaching dozens of women a night at a station exit, or another style of approach entirely.

 

[Sinapse]

You screen for the tiny proportion of DTF girls on the street

Actually I don't really screen for them that much pre-approach. I approach the girls who I like, unapologetically. Sometimes they are into me, sometimes they aren't. You never know which girl will stop and immediately give you the doe eyes.

It's hard for you to discuss it because your business model relies on willful ignorance of the fact top pickup artists are still being rejected by 97% of the girls they approach.

There's no ignorance of it, and I never deny this. Actually, you really do have to cultivate a sort of sick masochism at the rejections until they don't mean anything to you. Yeah, you're going to get rejected a lot. Do you dislike this fact?

The thing I don't understand is that you spend hours sitting in cafes trying to do incidental / easy approaches but don't want to bust some street approaches or go to a club.

2 hours in a cafe waiting and finding approachable girls = maybe 5 approaches
2 hours on the street or at a club going hard = maybe 30 approaches

So if you get to 100 approaches in a cafe and compare that to 100 on the street, we're not really talking about the same amount of "wasted time". It seems that rather than "time wasted" you care about number of rejections received total. Or perhaps I've misread what you're saying?

If you're familiar with Roosh, he counsels not asking any personal questions until the girl asks one of you (as an expression of potential interest in you as a person and possible suitor rather than just a genial source of smalltalk), and then getting her name and so on after rapport is established and seguing into a future date proposition or venue change, and only then asking for contact details. If she is not keen on meeting I would just eject rather than collect a worthless number. Since I've had enough of Line IDs which don't go anywhere from both online and in person, I've always been more than happy to screen as much as possible for genuine interest.

To be honest, his whole "geriatric opener" or whatever he calls it where you just ramble on about your pen or something sounds horribly boring and ineffective. Try it out for sure to see if it works for you, but I'd never recommend someone do that.

I think pickup is actually getting personal as fast as possible.. if you kick the can down the road there's no real connection and any high-status girl isn't interested in some dude who just rambled at her about his smartphone. You'd do much better with a short discussion of what you're doing that day, what she's doing, then nonsensical vibing before slicing into some more emotional content about her values. Exchange contact, and excuse yourself. Bam. Save time, energy, make a stronger connection, get more dates.

 

[Solong]

@Ascent

1) I don't follow Roosh's methodology, and you are going to have put together what works for you.

I'm not saying anything negative against Roosh, but rather don't get stuck, where you are not trying different approaches. It's like a fighting. There are many different styles, and many champions that used different styles. There is no perfect solution. You are going to have to find what works for you.

“Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”
-Bruce Lee

1B) Screening & Filtering Women

I prefer to "screen" women by moving the interaction forward directly OR paint a picture of the
possibilities between me and her. And I ask what can be considered personal questions or small talk, to establish if sex is possible. Buried in the thread " Mastering Time On Dates & Momentum", I went through a list of around 14 questions and points that I often ask and look at.
http://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/mastering-time-on-dates-momentum.8191/

I deliberately paint a picture of if sex or meeting is possible and about the logistics of any future date. This also acts as a very strong filter, because women will consciously or subconsciously pick up the sexual or potential relationship nature of the conversation flow. Those that are with it, respond positively, those that are not will become negative or shut down. It is however, a relatively subtle way of doing it, where it aligns with female double-mindedness and coyness. I never directly say, lets go have sex soon. Rather, I politely "talk around it" and drop hints. By the way, a "trick" that women very often use too. In fact, what myself and many of my swingers pals do, is decode and reverse the game that many women play. How do women like to play their games? Often with verbal and physical "hints" or "suggestions", that they expect you to interpret. Her positive responses to my "hints" and in context to the type of suggestive conversation, usually signals that she is up for sex and/or a relationship.

Ascent, in looking at your comments, you may not be dropping enough suggestive language or giving physical hints of interest (winks, licking your lips, hand on her shoulder, etc...). Consequently, by taking a kind of nebulously harmless and afraid of making a mistake position can leave you with a handful of absolutely worthless contacts OR women trying to put on a fake good girl show. Many Japanese women can absolutely excel at faking and being an actress to present a false public image. "Oh, you are a "good boy". OK, I will play "good girl" for you." And usually that bullshit leads nowhere except the Japanese woman disappearing, being uninterested, friend-zoning you, or perpetually pushing a fake act.

3) Time Bridging & Filtering

Time bridging is very important and another layer of filtering. It is part of pushing the interaction forward. The woman can take the personal questions you asked her, the hints you dropped, and the context of you wanting to meet her later to mean you want to do something with her. 1+1+1=3. We didn't say "3", but any half-way intelligent or adult woman should be able to add and get that number. If the woman is not into you, sex negative or prudish, then fine. She will usually filter herself out.

5) Enthusiasm Checks VS She Just Being Polite

Where I see guys go wrong, is attempting to be a sexless mama boy. Like pretending you have zero sexual interest or passion will allow you to "sneak in" through the back door. And, this is somewhat understandable, because many women are sexually confused and double-minded in their behavior. Thus she will put up the "almost virgin" girl act. Combined, the behavior of the guy and woman, can create ridiculous levels of confusion and fakeness.

As a man, you don't have act like a sexless "good boy". Rather, you simply have to be subtle and how you go about it. And I will take a moment to clarify, acting like a rapist or pervert isn't what I'm talking about either. Subtle means dropping physical hints and suggestive language, so that the woman at least subconsciously picks up that you want to establish a relationship and also she feels safe in the way you are going about it.

An enthusiasm check is you looking at the totality of her behavior, the context of your situation, reactions to you touch testing her, and reactions to your comments. That she is acting polite or in a situation where she feels compelled to be polite, is not true enthusiasm.

. Did she look like that she was in a good mood or looked happy, before you approached her?

This is an indicator that her vibe was genuine and already positive, versus her just putting on a show or fake act for you.

. Does she have some ulterior motive to be polite?

Is she a waitress, bartender, wants to just practice her English, just helping because you are lost or look like a tourist...

. Is she responding positively to you or is it an "up and down" reaction?

Like she was smiling, but when you touched her hand, got all serious looking. When you asked about meeting up later in the week, she started going on an odd rant about being busy...

. Japanese fakeness versus genuine human emotion

Analyze if her behavior looks artificial or "expected" versus authentic human emotional reactions.

6) You Ejecting Versus Identifying Opportunities

The women are there, but you have to look at your role at spotting the more enthusiastic women and taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves.

Once you are successful at picking up a woman, it will become easier to identify those women you are successful with. You will remember the facial expressions and reactions of women that you are successful with, and those you were not. When that happens, all the failures of your past can become golden.

Check out my very 1st PUA post. "Identifying Women Who Will NOT Have Sex"
http://tokyoadultguide.com/threads/identifying-women-who-will-not-have-sex.7747/

Failing teaches you what NOT to do or what negatives to look out for. This helps you eject from situations and dump women faster that are wasting your time. All the experience and failures that you have got so far, can be exactly why you can be more successful in the future.

Michael Jordan, The Greatest Basketball Player of All Time.

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

 

[Solong]

@Ascent @Sinapse

Street VS Cafe/Train VS Bars VS Online VS Social Introductions...

I have swinger pals that are masters at street pickup or clubs/bars, where I'm much stronger in other areas, like cafe and train approaches. ALL places and ways to approach women can work, if the individual guy makes it work.

My opinion is it's a matter of what the guy is best suited for. A combination of how you look, dress/fashion, your behavior, and your personality.

Single Loitering Women

Where I'm a bit different, is as a swinger, I have a harder mountain to climb. Consequently, I'm a strong advocate for "day game" and less aggressive approach styles, where you talk to "loitering" women.

Loitering means the women obviously have free time, and where a 1 to 1 conversation is possible. From experience, it also creates the greatest opportunity for sexual encounters and relationships to happen, because the woman can end up going home or to a hotel at that time, or you can get several contacts (which may lead to relationships later).

Clubs & Bars

It's more effective if you are a better than average looking younger man of a more athletic build, who's fashion matches the vibe and style of the club, that has the right amount of aggression and is particularly good at spotting possible women. This was my style in my 20s, and I pulled more than my fair share of women from clubs.

However, not everybody likes clubs, bars, alcohol, and night life. And the type of aggressive behavior (often alcohol fueled), or closing on drunk women, isn't applicable in other context or day game. Nor does some of the edgy club fashion work, when trying to pickup an office worker or highly educated professional woman. Clubbing and alcohol (and cigarettes) can also be incompatible with your work schedule and your health, especially as you get past 30 and older.

Street

I'm not an advocate of chasing women on the streets for several reasons.

1) Japanese Nampa types, Host club guys, and porn recruiters have given it a bad reputation.

Many women view you as criminal or a low-life right off the bat, or are excessively fearful as if she is in imminent danger.

2) Weather

Rain and cold weather often makes it inconvenient

3) Malls & Shopping Areas

Many women are overly and tunnel vision focused on what they are buying, so are more annoyed by interruptions. They can also be carrying heavy or a lot of bags, so are trying to go home right away.

Furthermore, some women are paranoid about guys approaching them in that situation, thinking they are thieves trying to rob them.

4) Women In A Hurry To Work

A lot of women are in a crazy dash to get to point A to B. Work, appointmens, etc... They have no time to talk, so starting a conversation is pointless.

Street Kings

Now with that typed, I have seen PUA "Street Kings" make it work and I have at times myself.

In Japan, if you are dressed very well (look like money thus considered not out to rob), you speak fluent Japanese, charismatic, and look or give the vibe of being "safe" then you can be more likely to pull it off.

However, what I have noticed, is it often works better when the woman appears to be just standing around, loitering, or walking a bit aimlessly or slowly. Meaning, she has some free time.

"Street" can also mean park bench, popular stairs where people sit, convenience store (like 7-11), video store, outside smoking area, building entrance, etc... So when some guys say they are picking up from off the street, that can be a bit different from what many are picturing.

And timing is important too, like early weekend mornings or after the last train, as everything is more slow and most shopping areas are closed. Again, some guys say street pickup, but the conditions in which they do it can be different than what others are thinking.

Cafes, McDonalds, Donut Shops, Book stores, etc...

The advantage here is high levels of loitering and relaxed women, who feel safer. If you sit next to them or she happens to sit next to you, striking up a casual conversation has a more natural vibe.

@Sinapse, time wise, the number of women you talk to per hour can be about the same as the club or street. Remember that you will spend time, at least 15 minutes, talking to the woman. The club (maybe and if not dead that night) or street can have a higher volume of women in the area, but you can't talk to all of those women at the same time, and the average quality will at least be the same.

Also, alot of times, the difference between street and cafe type game can be simply standing vs sitting. Some guys prefer sitting next to the woman they talk to, where others do more standing/walking, and both are very much an option too.

Trains

Doing trains is like a combination of street and cafe. Sometimes you talk to a woman standing, maybe while waiting for the train, and sometimes sitting with her in the train.

It also has the added benefit of free (as you are going that way from/to work) or very inexpensive.

Online

I consider online as a supplement or side course. Face to face pickups are better, as you know exactly what she looks like. However, online can be a good backup plan B or for stacking multiple dates to avoid flaky women.

Social Introductions & Circles

The issue here is being pulled into group dynamics, often pulled into clubs and alcohol, game playing, and relationship expectations... It can work, with the right group, but it can also be more trouble than it's worth...

Like her girlfriend says you must take good care of her friend, because she is the "best woman in the world" (but actually a crazy nut job or frigid sex prude), as if she's everyone's mother or people must report back to her...

Like your friend wants to hook you up with a fat ugly chick desperate to get married. And refusal, is taken as being unthankful or rude.

Furthermore, the number of women met that way is usually low, though the likelihood of a relationship is greater. Usually nobody's circle of friends is introducing them to a new girl every week. Often more like once a year, for guys (different situation for women).

Another factor is when friends pull you into club and alcohol situations, often the guy could have pulled a woman from there on his own or with 1 wingman. Making the whole large group or workplace politics type situation unnecessary.

So I see social circles, much like online dating. A nice supplement that produces extra fun, but not what I'm going to bet the house on.

 

[Sinapse]

@Sinapse, time wise, the number of women you talk to per hour can be about the same as the club or street. Remember that you will spend time, at least 15 minutes, talking to the woman. The club (maybe and if not dead that night) or street can have a higher volume of women in the area, but you can't talk to all of those women at the same time, and the average quality will at least be the same.

Also, alot of times, the difference between street and cafe type game can be simply standing vs sitting. Some guys prefer sitting next to the woman they talk to, where others do more standing/walking, and both are very much an option too.

There's just no way. I do cafe sometimes as a break from the streets or when the elements demand so. I like it, but there is a relative dearth of targets. Keep in mind we're not talking about time in set, which would probably be about the same, we're talking about the whole process. Go into a cafe, look around and make sure there's a girl you want to talk to, get a drink, sit down somewhere near a girl, talk to her, either it goes well or doesn't, and then what? She stays and you have to leave the cafe or do the questionable stand up, move to another corner of the cafe and open another girl you like (IF there are even two girls you like in the cafe). If not, you have to leave and go to another cafe, get another drink, etc. There's just no way you can get 30 approaches in an hour in cafes unless you're running around like a maniac and acting otherwise very strangely for a cafe setting or spending a lot of time between cafes and buying lots of drinks, which to me is weird and unappealing.

I dont think anyone "prefers" to talk to women when they're walking. Rather, we go where there is the most volume of attractive women, period. That is undoubtedly on the streets (don't think anyone would argue).

Your main reasons for disliking street are along the lines of "it's inconvenient" or "the girl might not like it", but...... so what? It's pretty easy to dismantle these arguments

1) Japanese Nampa types, Host club guys, and porn recruiters have given it a bad reputation.

Many women view you as criminal or a low-life right off the bat, or are excessively fearful as if she is in imminent danger.

If you approach calm and relaxed from a respectable distance, most don't think this at all. There is somewhat of an art to this.

2) Weather

Rain and cold weather often makes it inconvenient

Yeah, except when it's not cold or rainy. And even if it is, I still go out. Shinjuku underground, arcade malls like the Nanba-Shinsaibashi in Osaka, train stations, or large stores like Loft, Tokyu Hands, Donki, fast fashion stores, or department stores are all excellent options.

Many women are overly and tunnel vision focused on what they are buying, so are more annoyed by interruptions. They can also be carrying heavy or a lot of bags, so are trying to go home right away.

Furthermore, some women are paranoid about guys approaching them in that situation, thinking they are thieves trying to rob them.

Again, many women aren't. I would go as far to say most. Even if you're getting rejected by some, who cares, if at the end of the day you've met a bunch of girls who are really excited to see you again. Why latch onto the rejections and worry about percentages?

A lot of women are in a crazy dash to get to point A to B. Work, appointmens, etc... They have no time to talk, so starting a conversation is pointless.

"Crazy dash" being like actually walking really fast, then yeah those are hard targets. Ones which are actually just walking at a normal speed, even if they have no time to stop and chat, are more than happy to keep walking with you in the direction they're going and exchange contact information along the way. Actually, they are happy and excited that even when they were busy or going about their day, they still met an awesome guy who they're excited about seeing again.

Re: girls who are "loitering", this is very rarely girls I'm attracted to. The hottest girls are always on the move, so you have to be as well.

Make no mistake, I am by no means a "street only" type gamer. I do it all, from clubs and bars, to shops, trains, and cafes. The only thing I don't do is online because it's a huge waste of time. At least if I'm getting rejected outside I'm getting sun and exercise, not staring at my phone screen swiping maniacally and competing in a hugely oversaturated medium for the girls who can't get dates from their real life, or are interested in getting only validation. My personal motives are to go after the HOTTEST girls, not the most receptive, most DTF, or those who would be most into me. If I wanted that, I'd go to IPs or troll Roppongi clubs like Jumanji and Gas Panic (used to do this!). But, the girls I like now are rarely there. So any argument based on "probability of receptiveness" or "likelihood to have high ratio of success-to-failure" or anything besides the place where you can talk to the most, hottest girls possible, isn't really going to sway me.

Where I'm a bit different, is as a swinger, I have a harder mountain to climb.

Can you explain what you mean here?

 

[Solong]

@Sinapse

Swinger vs PUA

Swinger guys often have women come to swinger clubs and sex orgies. At times, even on the 1st night. Consequently, we have to have a stronger understanding of women and a particular woman's thought process, beyond simply trying to get a date.

The Streets

I do pickup women on the streets at times and in various ways, as my friends and I are quite opportunistic. I will add that the best guys that I've seen, are those that go for it when the opportunity presents itself. So along those lines, I've picked up at: airports, stripper bars, beaches, parking lots, etc...

When we are talking streets vs cafe type locations, we are really talking being seated vs standing. Being seated provides an additional level of comfortableness and safety, especially for panicky and paranoid type women.

This initial feeling of calm and safety, should not be underestimated. Yes, you can approach on the street in a relaxed manner or meet women that don't have any issues, but there is a statistical difference.

Volume Of Approaches, Street vs Cafes

This where things can be not what they seem. As I do both, I became aware of something interesting. When I got home, the number of contacts collected where the same, and at times more in cafe like environments.

1st, when I mention "cafes", I also mean fast food restaurants like McDonalds, Burger King, Donut shops, etc...

2nd, NOT all cafes are the same. Especially those near train stations or highly popular areas. Women can be coming in and out at a very significant volume, and more than it seems apparent. Lots of women are in and out briefly, for 15 minutes, then they are out.

3rd, you can chain locations together. Meaning, as you learn good places, especially near each other, you can jump between them. And if they are in or near the train station, you can add that environment too. So, it can be a combination of several cafes and fast food joints, plus the trains.

Now, yes, if you chase women on the streets then you can be making more approaches. But, how many of those turn into conversations and results in getting their contacts in an hour?

You still have to talk with women, which takes time. Before you get her number, you will least take 10 minutes, and it can be much longer, like: 45 minutes, over an hour, etc... Consequently, your success in getting contacts per hour, is something you need to make note of.

And in cafe situations and a good spot, women can be sitting next to you. There can be a natural flow of people constantly coming in and out. Some McDonalds or cafes also have multiple floors, so you can simply go up or downstairs and collect more phone numbers.

Furthermore, when you meet a woman on the street, if she is a good prospect then often you will take her to another location to talk more. If not straight to the hotel, so where do you take her?

Starting from a cafe type situation, can eliminate an extra step. The cafe, can also lead to the hotel, home, or a bar for drinks too.

Now with all that typed, a guy who knows what he is doing can make almost any location work. So yes, the street can be good, just depends... And a PUA can have great setup, like a place near a hotel or bar.

 

[Sinapse]

RE: Cafe vs Street, I suppose it might be possible to approach many girls by jumping from cafe to cafe on the hunt.. but bringing it back to OP

Of 70 approaches, about 15 led to Line exchanges or contiguous dates. Nothing came of these 15. This encompassed a month or two of serious daily effort.

That is quite a lot of time and effort for just 70 approaches. If you were diligent about it you could do it in a single day on the street.

Now, yes, if you chase women on the streets then you can be making more approaches. But, how many of those turn into conversations and results in getting their contacts in an hour?

You still have to talk with women, which takes time. Before you get her number, you will least take 10 minutes, and it can be much longer, like: 45 minutes, over an hour, etc...

Ok, so this is where there's a difference. I don't usually spend that long with a girl - it doesn't take long to get the contact info, maybe 5-10 minutes, then if she's busy excuse myself and agree to meet another day.

In terms of approaches

Swinger guys often have women come to swinger clubs and orgies. At times, even on the 1st night.

I do this as well, just never been to a proper swinger club. When I'm not just going for one girl, I go for sets of two girls and pull them with a friend to one of our houses. This has the advantage of them feeling comfortable because they are with a friend, and being repeatable. Sometimes it seems easier to sleep with two Japanese girls than one! But it always develops naturally since there's plausible deniability in a house (ie - "we're going to listen to music / drink!" rather than "We're going to go have sex"), but I imagine you have to kind of broach the subject tactfully and explain to her what it is if she doesn't know. I'm interested in hearing how you frame it so she's cool walking into the swinger club on the first night.

I've never been but I've wanted to go. I'm not sure how to find the address? I have passed the Nemureru bijo no mori (sleeping beauty) a bunch but heard on a thread here that couples kissa are better than happening bars. Mostly I just don't want to pay large sums to get in when I can just do it at my house and I'm not sure if there are any girls inside I would want to sleep with besides the one(s) I'd be bringing anyway. I decided to go with a large group so that if there's nothing inside that we'd at least all have fun anyway, but just waiting for everyone's timings to align

By swinger clubs are you talking about happening bars/couples kissa or something different..?

 

[Ascent]

Actually I don't really screen for them that much pre-approach. I approach the girls who I like, unapologetically. Sometimes they are into me, sometimes they aren't. You never know which girl will stop and immediately give you the doe eyes.

Something like only one in a hundred do, though? Or rather, maybe one in ten do but only one of them goes anywhere.

There's no ignorance of it, and I never deny this. Actually, you really do have to cultivate a sort of sick masochism at the rejections until they don't mean anything to you. Yeah, you're going to get rejected a lot. Do you dislike this fact?

The thing I don't understand is that you spend hours sitting in cafes trying to do incidental / easy approaches but don't want to bust some street approaches or go to a club.

2 hours in a cafe waiting and finding approachable girls = maybe 5 approaches
2 hours on the street or at a club going hard = maybe 30 approaches

So if you get to 100 approaches in a cafe and compare that to 100 on the street, we're not really talking about the same amount of "wasted time". It seems that rather than "time wasted" you care about number of rejections received total. Or perhaps I've misread what you're saying?

There is less time wasted on the street. The number of rejections matter less to me than actually achieving some success on a consistent, repeatable basis. But there are other factors at play here.

My initial assumption was that you could trade time invested per approach (making slow, comfortable, discrete approaches in cafes, etc.) for a higher success rate and maintain an equivalent "women dated per hour" productivity to approaching on the street. Personal experience and discussions with such experts in the field as yourselves has conclusively demonstrated this a false assumption, so in light of that evidence I gave that up in favour of something else.

I am not convinced about street approaching. Yes, I have now approached everywhere but on the street (to no avail), but doing it on the street anywhere near where I live for any length of time is going to result in me being noticed (I mentioned girls I never even met spotting me with other girls... and this is at a big crowded station). If I go further away I am stuck with random girls from all over Kanto, to say nothing of travel time and not having any date logistics.

And, to be honest, cold approaching on the street seems even more desperate than anything I have already tried, so there is that. Seeing the kind of people who are approaching women in the street around here, I can't say it would put me amongst flattering company.

All that said, I am fairly convinced street approaching is the only way I could ever make enough approaches to get anywhere given the improbability of success, so in light of that I do not think cold approaching will be able work for me.

There aren't any clubs near where I am, and the girls in them could be from anywhere and I have had enough of trying to pursue things with random girls from Chiba from online to last me a lifetime. I think Solong would probably have a thing or two to say about the quality/receptiveness of girls in clubs here. Plus I barely drink, hate cigarettes, so that really makes clubs a non-starter for me personally as the only possible reason I have for going to them is to meet girls, and I have no desire to date a bunch of unhealthy hard-drinking smokers.

Drinking establishments with lots of girl groups would probably be the best balance of receptiveness versus time taken, but Japanese bars are simply not set up to allow strangers to approach other tables and hardly ever have women at the counter.
Leaving my seat on a regular basis to chat to women would get me ejected, and messing around trying to nonchalantly approach a table on the way to the restroom is even worse than a coffee shop! The women in them may be ten times as friendly as they are in the day, but I only get to speak to one one in every ten times I venture into such a place. So I give up on those as a waste of time too.

To be honest, his whole "geriatric opener" or whatever he calls it where you just ramble on about your pen or something sounds horribly boring and ineffective. Try it out for sure to see if it works for you, but I'd never recommend someone do that.

It does work. Especially for indirect approaches in environments where striding up to women and hitting on them would get you booted out. But it doesn't work if you factor in time taken per approach. In the same way that approaching on the street is not going to work if people around you start asking "what were you doing talking to all those girls by the station last week?" Hopefully you see my point about that at least.

As for Solong's points about venues and seated vs standing and comfort levels, that was what I thought would be the case - but at the end of the day nothing went anywhere and all I was left with was a very awkward and time-consuming method of approaching women who would often be very into me but still refuse to meet me ever again (and these being Japanese women, I got nothing but sweet dissimulation, lies and silence in response, so there is not much I have to work with in terms of improving myself in response to).

Possibly Solong is speaking about this from a sufficiently high level of experience as to not really be applicable to someone who is not likely to be bouncing random women into an orgy any time soon.

 

[Solong]

RE: Cafe vs Street, I suppose it might be possible to approach many girls by jumping from cafe to cafe on the hunt.. but bringing it back to OP

That is quite a lot of time and effort for just 70 approaches. If you were diligent about it you could do it in a single day on the street.

Ok, so this is where there's a difference. I don't usually spend that long with a girl - it doesn't take long to get the contact info, maybe 5-10 minutes, then if she's busy excuse myself and agree to meet another day.

I'm referring strongly to contacts attained PER HOUR and efficiency. Location or type of approach matters less than results.

Massive number of cold street approaches, but few contacts attained per hour or day offset each other. Low efficiency, can mean there is something wrong about the method used.

The seated approach, is like a spider trap. It's effectiveness depends on where you setup at, and that there is sufficient volume. Which is why train stations, near colleges, or near very popular areas are best.

And the spider need not stay in one place, it can move around too or set traps in many locations.

It is also easier for new PUAs to learn this way, seated approach, because they are often familiar with sitting in clubs and bars.

Furthermore, if it takes you an average of 10 minutes to pull a woman's contact then how many can you get in an hour?

At max, 6. And we both know you can't just jump from woman to woman so immediately. Maybe even the type of woman that you like isn't around. That means the number of contacts attained is more likely 3 or 4 an hour. Guess what? You can get just as many in a cafe, fast food restaurant, or sitting in the train type of environments.

Consequently, street = cafe; or standing/chasing = sitting/trapping.

2nd Locations

I also pointed out the elimination of a step. When you meet a woman on the street, and she is a very good prospect, usually a PUA requests/pulls her to a 2nd location. That's often a cafe or bar. This is to develop more rapport.

Pulling a woman from the street, to a hotel or an apartment (yours or hers) is very hard, and even harder in Japan. As many Japanese women tend to fall into panick, cowardice, paranoia, and hysteria.

The exception usually being a very good setup situation or location, like a cafe or karaoke place, in a hotel. Or, early morning weekend situations near clubs or bars, where women are more relaxed. And where the hotel or apartment is nearby, or you both are very adventurous an up for parks, public bathrooms, inside a car, etc... And brave and adventurous women of that nature are more statistically rare.

So, meeting and talking to women in cafe type location, can be an elimination of a step towards a sexual encounter. You don't have to take her to a 2nd location to clam her down and establish more rapport, because you are already there.

Cafe is to day game, as bar is to night game.

And to hit this point home, when a guy meets a woman in the bar, they can go to the hotel or apartment from there. However, many guys rely on ALCOHOL to do the work for them versus skill or charm.

In day game, the guy must rely on his ability to SEDUCE and tempt women right then and there, not on alcohol to do most of the work.

For newer PUAs, this is what they need to learn to master. Not just collecting a massive number of contacts, which does help, but learning to sexually seduce women.

Many men don't realize that the game women are playing on men is seduction. That short dress, push up bra, panties to make her butt look rounder... physical temptation and seduction. But for men, we must play the seduction game differently. We have to seduce women much more mentally, than physically. A lot of women are even afraid of men physically. They can see muscles, being tall, and masculine features as physically intimidating. And on the flip, they can be equally repulsed and disinterested by weak and effeminate looking men. So men have to learn mental seduction, where you subtly tempt women with the opportunity to have a sexual encounter and she visualizes herself having sex or wanting to be with you.

Tempt with the opportunity, means women consciously or subconsciously know when a sexual encounter is possible. If you are charming or good looking man, and she has the free time, then sex can possibly happen. So whether the approach is while she is standing/walking or while sitting, the opportunity is the SAME.

 

[Solong]

Something like only one in a hundred do, though? Or rather, maybe one in ten do but only one of them goes anywhere.



There is less time wasted on the street. The number of rejections matter less to me than actually achieving some success on a consistent, repeatable basis. But there are other factors at play here.

My initial assumption was that you could trade time invested per approach (making slow, comfortable, discrete approaches in cafes, etc.) for a higher success rate and maintain an equivalent "women dated per hour" productivity to approaching on the street. Personal experience and discussions with such experts in the field as yourselves has conclusively demonstrated this a false assumption, so in light of that evidence I gave that up in favour of something else.

I am not convinced about street approaching. Yes, I have now approached everywhere but on the street (to no avail), but doing it on the street anywhere near where I live for any length of time is going to result in me being noticed (I mentioned girls I never even met spotting me with other girls... and this is at a big crowded station). If I go further away I am stuck with random girls from all over Kanto, to say nothing of travel time and not having any date logistics.

And, to be honest, cold approaching on the street seems even more desperate than anything I have already tried, so there is that. Seeing the kind of people who are approaching women in the street around here, I can't say it would put me amongst flattering company.

All that said, I am fairly convinced street approaching is the only way I could ever make enough approaches to get anywhere given the improbability of success, so in light of that I do not think cold approaching will be able work for me.

There aren't any clubs near where I am, and the girls in them could be from anywhere and I have had enough of trying to pursue things with random girls from Chiba from online to last me a lifetime. I think Solong would probably have a thing or two to say about the quality/receptiveness of girls in clubs here. Plus I barely drink, hate cigarettes, so that really makes clubs a non-starter for me personally as the only possible reason I have for going to them is to meet girls, and I have no desire to date a bunch of unhealthy hard-drinking smokers.

Drinking establishments with lots of girl groups would probably be the best balance of receptiveness versus time taken, but Japanese bars are simply not set up to allow strangers to approach other tables and hardly ever have women at the counter.
Leaving my seat on a regular basis to chat to women would get me ejected, and messing around trying to nonchalantly approach a table on the way to the restroom is even worse than a coffee shop! The women in them may be ten times as friendly as they are in the day, but I only get to speak to one one in every ten times I venture into such a place. So I give up on those as a waste of time too.



It does work. Especially for indirect approaches in environments where striding up to women and hitting on them would get you booted out. But it doesn't work if you factor in time taken per approach. In the same way that approaching on the street is not going to work if people around you start asking "what were you doing talking to all those girls by the station last week?" Hopefully you see my point about that at least.

As for Solong's points about venues and seated vs standing and comfort levels, that was what I thought would be the case - but at the end of the day nothing went anywhere and all I was left with was a very awkward and time-consuming method of approaching women who would often be very into me but still refuse to meet me ever again (and these being Japanese women, I got nothing but sweet dissimulation, lies and silence in response, so there is not much I have to work with in terms of improving myself in response to).

Possibly Solong is speaking about this from a sufficiently high level of experience as to not really be applicable to someone who is not likely to be bouncing random women into an orgy any time soon.

Where you might be having an issue is:

1) Distinguishing between a Japanese woman who is being polite versus genuine interest in you.

Japanese women are known for keeping up a fake act, as long as you are physically in her presence (she thinks it's polite), but then when you have left it's totally different. Even she can be talking shit about you, as if the most vile creature she has ever met, even though she was smiling in your face 15 minutes before. By the way, Japanese complain about this behavior among themselves.

2) Establishing excitement about meeting again.

For instance, some guys blow everything on that first meeting, with an excessively long and harmless good little boy talk. Killing all mystery, killing any sexual tension, and the woman thinks she has you all figured out. Because she thinks you told her everything or she has put you in a certain box.

This is different from dropping hints and activating her sexual imagination, like you know of or have been exploring some secret clubs or telling a story about you finding out your college classmate or co-worker had a secret sex life.

3) Establishing you are special or different from other guys she knows, in a seductive way.

Some women are very simple minded. They see a guy as 1 of MANY approaching them. Unless you establish some type of curiosity or speacial quality, she will forget you the next day.

Some women are like ADHD cats. They are constantly jumping to the next shiny new boy-toy.

Why should she see you again? What is it about you, that can spark her interest?

Too many Japanese women are the type who are very small-minded, narrowly focused, and have tunnel vision in life. That is, like a robot, they can fail to comprehend the world and opportunity around them. They don't realize meeting you is a rare opportunity.

4) Establishing you want to meet again.

Again, some women are more simple minded than they appear. If they meet a guy, and no plans are established to meet again, they DROP contact with him.

This is because, especially when younger and prettier, she can be FLOODED with guys around her. You are just 1 of so many, you are easily forgotten the next day.

5) Failure to establish any sexual chemistry or sexual tension

Also, some women are way more up for a 1 night stand or having a secret sex friend than many think. They can be trying to disguise it and maintain a certain public image, but very much like sex OR desperately want to have fun sex (but dealing with mental conflicts and female double-mindedness).

It's up to you, as the guy, to unlock these women. They are not going to tell or show you directly or they will make you dig it out of her.

If you present yourself as only plain vanilla, then she can pass on you. If you present yourself as vanilla top with juicy banana at the bottom, more women can be wanting to see what the next bite will bring ;-)

Mastering subtle sexual suggestion. From double meaning subtle sexual innuendo in your e-mails and verbal comments/stories, can activate female sexual curiosity subconsciously or consciously. She may want to get to know you more.

 

[Sinapse]

Something like only one in a hundred do, though? Or rather, maybe one in ten do but only one of them goes anywhere.

Again, these are sad statistics indeed. You should be able to get a date from at least 1 / 10 women you approach, easily. Ideally it should be more like 1/5, but this takes a lot of practice.

It does work.

For what? You said you got no dates. If by "It does work" you mean, "they don't run away and talk to me", then sure yeah it works. I thought that wasn't your goal though..

Furthermore, if it takes you an average of 10 minutes to pull a woman's contact then how many can you get in an hour?

10 minutes is on the high end for me, really. Usually it's more like 5 minutes. A diligent street approacher can get probably 20 approaches in an hour (keep in mind the blowouts are only about 30 seconds of your time, if that). The contacts would be anywhere from 3-8, probably, if you're constantly approaching. Again, this isn't easy.

If you can get 3-5 contacts / hour in a cafe setting, that is pretty good! If there are girls there you like, I recommend that as well! Again, people shouldn't assume I'm ragging on cafe game - I'm not. I just think that if you really want to get good at pickup, you have to do everything - street, club, bar, cafe, train, store, social, etc. My personal favorite is street, but I understand it is by far the most "out there" and takes a lot of confidence in yourself to even think about doing. By comparison, yeah sitting in a cafe and sitting near a cute girl is far easier and a great starting point.

I also pointed out the elimination of a step. When you meet a woman on the street, and she is a very good prospect, usually a PUA requests/pulls her to a 2nd location. That's often a cafe or bar. This is to develop more rapport.

I guess that's what "most PUAs do". I very rarely do a cafe bounce after meeting a girl, I do something brief / standing like browse a store quickly or go to a conbini and grab drinks then head straight to my house. The "rapport" or comfort is built by talking and walking along the way (up to 20 minutes). This can be hard for guys who aren't comfortable around attractive women and who can't talk in a flowing, present, and light way ad infinitum. I know pretty much precisely how much time the girl needs based on how she's reacting, and often, it isn't very long. Guys get caught in the mentality of thinking a girl needs a date, or worse, three dates (or more) before she's ready, but what if I told you the date is more for the guy to feel ready than for the girl. If you know the right steps and you take them, a large portion of girls are ready on the first day. There is definitely a skill to identifying the girls who for sure won't go all the way and not being too pushy for it if they aren't down, but by and large most guys are erring on the wrong side of things - waiting too long. If she seems very conservative or not down on the first night, just grab the number and let her go.

Again, the key is to realize the sets you should let go with a number, and the sets which you should push all the way. IF you're just harvesting numbers, my advice would be to have short, powerful interactions like a shot of espresso that leaves her curious and excited and wanting more, rather than going too long and having her be a bit bored or have the mystery wear off to the point she doesn't care about coming out on the date.

Mastering subtle sexual suggestion

I would caveat that with Japanese girls, this needs to be VERY subtle, if at all. You can make the interaction sexy without even doing any insinuation or winky- flirty type stuff, and once you can do this (i.e. solely with eye contact and the way you talk), you'll never go back to doing it overtly.. it's simply unnecessary. However, when you're starting out, it's good to build the muscles consciously to work on this.

Tempt with the opportunity, means women consciously or subconsciously know when a sexual encounter is possible. If you are charming or good looking man, and she has the free time, then sex can possibly happen. So whether the approach is while she is standing/walking or while sitting, the opportunity is the SAME.

I agree.

Oh and.. @Ascent regarding street pickup / learning pickup in general:

The difference between bodybuilding and pickup being, with pickup, once you learn it becomes really really easy and you stop having to put nearly as much effort into it. Bodybuilding on the other hand,, yeah you're never gonna stop having to go to the gym

 

[Solong]

Again, these are sad statistics indeed. You should be able to get a date from at least 1 / 10 women you approach, easily. Ideally it should be more like 1/5, but this takes a lot of practice.

Totally agree. A normal guy should be getting dates with at least around 10%. Just out of blind luck and sheer numbers, 10% should be happening. If not, something is very wrong, like: the guy has some type of physical deformity, extremely overweight, way older or younger than women he is talking to, some type of very odd behavior or way of looking at women (abnormal or strange look in his eyes), dressed terribly, etc...

Sometimes, a guy can be defeating himself. He has put into his mind as women being something they are not (they are too delicate), sex is bad, or that women should reject him. When a guy's numbers are so low, he needs to strongly think about his overall presentation. His grooming (hairstyle, shaving, smell....), his physical fitness, his fashion, behavior, etc...

In the case of getting contacts, but no 2nd dates, is he asking or disorganized? Start with the simple, then move up. I had a friend who would get several woman's contacts after hanging out at clubs and bars. But would put them into his mobile phone like a retard. Phone numbers or e-mails, with no name or mix up the names. Then he would wait like 1 week later to call or message the women, who had totally forgot his silly ass by then. He called one of the women in front of me and pals, and she didn't know who the hell he was. He was trying to explain to her in broken Japanese how he met her and got her number, but she was totally confused. Just freaking hilarious, and had me and other guys spilling our beer everywhere.

Contacts are worthless, if you are not following up on them immediately and asking the women out. The next day or before going to bed, after meeting her, send her a message. "Was fantastic meeting you. Look forward to us meeting again and talking more." Very simple and easy to do. It shows you remembered her and want to go out with her.

Then, after 2 or 3 playful bullshit messages and within 3 or 4 days, ask her out (if you have not already decided on a day when you met). If you want to meet her on Saturday, good to ask her on Wednesday or Thursday. With Japanese women especially, and when you 1st met or never had sex before, you need to ask them 2 or 3 days in advance and NOT on the same day. If you want to meet her on Saturday night, but ask her out on Saturday afternoon, with new women the answer is usually "No". Often she has other plans. Better to ask her and OTHER women 2 or 3 days earlier.

Simple things like that, some guys are totally messing up, and they don't realize can be the difference between getting a date or not.

I guess that's what "most PUAs do". I very rarely do a cafe bounce after meeting a girl, I do something brief / standing like browse a store quickly or go to a conbini and grab drinks then head straight to my house.

Guys get caught in the mentality of thinking a girl needs a date, or worse, three dates (or more) before she's ready, but what if I told you the date is more for the guy to feel ready than for the girl. If you know the right steps and you take them, a large portion of girls are ready on the first day. There is definitely a skill to identifying the girls who for sure won't go all the way and not being too pushy for it if they aren't down, but by and large most guys are erring on the wrong side of things - waiting too long. If she seems very conservative or not down on the first night, just grab the number and let her go.

Totally agree and good. My swingers friends and I call this having a tight setup. This is where your intention is to have sex with the woman, that day and where you are at. In a night club, the bathroom or stairway. Your hotel, then try to pull from the cafe downstairs, and bring women to the room. If an online date, then meet where there are lots of hotels in the area.

And you are right. Many guys assume all or most women are anti-sexual or negative about sex, when in fact, many women do sneak sex all the time. Such women highly enjoy adventurous sex or fantasize about it. Many guys have no clue about the nature of a lot of women, because women who do sneak sex, will usually lie about it. Those women will usually never admit to it up front, you have to TRY and find out. You have to literally feel her vibe or read the woman, and even if you are in doubt, you need to gently and subtly go for it. And that's another key. Many guys are very awkward or clueless about it, they don't understand how to pull the woman towards a sexual encounter.

When a woman is in the mood for sex, it's best for the guy to go for it at that moment. The next time you meet her, she can not be in the mood or she will never meet you again. This is the type of sneak behavior that many women practice, that is not socially acceptable to admit to, and where many guys have not heard about or realize.

Something where we differ, is I don't bring new women (1st date/day) to my apartment, because I like to filter out crazies and females that are bad at sex. I had some bad experiences with crazy women and stalking, so I filter a bit more strongly as a result. If I bring a woman to my place, it's because we had sex already (like a hotel), and I feel she is worth keeping around.

This is plus and minus, and also depends on where you live. I've got some buddies that live/lived very close to Roppongi or major train stations like Meguro. So their game is literally pull women back to their place for drinks. However, if you live somewhat far away from a train station or less popular area, this is much harder to do. Often, if your place isn't a short walk (5 minutes or so) or you need to take a bus, many women get cold feet in a 1st day scenario. Especially Japanese women, where they tend to be more cowardly or panic more. It's often better to setup a hotel situation, where you pull women near there, and the walk is short.

Which that I go for, homerun that day (SNL), or contact for another day, depends on my situation and work schedule. If I need to go to the gym or study, I'm more in a limited time situation, so I might talk to the girl next to me while riding on the train. The whole cafe game, comes a bit from this, where I have to travel from point A to B and away from home. I may have some time to kill, like 1 hour, while away from my place. Since I don't have a setup to pull women directly to a hotel nor extra time, then I focus on contacts.

If it's the weekend or my schedule is open for that day, then I'm more strongly focused on home runs/SNL. However, the cafe, train, and online game can have gone so well, I have several dates already lined up. There is no need for me to go hunting, as my schedule is full of dates. At times, ridiculously so, like I have 3 to 5 dates on the same day and sex with at least 1 is almost mathematically guaranteed. So then, my focus is having a good setup, where I meet my dates at various restaurants that are near hotels.

I would caveat that with Japanese girls, this needs to be VERY subtle, if at all. You can make the interaction sexy without even doing any insinuation or winky- flirty type stuff, and once you can do this (i.e. solely with eye contact and the way you talk), you'll never go back to doing it overtly.. it's simply unnecessary. However, when you're starting out, it's good to build the muscles consciously to work on this.

A trick that I learned, is to make the situation that sex is possible subtly obvious. I talk around it. "I'm off work, and usually finish at 5pm. What time do you finish work? Oh, so you are finished work/school now?" "Presently, I'm not doing anything, except studying. It's good to relax." "Oh, so today you are just relaxing too and reading. I see (and smile at her)" This is just a small bit, of a much larger conversation, but the point is that I established the woman likely has free time and that escalation towards a sexual encounter is possible. You can then suggest to her going to a bar for some drinks, to your place for drinks, etc... Move the interaction towards you being alone together. Many newbie PUA fail to take opportunities being presented or don't even realize there was an opportunity.

If she can't, then you suggest another time. "I'm usually off weekends, and you mentioned that you are off on the weekends too. Looks like Friday or the weekend could be good, which day would you suggest?" (here, she may think that she is in control and decides the day, but of course we want her to pick a day ;-) She then suggests Saturday, and from there, we THEN exchange contact info. The date was set, BEFORE, I got her contacts. Now, she might say that she needs to check her schedule first... "OK, good, then you will tell me the date later (smile). Let's message each other on LINE." Then we exchange contact info, but at least I got a halfway promise of a date. In both cases, the odds are stronger that we will meet again, versus simply exchanging contacts after a chat. And if she says some garbage like she is busy, then I would NOT ask her for her contact info. Oh, well, I'm so busy too.

It's these subtle things that many newbie or less successful PUAs tend to miss that is negatively affecting them. Like pulling contacts from women, that haven't given any indication that they are up for anything in the future. If she hasn't indicated a future meeting is possible, then why be surprised if she doesn't meet you in the future?

 

[Ascent]

Again, these are sad statistics indeed. You should be able to get a date from at least 1 / 10 women you approach, easily. Ideally it should be more like 1/5, but this takes a lot of practice.

Not to quibble, but saying this stuff without qualification is pointless. How and where was the approach conducted, what kind of girl was approached, what sort of screening was done (you are surely prioritising women you think are "possibly" DTF, for example), whether we mean an insta-date or her coming out to see you, whether or not we're talking about the ones which end in sex. I do much better than 1-in-10 approaching in other contexts than cold, but this is not much help if unable to generate them routinely.

For what? You said you got no dates. If by "It does work" you mean, "they don't run away and talk to me", then sure yeah it works. I thought that wasn't your goal though..

I did get girls into dates, but they failed to escalate to sex or otherwise pan out (i.e. afterwards the girl decided to take her train over my place, etc.). If I were to continue doing that I would get some which panned out. So it does work as such. But factor in the time taken, and it is an awful way to approach things as you correctly identify. The success rate was probably the same most guys get in regular cold approaches, in terms of dates promised vs delivered, dates escalated to sex, and the like. But if you are taking ten times longer per approach you are not getting anywhere.

My personal favorite is street, but I understand it is by far the most "out there" and takes a lot of confidence in yourself to even think about doing.

I understand you need to hype what you're doing, but idolising street approaching and trying to paint anything else as being somehow a cop-out is a little much (as you've just implied that men who don't do street approaching are some way lower down on the spectrum of masculine bravure and confidence, as most PUA devotees tend to). Frankly, most of the PUAs I have seen are not very inspiring as rounded people, and the guys I see who are really good with both women and life would never need to approach a bunch of random girls on the street of all things.

And no, I'm not trying to somehow defend the time I invested in daytime cold approaching. Sunk costs are sunk costs!

The difference between bodybuilding and pickup being, with pickup, once you learn it becomes really really easy and you stop having to put nearly as much effort into it. Bodybuilding on the other hand,, yeah you're never gonna stop having to go to the gym.

Even on this I must beg to differ - muscles have "memory", so getting back to where you were after a lapse is usually a cinch, and you can keep your gains or slowly make new ones even with very infrequent gym-going.

If you are reliant on cold approaching or online, you are forever going to have to be investing a certain amount of effort in gathering new prospects due to attrition (by all accounts excessively high with these two methods), or else your social calendar will soon empty out.

I would caveat that with Japanese girls, this needs to be VERY subtle, if at all. You can make the interaction sexy without even doing any insinuation or winky- flirty type stuff, and once you can do this (i.e. solely with eye contact and the way you talk), you'll never go back to doing it overtly.. it's simply unnecessary. However, when you're starting out, it's good to build the muscles consciously to work on this.

A trick that I learned, is to make the situation that sex is possible subtly obvious. I talk around it.

How subtle is too subtle?

I usually try to secure a date quickly, and make it reasonably "tight" whilst also hopefully making sure the girl is on board.

Like asking her when her day off is, and then offering a date for the night before (with other options), or confirming she is OK being out "late" on a specific day.

Does the girl know what is up? Some clearly do, some apparently do not, and some call me out even for this level of indirectness (下心). And in the first two cases the responses are usually the same.

Just being vague about things - "I'm looking forward to seeing you!" - not only leaves certain important logistical questions in the sometimes questionable ambit of the girl, but is also indistinguishable from the mass of social pleasantries even two Japanese people who loathe one another will exchange, so it hard to know what is going on and whether both parties are communicating their genuine interest when engaged in this sort of interaction (although absence of concrete plans within a two week waiting period moves things along, thanks Solong!).

On the other hand, being overt about things usually seems to result in flakes, as does a more overtly sexualised interaction. Certainly the ones who enjoy this sort of thing have a higher chance of merely seeking attention or, if genuinely sexual, having a very full roster and consequently being unbearably flaky.

And actually reading subtle expressions of interest is plainly an art unto itself with Japanese women in particular.

A girl suddenly asking me if I know any stylish bars in my area... this is making it obvious for me, but odd comments or compliments delivered with a particular look or tone, and followed through on by me as a precaution, seem to go either way most of the time.

1) Distinguishing between a Japanese woman who is being polite versus genuine interest in you.

Isn't the only way whether they will come out to see you again? With the rare exception of the "non-tatemae" type Japanese girls, I rarely have any clue what they will do even after having slept with them. Only after 3-4 encounters does it really seem likely they won't randomly disappear.

5) Failure to establish any sexual chemistry or sexual tension

Are there any concrete examples of this you can think of, in person or in text? It comes naturally in English interactions (although these are useless with Japanese girls as their English language competences rarely include being flirted with), but in Japanese I am not always sure where flirtaciousness merely transforms into bluntness, crudity or creepiness, and so tend to be cautious as a result. Non-verbal communication I hopefully have some natural or unnatural aptitude with already at least.

 

[Sinapse]

Not to quibble, but saying this stuff without qualification is pointless.

Cold approach, street, cafe, club, bar, etc. I DO NOT screen for "dtf" girls, I go after only girls I find highly attractive.

I did get girls into dates, but they failed to escalate to sex or otherwise pan out

You can get better at this. So you did 70 approaches and got some dates, what's the problem exactly? Keep going..

I understand you need to hype what you're doing, but idolising street approaching and trying to paint anything else as being somehow a cop-out is a little much (as you've just implied that men who don't do street approaching are some way lower down on the spectrum of masculine bravure and confidence, as most PUA devotees tend to). Frankly, most of the PUAs I have seen are not very inspiring as rounded people, and the guys I see who are really good with both women and life would never need to approach a bunch of random girls on the street of all things.

Hype what? Street? No, its not for everybody, nor do I tell anyone they have to do it if they don't want to. But it is IMO the best and fastest way to get good and meet high quality women anywhere, for free.

A cop out? No.. did you read what I wrote DIRECTLY BEFORE what you quoted? ---

Again, people shouldn't assume I'm ragging on cafe game - I'm not. I just think that if you really want to get good at pickup, you have to do everything - street, club, bar, cafe, train, store, social, etc.

Everything is important, and I do it all (except online). Talking to girls in many of them, like cafes, bars, and clubs, are all generally socially accepted. They are portrayed in movies and media, and most people have this as something "acceptable to do" whether or not they do it themselves. Serially going up to women on the street or in similar high-volume, public places IS NOT. Even within the community of "PUAs" doing street is something only the most dedicated and hardcore do. This is my point about how it's out of most people's realities and takes a lot of confidence. Do you disagree? To me it seems like you still think doing street is "weird" or "creepy", which further provides proof of this.

Anyway, who cares where you are on the spectrum of "masculine bravure" if you're getting the results you want. You've repeatedly said "but I dont wanna do street because it's scary / weird" and this is all I'm saying really. Then I reiterate that street is my personal favorite but you don't have to do it. And then you go back and accuse me of promoting only street. It's getting very circular at this point so let me make it very clear, one last time: I do it all, and you can too. Find whatever way you can approach a lot of women and get better at it, or don't and don't. There we go. If you really want to get better, both Solong and I have given you a TON of advice.

Frankly, most of the PUAs I have seen are not very inspiring as rounded people.

Sounds like you're not hanging around the right ones. I do two kinds of martial arts, weight lift, meditate, read books daily, cook and eat my own fresh food, have a side business and a career, and a large social circle. Most of my "PUA" friends are similarly interested in living a very active, balanced, and healthy lifestyle full of interests outside of pickup. Coincidentally, they also don't feel the need to refer to themselves as "PUAs" but we all regularly go out and pick up. Nobody really knows who you are referring to or who you know who considers themselves a "PUA"... it could just be neckbeard Tim who watched a few RSD videos and likes typing about PUA stuff from his mom's basement in between raids on WoW for all we know.

The guys I see who are really good with both women and life would never need to approach a bunch of random girls on the street of all things.

Well clearly this isn't you or else you wouldn't be on here complaining about how 70 approaches went nowhere, so the point is kind of moot. IF you have a very vibrant social circle, you might have plenty of women coming into your life. Or if you think they have a secret recipe and you are close with them, why not ask them? I'm telling you what works for me, and Solong is telling you what works for him.

 

[Solong]

Not to quibble, but saying this stuff without qualification is pointless. How and where was the approach conducted, what kind of girl was approached, what sort of screening was done (you are surely prioritising women you think are "possibly" DTF, for example), whether we mean an insta-date or her coming out to see you, whether or not we're talking about the ones which end in sex. I do much better than 1-in-10 approaching in other contexts than cold, but this is not much help if unable to generate them routinely.

You do have a point here. The 1 out of 10 is more a generalized rule of thumb, which I have observed to be reasonably consistent, when the guy: is over 22, average income, decent looking, and has some level of skill and experience talking to women. It goes up or down, based on that. Meaning much more highly skilled or better looking guys can get that down to 1 out of 5. Where say, a young ugly guy with no job can expect to do a lot worse, and only 1 out of 20 wouldn't be surprising.

It also depends on what they are referring to. 1 out of 10 to simply get her contacts, a date, or to have sex? Even when I talk with other PUA or swinger types, this can be confusing, and you have to ask for clarification.

For most beginner level PUA, the 1/3 rule is pretty consistent. 1 out of 3 women talked to would exchange contacts. 1 out of 3 of the contacts collected would result in a date. 1 out 3 dates would end in sex. If you talked to 9 women randomly, 3 would give you their contacts, and 1 would go out on a date. If you talked to 27 women, 9 would give contacts, 3 would go out on a date, and 1 would have sex.

Higher level PUAs learn to increase efficiency in various areas to increase their odds. For instance, out of the 9 contacts, get 6 or more dates instead of 3. Have sex with 2 out of the 3 women you go on dates on. So, talked to 9 women, 4 gave contacts, 3 eventually went on dates, had sex with 2. So such a PUA is scoring over 20% or so.

For those who don't understand PUA, math, or some very important details I'm about to explain then they will claim that's low. Such people, often clueless types, are not looking at factors like:

1) Nothing in this universe, ever, is 100% efficient.

No guy is ever 100% effective and has sex with every woman he sees or talks to. Any guy claiming this is a lying idiot. Doesn't work that way for men. Even for the best looking guy, throwing money everywhere. Because if that guy is a 10, talking to women who are also 10s, then those women have many other options besides him. He is going to strike out. So, if he wanted more of a guarantee, he is going to have to go dumpster diving with low level women like 4s and 5s. Even then, he may not want them, or such women distrust him or are a psychological mess. Even dumpster diving, a guy won't be 100%

2) How many approaches was that in day?

If the PUA at 20% efficiency approaches 10 women in a day, he is very likely to have sex with at least 2 (meeting them on separate dates).

3) How many dates was that in a week?

If the PUA has several dates in a week, he is likely to have sex with 1 or more.

4) How many women does he keep seeing after sex?

Meaning in 1 month, that can be at least 4 new women. Even if 3 ran away, and he kept 1 as a continual girlfriend, that can be 12 girlfriends in a year. The PUA can the be juggling multiple girlfriends, while the lazy non-PUA that was laughing or mocking them has none, begging 1 woman that doesn't care about him, or stuck in a bad relationship just so he might get sex occasionally.

So at 20% efficiency or even 10%, a PUA that is persistent and puts in the effort, can have a lot of girlfriends, options, or sexual encounters. Anyway, the key to being a higher level PUA, is learning to be more efficient. Assess where you are at, and then improve as much as you can. As you appear to be trying to do.

By the way, don't fall in the trap of thinking heterosexual men can/should do as women do. The woman's trick is not to go hunting for men, but to sex traps, to bait men into talking to them (to include online now). As you have testosterone, you are wired to chase women more. She then collects dozens of male contacts, chooses, then dates them. Meaning, women can run through an even larger number of men. In fact, some such women get so bored with "just sex", they have disdain for men or charge them money for what should be free or mutual. I mention this, because some beginner PUAs see how easy women have it, and think they can do down that same path. Homosexual men can more likely copy that method, but not usually so for heterosexual men.

How subtle is too subtle?

This is a skill, which is also reflective of your personality, and depends on the woman you are talking to. Nobody can say for sure. The best way to think of it, is as sexual innuendo or hints. You want to become very good at this game. This is also the game many women are playing too. She won't tell you directly to come "Fuck me now!". Usually, she will drop physical and verbal hints and expect you to pick up on them.

Even without hints, what most PUA instructors teach, is push to failure or success. You escalate; verbally (sexual stories and innuendo), physically (body language, touch testing...), and geographically (private place to kiss, hotel, etc...) until conclusion.

Think of it like Boxing. With sexual hints and innuendo, you are like an expert Boxer with a jab and excellent footwork. Without this, you are bull rushing fighter just swinging powerful punches. Now yes, as just a strong puncher, you can win some fights. But such guys almost never become champions or even get above journeymen. Your win/loss record will usually look terrible. However, develop that jab, movement, defense, and footwork and expect the win/loss record looks better.

And actually reading subtle expressions of interest is plainly an art unto itself with Japanese women in particular.

A girl suddenly asking me if I know any stylish bars in my area... this is making it obvious for me, but odd comments or compliments delivered with a particular look or tone, and followed through on by me as a precaution, seem to go either way most of the time.

Women, in general, can be very contradictory or confusing because of social and religious traditions and stigmas concerning sex and female sexuality. Furthermore, women are high estrogen beings. So, they are usually going to be more timid and cautious than men. She might want to fuck your brains out or not mind, but she is full of all kinds of internal conflicts, and very much worried about her public image and/or that you might say or think anything negative about her (like she's a slut).

Japanese women take this 1 step further, with the tatemae and honne concept. Making their true emotions as hard to read as possible, and even telling bold face lies to hide her true feeling or hide anything that might be embarrassing.

Consequently, reading Japanese women will come from experience and learning to pick up on the subtle. And where your ability to read women or to provide subtle hints fails, then you fall back on pushing the date to a success or fail conclusion anyway.

On the other hand, being overt about things usually seems to result in flakes, as does a more overtly sexualised interaction. Certainly the ones who enjoy this sort of thing have a higher chance of merely seeking attention or, if genuinely sexual, having a very full roster and consequently being unbearably flaky.

Being too overt fails, because to many women, it's like you are saying she is a prostitute or slut. They want to project the public or false image that they are "not that kind of girl", even when she is or she wants to have sex with you. Women also tend to be more timid and fearful, so can think the absolute worse about a situation more easily. That you are a rapist, pervert, trying to hurt her, etc...

By being subtle at first, you are helping to comfort and calm the woman, yet show physical interest. Think of it like playing with a scared mouse or squirrel. They have to feel safe and that they can trust you first, then you can pet them. It can be annoying to men to have to play such games, but that's how it is, so better you learn to be good at playing such games.

 

[Ascent]

Cold approach, street, cafe, club, bar, etc. I DO NOT screen for "dtf" girls, I go after only girls I find highly attractive.

You're already mixing in venues featuring alcohol and where approaching is "warm", so it underscores my point about the lack of clarity in these discussions! 10% dates on random cold approaches on the street would be doing extremely well.

I think before you said your entire process is essentially screening for "DTF" girls but whether this plays into
My supposition is that it would, and you'd eventually be gravitating towards just the kind of girls who reward such behaviour.

By chance I was reminded of a thread elsewhere I looked over again briefly today:

"PUA Master Quest! Updated daily!!"
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=168088273&page=32

Women Status Since 4/8/2015

Women Approached: 54/151
Numbers Collected: 32/151
Women Dated: 4
Women Bedded: 1/8

"There but for the grace of God go I"? I have serious misgivings about the way cold approaching is promoted as a method in light of the discrepancies between stuff like this and being told "you must have some kind of physical deformity if you are not getting dates from 10% of the girls you approach!"

You can get better at this. So you did 70 approaches and got some dates, what's the problem exactly? Keep going..

Only so much better. The statistics I mentioned previously have PUAs ranging from top to regular ones with cold approach success rates in the low single digits. Doubling them might take you from 1% to 2%, still dire. I know you hate to acknowledge them, but they are what they are.

The method itself is intrinsically limited by the random circumstances surrounding the woman and one's inability to know any of them prior to approaching.

Talking to girls in many of them, like cafes, bars, and clubs, are all generally socially accepted. They are portrayed in movies and media, and most people have this as something "acceptable to do" whether or not they do it themselves. Serially going up to women on the street or in similar high-volume, public places IS NOT. Even within the community of "PUAs" doing street is something only the most dedicated and hardcore do. This is my point about how it's out of most people's realities and takes a lot of confidence. Do you disagree? To me it seems like you still think doing street is "weird" or "creepy", which further provides proof of this.

I don't know if it is weird (certainly it is perceived as such), it's undeniably a pretty desperate move though. That's not the same thing as confidence.

I did think cafes were a socially accepted way of approaching women here from portrayals and I what I read, but based on some of the responses I got and the fact I never once saw any sort of approach occur in such a venue, I'm inclined to think they are virtually the same as the street in practical terms (receptiveness and acceptability).

Most of my "PUA" friends are similarly interested in living a very active, balanced, and healthy lifestyle full of interests outside of pickup. Coincidentally, they also don't feel the need to refer to themselves as "PUAs" but we all regularly go out and pick up. Nobody really knows who you are referring to or who you know who considers themselves a "PUA"... it could just be neckbeard Tim who watched a few RSD videos and likes typing about PUA stuff from his mom's basement in between raids on WoW for all we know.

I rather suspect you are including a bunch of guys who pickup in bars and other typical situations in your "PUA friends" - I mean nampashi and guys approaching thousands of girls in the street.

And the side business in question wouldn't be selling your PUA coaching services, now would it? Or would that be the career...

Well clearly this isn't you or else you wouldn't be on here complaining about how 70 approaches went nowhere, so the point is kind of moot. IF you have a very vibrant social circle, you might have plenty of women coming into your life.

Clearly I have a lot to learn about how to effectively meet women in Tokyo.

I'm telling you what works for me, and Solong is telling you what works for him.

Solong is telling us his experiences, you are proselytising and self-promoting.

If you talked to 27 women, 9 would give contacts, 3 would go out on a date, and 1 would have sex.

I assume you mean general cold approach? Or through any method? Sex with 3% seems realistic, if a little on the understated and optimistic side given the scale of effort involved in approaching and dating these kinds of numbers of women

Comparing different methods of meeting women, which of course means having to try them all, and optimising each step of the process (I certainly improved a lot in post-meeting game from online, pity I could not secure any meetings to use it on after giving it up) is about where I find myself.

And it's why I moved on from both online and attempting to make contact in cafes (both resulted in far more time spent trying to meet women than ever spent in their company)... hopefully onto better methods, if those can be made to work!

The woman's trick is not to go hunting for men, but to sex traps, to bait men into talking to them (to include online now). As you have testosterone, you are wired to chase women more. She then collects dozens of male contacts, chooses, then dates them. Meaning, women can run through an even larger number of men.

Having seen the discrepancies between these approaches, it can at times be terrifying to see the ease with which even mediocre specimens can rack up huge stables of suitors, particularly in comparison to the level of energy and resources needed for a man to have even inconsistent success. Although no fifty-year-old woman is able to pull twenty-year-old guys routinely so I don't envy the brevity of their moment in the sun.

I recall one hostess I had an encounter with off Tinder showed me her 2,000 matches - it was a near miracle I caught her attention with a witty opening before being drowned in that lot. On the other hand, even a fattie who tricked me into meeting had 700 matches around to massage her folds.

Offline is scarcely much better for some types of women - I don't even bother trying it on pretty service staff who work around lots of men, if she has a dozen guys fawning over her every day and worked there for some time, the odds are scarcely better than Tinder.

However, develop that jab, movement, defense, and footwork and expect the win/loss record looks better.

It's a helpful metaphor, although sadly when dealing with such subtleties rather than see the opponent stagger (or the woman's arousal increase) it tends to result in success or failure far removed in time and space from the successful blow.

Consequently, reading Japanese women will come from experience and learning to pick up on the subtle. And where your ability to read women or to provide subtle hints fails, then you fall back on pushing the date to a success or fail conclusion anyway.

If in doubt, just push for a date and cut her lose if she won't meet! I prefer the subtle stuff but this is all there is to do in most cases it seems, when the available evidence as to her intent consists of a few polite sentences on a screen.

 

[Solong]

You're already mixing in venues featuring alcohol and where approaching is "warm", so it underscores my point about the lack of clarity in these discussions! 10% dates on random cold approaches on the street would be doing extremely well.

I think before you said your entire process is essentially screening for "DTF" girls but whether this plays into
My supposition is that it would, and you'd eventually be gravitating towards just the kind of girls who reward such behaviour.

By chance I was reminded of a thread elsewhere I looked over again briefly today:

"PUA Master Quest! Updated daily!!"
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=168088273&page=32



"There but for the grace of God go I"? I have serious misgivings about the way cold approaching is promoted as a method in light of the discrepancies between stuff like this and being told "you must have some kind of physical deformity if you are not getting dates from 10% of the girls you approach!"



Only so much better. The statistics I mentioned previously have PUAs ranging from top to regular ones with cold approach success rates in the low single digits. Doubling them might take you from 1% to 2%, still dire. I know you hate to acknowledge them, but they are what they are.

The method itself is intrinsically limited by the random circumstances surrounding the woman and one's inability to know any of them prior to approaching.



I don't know if it is weird (certainly it is perceived as such), it's undeniably a pretty desperate move though. That's not the same thing as confidence.

I did think cafes were a socially accepted way of approaching women here from portrayals and I what I read, but based on some of the responses I got and the fact I never once saw any sort of approach occur in such a venue, I'm inclined to think they are virtually the same as the street in practical terms (receptiveness and acceptability).



I rather suspect you are including a bunch of guys who pickup in bars and other typical situations in your "PUA friends" - I mean nampashi and guys approaching thousands of girls in the street.

And the side business in question wouldn't be selling your PUA coaching services, now would it? Or would that be the career...



Clearly I have a lot to learn about how to effectively meet women in Tokyo.



Solong is telling us his experiences, you are proselytising and self-promoting.



I assume you mean general cold approach? Or through any method? Sex with 3% seems realistic, if a little on the understated and optimistic side given the scale of effort involved in approaching and dating these kinds of numbers of women

Comparing different methods of meeting women, which of course means having to try them all, and optimising each step of the process (I certainly improved a lot in post-meeting game from online, pity I could not secure any meetings to use it on after giving it up) is about where I find myself.

And it's why I moved on from both online and attempting to make contact in cafes (both resulted in far more time spent trying to meet women than ever spent in their company)... hopefully onto better methods, if those can be made to work!



Having seen the discrepancies between these approaches, it can at times be terrifying to see the ease with which even mediocre specimens can rack up huge stables of suitors, particularly in comparison to the level of energy and resources needed for a man to have even inconsistent success. Although no fifty-year-old woman is able to pull twenty-year-old guys routinely so I don't envy the brevity of their moment in the sun.

I recall one hostess I had an encounter with off Tinder showed me her 2,000 matches - it was a near miracle I caught her attention with a witty opening before being drowned in that lot. On the other hand, even a fattie who tricked me into meeting had 700 matches around to massage her folds.

Offline is scarcely much better for some types of women - I don't even bother trying it on pretty service staff who work around lots of men, if she has a dozen guys fawning over her every day and worked there for some time, the odds are scarcely better than Tinder.



It's a helpful metaphor, although sadly when dealing with such subtleties rather than see the opponent stagger (or the woman's arousal increase) it tends to result in success or failure far removed in time and space from the successful blow.



If in doubt, just push for a date and cut her lose if she won't meet! I prefer the subtle stuff but this is all there is to do in most cases it seems, when the available evidence as to her intent consists of a few polite sentences on a screen.

In reading your post, it occurred to me to add some points that you might find useful.

1) Approaches per day.

In 3 hours, I can usually make 27 cold approaches. 9 approaches in 1 hour. And using the cafe/train style. This can result in dozens of dates and sexual encounters, depending on the PUA.

This is the math you have to understand, to understand how PUA is successful. 27 approaches in 7 days, isn't the same as 27 in 1 day.

It is a legitimate question to ask if a PUA is putting in the right amount of effort? Pussy isn't going to sneak up on man while he is fearully cowering or asleep in a corner. The methodology of women, won't work for men. For guys, being proactive is usually the most rewarding.

2) Don't Be Lazy

Also, I'm very opportunistic, and advise any PUA to be too. Despite having a preference for where to meet women, I don't ever limit myself when seeing an opportunity. If I'm in a 7/11 and see a woman that looks promising, I'm going to talk to her. If I'm in a cafe or McDonald's and zero is going on after 30 minutes, I will get up and go elsewhere. I usually have already scouted out several locations to check out, so will jump if need be...

My date tonight was a model-ish looking knockout, many would rate a 9 or 10. Met her, at a 7/11 by the way. And no, I'm not always so lucky. It's more I went for it when the opportunity was there.

"Luck is when skill and opportunity come together. "

3) Fear of rejection

A PUA, no matter his style or technique, must overcome cowardice and fear of rejection. Those are your biggest enemy, and that is what you must stomp out of yourself, if you expect to improve.

Every person can be afraid or apprehensive, but as men, we are expected to overcome this. Take on the warrior mentality. No matter the odds or how difficult it might seem, keep swinging to the end. After all, in PUA, you are just starting a conversation and not charging a machine gun ;-)

 

[John Chavers]

In 3 hours, I can usually make 27 cold approaches. 9 approaches in 1 hour.

. Do you hand out ticket numbers to passing JAPANESE women? "Number 14, DING! Please come and claim your sleazy approach"

This can result in dozens of dates and sexual encounters, depending on the PUA

I find this math highly suspect.

 

[matt_j]

Yeah. I was waiting for a friend outside of Shinjuku station last weekend and had a highly amusing time watching a guy who could star as Fred, if another live action version of the Flintstones was ever made, lurking about the exit and approaching every decent-looking woman walking by. None showed anything except mild disgust---find it hard to believe that results in anything but total bottom of the barrel, if ever successful. But, yeah, if you've got the time and no other hobbies or interests...

"So, what did you do last weekend?"

"Just loitered around Shinjuku station trying to pick up women."

 

[just4fun]

Yeah. I was waiting for a friend outside of Shinjuku station last weekend and had a highly amusing time watching a guy who could star as Fred, if another live action version of the Flintstones was ever made, lurking about the exit and approaching every decent-looking woman walking by. None showed anything except mild disgust---find it hard to believe that results in anything but total bottom of the barrel, if ever successful. But, yeah, if you've got the time and no other hobbies or interests...

"So, what did you do last weekend?"

"Just loitered around Shinjuku station trying to pick up women."

OMG.........now that's a perfect description of.......

 

[bruv]

kinda strange but interesting, the morally higher-than-thou attitude around here towards people attempting to take responsibility for their own dating/sex lives. On a forum open-minded and progressive enough to be morally okay with prostitution.

 

[TokyoJoeblow]

OMG.........now that's a perfect description of.......

;-)

 

[Ascent]

I'm again struck by a certain suspicious if not dangerous sense of unreality stemming from some of the advice proffered here.

My first time back in a Starbucks since the summer, after having a very nice chat with a 19-year-old which nonetheless ended with her declining a venue change (on terms I had any use for at least) and me leaving the establishment for pastures greener, I was accosted by the young and quite pretty assistant store manager, who proceeded to tell me I was not allowed to talk to other customers as somebody had apparently seen me do this and sent the store some kind of written complaint about someone talking to people he did not know, and how the disturbing prospect of this happening to them was damaging to the establishment's atmosphere - Japan is simply "still not used to" the prospect of inter-stranger communication, she apologised.

She also mentioned she had witnessed poor reactions to pickup in one of their Shinjuku stores (but none in mine, perhaps as I am the only one doing it around here...) and that they too had similar rules against the evils of men talking to unfamiliar women, claiming that my non-Japaneseness had nothing to do with it either. Apparently it was not one of the girls I spoke to, either, but some interfering busybody.

Whilst defending my position whilst hitting on the manager would have been the best course of action I feel, having just failed with the last girl I was more interested in getting on with matters and could only concede whilst I in no way agreed with any of what she was saying, I wasn't going to either protest or go in there again no matter how "welcome" I was to silently sit next to their girls.

And, no, I never got harshly blown out or involved in any kind of scene, knowingly talked to a minor or continued talking to anyone who showed absolutely no interest, and the manager herself conceded she had seen girls I was with enjoying our conversations. In total I only - as discretely as possible - approached 10-20 girls in this venue over a span of some weeks or months. I've no idea if I've been barred from the other stores in the area and no desire to check by going in them, but if a few letters were sent out it would not seem improbable.

Are you people living in some kind of alternative Tokyo where none of this stuff happens? How on earth could you approach nine girls in a hour in a coffee shop and not have someone notice and toss you out? Or bounce around approaching in a bar or station without staff ever batting an eye? Do you never go to the same place twice or something?

Otherwise, it's an ultimately pointless passive aggressive Japanese-style cockblocking anecdote which simply underscores approaching en masse in shops is not a terribly workable way of meeting women.

In any case, I already succumbed to the dubious lure of Sinapse's position and started tentatively trying my hand at getting ignored by scores of impassive women in the street, although the cold and ubiquity of earphones and surgical masks is not helping matters.

 

[Sinapse]

Are you people living in some kind of alternative Tokyo where none of this stuff happens? How on earth could you approach nine girls in a hour in a coffee shop and not have someone notice and toss you out? Or bounce around approaching in a bar or station without staff ever batting an eye? Do you never go to the same place twice or something?

Yeah, I wouldn't camp out any one store or spot too long. I like staying constantly moving around. I've had some cockblocking staff - often managers who hover near me or occasional dirty looks from randos. But never anything like you mention. But I tend to leave most businesses to carry on with their business and don't linger around too long inside.

earphones and surgical masks

We call this their "armor". Interestingly, a lot of girls aren't actually even listening to music. It's just anti- (bad) nampa headphones. You can gesture for them to take them out. If you are in the set longer than a couple seconds, they will often oblige you.